Player Discussion Alexis Lafreniere

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

Yes they were very different players when CK was younger. When CK was younger he used his speed much more as a threat to score off the rush.

ck-no matter the edition, past, current, future-will always be way more different and distinct over 13. one can try and bridge the gap between both via scoring stats but what ck offers is way way more than scoring. the guy kills penalties, has a jet engine, and try moving and bumping him - the dude is almost literally a steel wall. he even scores short hand goals.

 

[mas0764]

But Kreider has always done things that Laf does not.

Kreider did not do those things when he was 21, he was too busy scoring 3 points in 23 games.

This is where the narrative goes off the ridiculous deep end. Yes, Lafreniere is a disappointment. No, he may never be the 1OA we thought we were getting. Yes, he's still way ahead of where Kreider was at 21, 22 years old. He has different abilities but he can be that LEVEL of player in terms of effectiveness - ie, a second line caliber player for most of his career.

 

[Profet]

Kreider did not do those things when he was 21, he was too busy scoring 3 points in 23 games.

This is where the narrative goes off the ridiculous deep end. Yes, Lafreniere is a disappointment. No, he may never be the 1OA we thought we were getting. Yes, he's still way ahead of where Kreider was at 21, 22 years old. He has different abilities but he can be that LEVEL of player in terms of effectiveness - ie, a second line caliber player for most of his career.

Kreider always had that dangerous burst of speed.

I'm not even sure what you are trying to say... Kreider came into the playoffs and lit the world on fire with his physical play and his 5 playoffs goals as rookie with no regular season games played.

 

[CLW]

Laffy is with Panarin and Chytil now in practice. Just use this and stick with it. They will leak goals but Laffy needs to learn to pick up his man at some point during the season. Panarin too. Hopefully they'll score lots. Fil has looked strong even in a red jersey.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Laf on the "second" line

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

Kreider did not do those things when he was 21, he was too busy scoring 3 points in 23 games.

This is where the narrative goes off the ridiculous deep end. Yes, Lafreniere is a disappointment. No, he may never be the 1OA we thought we were getting. Yes, he's still way ahead of where Kreider was at 21, 22 years old. He has different abilities but he can be that LEVEL of player in terms of effectiveness - ie, a second line caliber player for most of his career.

Kreider was also mishandled when he was young.

Kreider looked ready to take on a 2nd line role full time during the 11-12 playoffs.

Of course, that meant under Coach Dick (Tortorella) he could barely stay in the lineup at all the next season.
Same for Mats Zuccarello during 2012-13.

Which meant for both of them 2013-14 was their first full season, and they contributed at decent levels for players playing their first full season in the league but didn't contribute the way I felt they would've with more experience in the playoffs. And our biggest need in the playoffs in 2014? More scoring.

Based on his 2011-12 playoffs, Kreider should've been scoring 30 goals a year for the past decade. It took the team almost 10 years for him to develop into a very good player.

It's a bit revisionist to compare Laf to Kreider as if Kreider is some smashing success of Rangers' player development. He's a good player, and he's a borderline All-Star now, but you can't say that if you were watching his 2011-12 playoffs, that 2012-2021 wasn't a disappointment.

It would be nice if the team could develop a forward in a reasonable amount of time. Kreider's lack of production in 2012-13, is not a knock on Kreider so much as an indictment of the org handling him the same way as they handled most scoring prospects.

My biggest issue with Laf is that I don't see him being committed to getting bigger, stronger, faster, more skilled. THIS was his make or break offseason, and THIS is his make or break year. I see a guy who trains an average amount for an NHL player. Which means he's going to be an average NHL player. So unless someone gets through to him and lights a fire in his belly to be the best player on this team and one of the best in the league, I see an average player who is content to contribute somewhat more than average, based on his skill, to an NHL roster. And from a 1OA, that's incredibly disappointing.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

Laf on the "second" line

switch 13 with goodrow.

does cuylie show any signs that he can motor? if yes then that line can be productive.

 

[NickyFotiu]

switch 13 with goodrow.

does cuylie show any signs that he can motor? if yes then that line can be productive.

Against Boston that Cuylle line did pretty well.

Goody should not be on the second line and Laf should not be on the 4th line imo.

Here is the way I look at it even the people that do not like Laf and call for him to be traded should want him playing well. In the off chance Laf is to be traded the Rangers can only benefit by him playing well.

