Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[LokiDog]

You are not really making a strong case by implying Laf can only produce if he plays with Zib.
I do think Laf should be playing RW. It suits his skills much better. I also think he will be better as he matures physically.

Beyond that, his “pretty good” while playing with Zib is still pretty pedestrian for a D+2 1OA. He absolutely had some good games there and looked a lot better, but that’s better relative to his norm. It’s not like he suddenly looked like a legitimate top young player. He just showed a bit more. Statistically, I am almost positive they’re among the absolute worst performing 1/2 picks of the last 25 years, after 2/3 years.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Beyond that, his “pretty good” while playing with Zib is still pretty pedestrian for a D+2 1OA. He absolutely had some good games there and looked a lot better, but that’s better relative to his norm. It’s not like he suddenly looked like a legitimate top young player. He just showed a bit more. Statistically, I am almost positive they’re among the absolute worst performing 1/2 picks of the last 25 years, after 2/3 years.

I think you need to go a lot further back than 25 years. Like, a LOT further back. Maybe to the inception of the draft. I swear I remember seeing something about Laf being the worst statistically in over 50 years.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Beyond that, his “pretty good” while playing with Zib is still pretty pedestrian for a D+2 1OA. He absolutely had some good games there and looked a lot better, but that’s better relative to his norm. It’s not like he suddenly looked like a legitimate top young player. He just showed a bit more. Statistically, I am almost positive they’re among the absolute worst performing 1/2 picks of the last 25 years, after 2/3 years.

I have the same advice for the people that yell he should be on the 1st line as the people who think he is a bust. Give it time. It is too soon. He is not physically nor mentally at his peak. He should take a step next season. Now if he is not around 40-50 points next season then some concern is warranted. I do think he has looked better but he is shut down physically on those left boards. Teach him to use the middle of the ice by playing RW.

 

[LokiDog]

I think you need to go a lot further back than 25 years. Like, a LOT further back. Maybe to the inception of the draft. I swear I remember seeing something about Laf being the worst statistically in over 50 years.

Well, while an anomaly, Joe Thornton had only 29 points in his first 136 games. Laf is at 46 in 127 or something like that so that statement, at least, is incorrect. But I think Thornton is the only forward in the past 25 years to fare worse at the #1 or 2 position and I’m holding my breath regarding either of them having a Thornton-esque career.

 

[NickyFotiu]

It's more the fact that the other option sucks and we keep trying it. It's been two games and I'm absolutely done with that third line already.

Good players find a way no matter what line. The line matters but its not the be all end all. We saw that when our 3rd line was our best line at times in previous seasons. I keep saying it but Laf is being physically shut down on those left boards. They need to teach him to play the off wing. He will be on his forehand towards the middle of the ice 70% more of the time. That will help a lot once he realizes the benefits of that. Zooks understood. Panerin understands. I think Laf will find a way to step up next season if not in the playoffs. He may be tall but he does not have that grown man strength yet. It will come. So will the confidence. Until then we just have to be patient.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Well, while an anomaly, Joe Thornton had only 29 points in his first 136 games. Laf is at 46 in 127 or something like that so that statement, at least, is incorrect. But I think Thornton is the only forward in the past 25 years to fare worse at the #1 or 2 position and I’m holding my breath regarding either of them having a Thornton-esque career.

I would not look at other number 1's. It does not help. I would look at other top 5 picks that took 2-3 years to find their games but then became very good.

 

[LokiDog]

I would not look at other number 1's. It does not help. I would look at other top 5 picks that took 2-3 years to find their games but then became very good.

Even doing that and going back to 2010, anyone in the top 5 picks who didn’t find their game fairly early either was a complete bust or was named Ryan Strome, Nino Neiderreiter or Sam Bennett for later bloomers. Obviously outside of the top 5 there’s more. But if Strome/Bennett is long term best case scenario that’s a disappointing top pick. And none of those guys hit their stride with the team that drafted them.