 

[Profet]

Against Boston that Cuylle line did pretty well.

Goody should not be on the second line and Laf should not be on the 4th line imo.

Here is the way I look at it even the people that do not like Laf and call for him to be traded should want him playing well. In the off chance Laf is to be traded the Rangers can only benefit by him playing well.

100% I really truly want Laf to come out playing well. And I think him just being in a structured system will help him considerably.

I just don't think the talent is there. I think it's all downhill from here in regards to his trade value.

I'm hopeful it's not, but I don't think he amounts to anything more than a 2nd/3rd line tweener journeyman.

Today he would not pass through waivers. Another substandard season though?

 

[RangerBoy]

100% I really truly want Laf to come out playing well. And I think him just being in a structured system will help him considerably.

I just don't think the talent is there. I think it's all downhill from here in regards to his trade value.

I'm hopeful it's not, but I don't think he amounts to anything more than a 2nd/3rd line tweener journeyman.

Today he would not pass through waivers. Another substandard season though?

Are you running for village idiot on this board?

 

[Profet]

Are you running for village idiot on this board?

Sick Bern.


Curious which part you disagree with?... Because I need a laugh.

 

[RangerBoy]

Also... let's dispel the whole "but he gets points" thing...

His linemates, Kakko and Chytil took massive steps forward in both GP and points. Both of them doubling the number of points they had the previous year.

Laf had an improvement of 8 points.

The dude is a passenger. Those 8 points are easily attributed to the progression of Kakko and Chytil.

Trade him now before the rest of the league realizes it.

On top of that, New York’s first unit power play is so lethal that Lafrenière has barely sniffed the man advantage. So yes, Lafrenière hasn’t accomplished enough yet, but it’s virtually impossible to rack up big point totals when you’re playing on the third line, with barely any power-play time. When you account for that context, you realize that he’s shown some promise, even if it’s not at the level you’d hope from a No. 1 pick. Since entering the league as a rookie, Lafrenière is tied with Panarin, Alex Killorn, Bo Horvat and Phillip Danault in terms of five-on-five goals, and he’s scored more than Andrei Svechnikov, Tyler Toffoli, Mika Zibanejad and Rickard Rakell.

Draft bust or breakout candidate? 10 hotshot U23 NHL players that need to step up

Will these promising young players finally put it together and reach their NHL potential this season?

theathletic.com

Over the last two seasons, Lafreniere actually produced quite well for someone who wasn’t given much time in the top six. Dating back to the start of the 2021-22 season, he's recorded 0.87 5-on-5 goals per 60 minutes, ranking him in the 83rd percentile of all skaters that played at least 500 minutes in that span, according to NaturalStatTrick.com.

5 NHL players poised for breakout seasons in 2023-24

Will this be the year Alexis Lafreniere finally reaches his potential? Can Rasmus Sandin build on last season's strong finish?

ca.sports.yahoo.com

 

[bhamill]

One of my favorite things lately is the narrative about hits being poorly tracked but apparently tracked well enough that it can be be proclaimed that all of Laf's hits are ineffective. Hahahaha. And before you hit me with the "eye test," I watch all the games too.
It's pretty reminiscent of how all of his goals were garbage and could be scored by anyone...
Look, no one is satisfied with his development/play... but this PTO nonsense is just that, nonsense. He was already a strong middle six winger in his D+3. He hits more than any forward not named Trocheck and since joining NYR straight out of Juniors has been our third leading goal scorer at even strength... But he had 4 underwhelming pre season games on his off wing learning a new system, so let's f***ing waive him...
Is this what you want from a 1OA? Of course f***ing not, but some of these takes are surface of the sun blazing hot.
I'd advocate trading him at this point just to make this board less crazy, but you KNOW they wont get value for him and it will just be WORSE around here. Imagine if he actually put it together after being traded... this place would be intolerable. Hahaha. The Buch Trade meltdown, on mega steroids.

 

[NickyFotiu]

100% I really truly want Laf to come out playing well. And I think him just being in a structured system will help him considerably.

I just don't think the talent is there. I think it's all downhill from here in regards to his trade value.

I'm hopeful it's not, but I don't think he amounts to anything more than a 2nd/3rd line tweener journeyman.

Today he would not pass through waivers. Another substandard season though?

So far I think Laf is a solid not spectacular 3rd line player. I'm hoping this season he can find his way to becoming a 2nd line player but he has not been at that level yet in his career. I also share the concerns about his skills. I'm mostly concerned about his skating and to a lesser degree his puck handling. Think his backhand is good. I think his forehand could be good if he becomes more accurate at finding open areas of net. I think the first 40 games of this season will probably be important to both the coaches and our GM.

 

[DavidpauseReinbacher]

Guys have an opportunity to show their skills everytime they get on the ice. It doesn't just happen when playing on the first line and your 18th minute of a game. Guys can show their talents on 3rd line on their very first shift. Guys can show their talents in practice. Show your talent. When you do that coaches will want you on the ice more and more.


If you have the talent and desire a full summer of training can make a huge difference imo. If you don't have the underlying talent then not so much.

Yeah cant wait to see bedard show his talents on third line tonight.

 

[TomBlizzy12]

One of my favorite things lately is the narrative about hits being poorly tracked but apparently tracked well enough that it can be be proclaimed that all of Laf's hits are ineffective. Hahahaha. And before you hit me with the "eye test," I watch all the games too.
It's pretty reminiscent of how all of his goals were garbage and could be scored by anyone...

He's also willing to block shots

Which 3/4 of the team is allergic to doing

 

[NickyFotiu]

Yeah cant wait to see bedard show his talents on third line tonight.

You mean like Crosby, Gretzky and others showed their skills double shifting on the 4th lines with borderline NHL players at times? If you think some guys can only show their skills if they play with elite players than you don't have a high opinion of them.

 

[bhamill]

He's also willing to block shots

Which 3/4 of the team is allergic to doing

Block shots, stand up for a teammate, more things that are poorly tracked!

*Again, before someone feels the need to remind me: yes I know we should be getting much more from a 1OA...

You mean like Crosby, Gretzky and others showed their skills double shifting on the 4th lines with borderline NHL players at times? If you think some guys can only show their skills if they play with elite players than you don't have a high opinion of them.

When they were developed generational NHL players. You aren't going to quickly develop as a first line player just playing the fourth line...

 

[NickyFotiu]

When they were developed generational NHL players. You aren't going to quickly develop as a first line player just playing the fourth line...

I agree but I never said anything in regards to that. I said that players have an opportunity to show their skills every time they step on the ice. That does not have to be on the first line, second line, third line or fourth line. It doesn't have to be in a game. You can show your skating skills, shooting skills, stick handling skills, etc in practice. That goes for every player but some people are so wrapped up in saying Laf has never had an opportunity to show his skills they just do not get it.

 

[will1066]

An elite prospect playing in his first career NHL game in a bottom 6 position isn't going to be judged in production. He's getting examined for keeping up with NHL pace, showing good instincts and a nose for the puck, taking some initiative and not being intimidated, etc. After that he gets to play in the top 6 if he shows something to the coaching staff

 

[Peltz]

On top of that, New York’s first unit power play is so lethal that Lafrenière has barely sniffed the man advantage. So yes, Lafrenière hasn’t accomplished enough yet, but it’s virtually impossible to rack up big point totals when you’re playing on the third line, with barely any power-play time. When you account for that context, you realize that he’s shown some promise, even if it’s not at the level you’d hope from a No. 1 pick. Since entering the league as a rookie, Lafrenière is tied with Panarin, Alex Killorn, Bo Horvat and Phillip Danault in terms of five-on-five goals, and he’s scored more than Andrei Svechnikov, Tyler Toffoli, Mika Zibanejad and Rickard Rakell.

Draft bust or breakout candidate? 10 hotshot U23 NHL players that need to step up

Will these promising young players finally put it together and reach their NHL potential this season?

theathletic.com

Over the last two seasons, Lafreniere actually produced quite well for someone who wasn’t given much time in the top six. Dating back to the start of the 2021-22 season, he's recorded 0.87 5-on-5 goals per 60 minutes, ranking him in the 83rd percentile of all skaters that played at least 500 minutes in that span, according to NaturalStatTrick.com.

5 NHL players poised for breakout seasons in 2023-24

Will this be the year Alexis Lafreniere finally reaches his potential? Can Rasmus Sandin build on last season's strong finish?

ca.sports.yahoo.com

What about assists? My biggest issue with him isn't that he can't finish (i.e. score goals). It's that he makes dumb decisions with the puck in all scenarios outside of scoring position. And without the puck, he's even worse.