 

[Machinehead]

Good players find a way no matter what line. The line matters but its not the be all end all. We saw that when our 3rd line was our best line at times in previous seasons. I keep saying it but Laf is being physically shut down on those left boards. They need to teach him to play the off wing. He will be on his forehand towards the middle of the ice 70% more of the time. That will help a lot once he realizes the benefits of that. Zooks understood. Panerin understands. I think Laf will find a way to step up next season if not in the playoffs. He may be tall but he does not have that grown man strength yet. It will come. So will the confidence. Until then we just have to be patient.

"Good players find a way no matter the line" is fortune cookie wisdom. A Disney movie.

Panarin and Strome had a *very good* 4th liner on their RW much of the year and that line was almost sub-NHL at even strength.

The "way" Panarin found is called the powerplay.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Even doing that and going back to 2010, anyone in the top 5 picks who didn’t find their game fairly early either was a complete bust or was named Ryan Strome, Nino Neiderreiter or Sam Bennett for later bloomers. Obviously outside of the top 5 there’s more. But if Strome/Bennett is long term best case scenario that’s a disappointing top pick. And none of those guys hit their stride with the team that drafted them.

I could see some similarities with Kessel and Huberdeau first 2 years. Not exact but each situation is individual. I do understand your concern but I think you should wait until mid next season before jumping the gone on a conclusion.

 

[NickyFotiu]

"Good players find a way no matter the line" is fortune cookie wisdom. A Disney movie.

Panarin and Strome had a *very good* 4th liner on their RW much of the year and that line was almost sub-NHL at even strength.

The "way" Panarin found is called the powerplay.

Crosby has produced double shifting on the 4th line. So did Gretz. Zooks would never have been Zooks if he just gave up because he was on the 3rd and 4th line. It is not unheard of for young guys to spend time on the 3rd line while finding their game. Adam Graves didnt start his career as a 1st line player., Neither did Ron Duguay. Most do not. If I believed Laf can only play on the first line then I would have no hope. I do not believe that. If you believe that then you actually have a lower opinion of his game then most.

 

[LokiDog]

I could see some similarities with Kessel and Huberdeau first 2 years. Not exact but each situation is individual. I do understand your concern but I think you should wait until mid next season before jumping the gone on a conclusion.

I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion. I think that there is an extra layer of concern when you have back to back top picks both performing at a level where you have to comb the past 3 decades for comparables within the top 5 of the draft. If it were one kid it would be a lot easier to preach patience. When it’s two it’s concerning. When you add Chytil and Lias it’s alarming. That’s 4 players over 5 years drafted 1, 2, 7, 21 and the career high for any of them is 25 points so far. I know they’ve all played some shortened seasons, but even when you turn it into points per game, not one of them has really done well.

Excluding Lias, who is the worst and no longer a Ranger, Fil, KK and Laf have combined for 190 points in 526 games. Combined they each average a 29 point per 82 game pace.

Taking Laf and saying well I see similarities to early Huberdeau or Kessel’s numbers is fine. But trying to say “well look at Huberdeau” for Laf, KK and Fil begs the obvious… how many Huberdeaus do you realistically think we can have. If any one of them becomes 70% of the player Huberdeau is, that’s a massive win and still means pretty big Ls for the other two.

 

[Machinehead]

Crosby has produced double shifting on the 4th line. So did Gretz. Zooks would never have been Zooks if he just gave up because he was on the 3rd and 4th line. It is not unheard of for young guys to spend time on the 3rd line while finding their game. Adam Graves didnt start his career as a 1st line player., Neither did Ron Duguay. Most do not. If I believed Laf can only play on the first line then I would have no hope. I do not believe that. If you believe that then you actually have a lower opinion of his game then most.

Again, "only play on the first line" is something you said, not me.

I don't think anybody is going to be good on a terrible line. Other than Kreider-Zib-Laf, he's been on lines that produce like 4th lines all year. Lafreniere-Chytil-Gauthier scored at a 4th line rate over large samples.

And that's not to say he isn't part of the bad makeup of those lines, but why do we keep putting those lines together and then sticking with them.

I'm looking for him to be used in the middle six. Is that so outlandish? It's either the first line or a collection of our u22 squad. Isn't there a middle ground?