One thing I do think is underrated about Laf is that he has an insane release - both backhand and forehand. (seriously, he can roof a backhand better than most NHL players)

But he's never open because he has no idea where to go. And he also turns the puck over way too often when entering the offensive zone.

 

[RangersFan1994]

But Kreider has always done things that Laf does not.

His speed has been terrifying at times. It keeps the defense back. It makes the opposing team play defensive even with the puck.

Laf does not bring that (or anything else) to the table.


Can we stop... please?

Kreider also scores goals and produces in the playoffs when it counts. Laf has not done that and most likely never will.

 

[NickyFotiu]

What about assists? My biggest issue with him isn't that he can't finish (i.e. score goals). It's that he makes dumb decisions with the puck in all scenarios outside of scoring position. And without the puck, he's even worse.

One thing I do think is underrated about Laf is that he has an insane release - both backhand and forehand. (seriously, he can roof a backhand better than most NHL players)

But he's never open because he has no idea where to go. And he also turns the puck over way too often when entering the offensive zone.

That has been Lafs best skill I have seen so far. He does have a better than average backhand in close. I do wonder if Laf's stick curve/lie may have an effect on Lafs puck handling.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

The back and forth with Laf on the wings needs to stop!

 

[mas0764]

Kreider always had that dangerous burst of speed.

I'm not even sure what you are trying to say... Kreider came into the playoffs and lit the world on fire with his physical play and his 5 playoffs goals as rookie with no regular season games played.

I'm trying to say that even though not a 1-for-1 comparison, at age 21 Kreider scored 3 points in 23 NHL games and Lafreniere scored 39.

Lafreniere is better as a complete NHLer than Kreider was at 21.

It's not over for Lafreniere. He's a disappointment but he can still quite easily carve out a top 6 NHL career. Maybe everyone was wrong on him and he is a guy who didn't belong in the NHL so young.

Laffy is with Panarin and Chytil now in practice. Just use this and stick with it. They will leak goals but Laffy needs to learn to pick up his man at some point during the season. Panarin too. Hopefully they'll score lots. Fil has looked strong even in a red jersey.

Agreed.

Kreider was also mishandled when he was young.

Kreider looked ready to take on a 2nd line role full time during the 11-12 playoffs.

Of course, that meant under Coach Dick (Tortorella) he could barely stay in the lineup at all the next season.
Same for Mats Zuccarello during 2012-13.

Which meant for both of them 2013-14 was their first full season, and they contributed at decent levels for players playing their first full season in the league but didn't contribute the way I felt they would've with more experience in the playoffs. And our biggest need in the playoffs in 2014? More scoring.

Based on his 2011-12 playoffs, Kreider should've been scoring 30 goals a year for the past decade. It took the team almost 10 years for him to develop into a very good player.

It's a bit revisionist to compare Laf to Kreider as if Kreider is some smashing success of Rangers' player development. He's a good player, and he's a borderline All-Star now, but you can't say that if you were watching his 2011-12 playoffs, that 2012-2021 wasn't a disappointment.

It would be nice if the team could develop a forward in a reasonable amount of time. Kreider's lack of production in 2012-13, is not a knock on Kreider so much as an indictment of the org handling him the same way as they handled most scoring prospects.

My biggest issue with Laf is that I don't see him being committed to getting bigger, stronger, faster, more skilled. THIS was his make or break offseason, and THIS is his make or break year. I see a guy who trains an average amount for an NHL player. Which means he's going to be an average NHL player. So unless someone gets through to him and lights a fire in his belly to be the best player on this team and one of the best in the league, I see an average player who is content to contribute somewhat more than average, based on his skill, to an NHL roster. And from a 1OA, that's incredibly disappointing.

Oh I'm not saying Kreider was a smashing success of development.

I'm just saying for all the people saying "there's no hope," and to cut bait, that just isn't true. You can still quite easily get a good and valuable long term player out of Laf, even if he's never the star we really need.

And I'm not dumping him for Connor Garland.

I'd probably do Laf in a package for Pettersson at this stage, sure. Laf/Chytil/1st for Pettersson and change? I'd consider.