 

[bl02]

I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion. I think that there is an extra layer of concern when you have back to back top picks both performing at a level where you have to comb the past 3 decades for comparables within the top 5 of the draft. If it were one kid it would be a lot easier to preach patience. When it’s two it’s concerning. When you add Chytil and Lias it’s alarming. That’s 4 players over 5 years drafted 1, 2, 7, 21 and the career high for any of them is 25 points so far.

Yep! K'Andre is pretty much outscoring them. At this point I would settle on just one of the young forwards breaking out.

 

[Machinehead]

Yep! K'Andre is pretty much outscoring them. At this point I would settle on just one of the young forwards breaking out.

K'Andre got plugged into our top 4 immediately for basically no reason and never moved no matter how he performed. Might be something to that.

 

[bl02]

K'Andre got plugged into our top 4 immediately for basically no reason and never moved no matter how he performed. Might be something to that.

And he should have been. K'Andre was and still is probably our most talented LHD.

 

[Machinehead]

And he should have been. K'Andre was and still is probably our most talented LHD.

Fair enough but do see the difference in commitment?

The Rangers don't commit to forwards like that.

And this isn't about "lets get Lafreniere more points on the best line so we can feel better and then bitch that he can only play there!" Although, Lafreniere scoring is good and him being on our top line is good, weird that I have to say that. I digress.

It's about the larger issues. Those who can't/won't see the large issues...I don't know what to tell them anymore. @Loki Dog 74 touched on. We've drafted forward after forward (pretty high!) in the first round and we're tuning them all into 4th liners. It's happened about three too many times to be the players. The Rangers have something wrong.

And you know what? "Lafreniere shouldn't have to be on that line to succeed" is such a deflection that Chris Kreider blushes at it. He was on that line and he was succeeding. This is a results business. He was punished in the middle of a point-per-game run because the Rangers decided they didn't like some things-n-stuff they saw.

There was lots of things-n-stuff to not like about Miller (still is!) but they treated him like human instead of a cyborg and he worked through it.

People aren't arguing "Lafreniere is good, he just needs to be put on the top line to break Greztky's records." We're arguing that yeah, he's kind of underwhelming, and he needs to work to get better with a little trust from his team. And maybe a little encouragement. What message does "f*** your 7 points in 6 games" send?

 

[Chaels Arms]

People aren't arguing "Lafreniere is good, he just needs to be put on the top line to break Greztky's records." We're arguing that yeah, he's kind of underwhelming, and he needs to work to get better with a little trust from his team. And maybe a little encouragement. What message does "f*** your 7 points in 6 games" send?

It sends the message that his performance and his place in the lineup/ice time are not connected in any manner.

I've said it before but Laf could score a hat trick the next three games playing 10 minutes on the third or fourth line... and the result would be more games with him playing 10 minutes on the third or fourth line.

He could do absolutely nothing the rest of the season, be a complete skating corpse on the ice playing 10 minutes on the third or fourth line... and the result would be more games with him playing 10 minutes on the third or fourth line.

In any industry, not even just talking about sports here, fostering an environment void of incentives and/or disincentives for young talent is one of the worst possible things an organization can do and yet that's exactly what we seem to be doing right now with at least one of our most important draft picks in decades.

 

[Machinehead]

It sends the message that his performance and his place in the lineup/ice time are not connected in any manner.

I've said it before but Laf could score a hat trick the next three games playing 10 minutes on the third or fourth line... and the result would be more games with him playing 10 minutes on the third or fourth line.

He could do absolutely nothing the rest of the season, be a complete skating corpse on the ice playing 10 minutes on the third or fourth line... and the result would be more games with him playing 10 minutes on the third or fourth line.

In any industry, not even just talking about sports here, fostering an environment void of incentives and/or disincentives for young talent is one of the worst possible things an organization can do and yet that's exactly what we seem to be doing right now with at least one of our most important draft picks in decades.

That's my thing with the "he hasn't earned it" crowd.

Maybe he hasn't. Do you really think it would be different if he had?

We saw it happen. He was on career-best run and took a demotion because it was about things-n-stuff, not results.

The Rangers are always like that with forwards.

 

[bl02]

Fair enough but do see the difference in commitment?

The Rangers don't commit to forwards like that.

And this isn't about "lets get Lafreniere more points on the best line so we can feel better and then bitch that he can only play there!" Although, Lafreniere scoring is good and him being on our top line is good, weird that I have to say that. I digress.

It's about the larger issues. Those who can't/won't see the large issues...I don't know what to tell them anymore. @Loki Dog 74 touched on. We've drafted forward after forward (pretty high!) in the first round and we're tuning them all into 4th liners. It's happened about three too many times to be the players. The Rangers have something wrong.

And you know what? "Lafreniere shouldn't have to be on that line to succeed" is such a deflection that Chris Kreider blushes at it. He was on that line and he was succeeding. This is a results business. He was punished in the middle of a point-per-game run because the Rangers decided they didn't like some things-n-stuff they saw.

There was lots of things-n-stuff to not like about Miller (still is!) but they treated him like human instead of a cyborg and he worked through it.

People aren't arguing "Lafreniere is good, he just needs to be put on the top line to break Greztky's records." We're arguing that yeah, he's kind of underwhelming, and he needs to work to get better with a little trust from his team. And maybe a little encouragement. What message does "f*** your 7 points in 6 games" send?

They don't and it was obvious last season as well.
I've been one of those wanting Laf to play in the top 6 and get pp1 time with Quinn and With GG.

At this point all I am saying is that Laf is gonna have to make it work on that third line. I just don't see with the way Vatrano is playing with Mika and CK that he is gonna change things up. And of course whether its the coach or Panarin or whoever Strome seems to have to be glued to Panarin.

Having said that (and I wouldn't have a problem seeing Laf back in the top 6) Vatrano looks better with Mika and CK than Laf did (Much more explosive and decisive). With 8 games left I don't think GG is gonna take him off that line to see if he can get the third line working.

Also GG has said it multiple times that Laf prefers the left side especially in the d zone and maybe that was a deciding factor as well? Just trying to play devils advocate because none of us really know behind the scenes what the coach/player convo's are like. The coach right now wants to win games. i don't really think he cares too much about whats best for Laf.

 

[Machinehead]

They don't and it was obvious last season as well.
I've been one of those wanting Laf to play in the top 6 and get pp1 time but knew that with Quinn or With GG.

At this point all I am saying is that Laf is gonna have to make it work on that third line. I just don't see with the way Vatrano is playing with Mika and CK that he is gonna change things up. And of course whether its the coach or Panarin or whoever Strome seems to have to be glued to Panarin.

Having said that (and I wouldn't have a problem seeing Laf back in the top 6) Vatrano looks better with Mika and CK than Laf did (Much more explosive and decisive). With 8 games left I don't think GG is gonna take him off that line to see if he can get the third line working.

Also GG has said it multiple times that Laf prefers the left side especially in the d zone and maybe that was a deciding factor as well? Just trying to play devils advocate because none of us really know behind the scenes what the coach/player convo's are like. The coach right now wants to win games. i don't really think he cares too much about whats best for Laf.

I'm fine with that right now going into a playoff run, but going into next season, the Rangers have to make some decisions and stick with them.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Fair enough but do see the difference in commitment?

The Rangers don't commit to forwards like that.

And this isn't about "lets get Lafreniere more points on the best line so we can feel better and then bitch that he can only play there!" Although, Lafreniere scoring is good and him being on our top line is good, weird that I have to say that. I digress.

It's about the larger issues. Those who can't/won't see the large issues...I don't know what to tell them anymore. @Loki Dog 74 touched on. We've drafted forward after forward (pretty high!) in the first round and we're tuning them all into 4th liners. It's happened about three too many times to be the players. The Rangers have something wrong.

And you know what? "Lafreniere shouldn't have to be on that line to succeed" is such a deflection that Chris Kreider blushes at it. He was on that line and he was succeeding. This is a results business. He was punished in the middle of a point-per-game run because the Rangers decided they didn't like some things-n-stuff they saw.

There was lots of things-n-stuff to not like about Miller (still is!) but they treated him like human instead of a cyborg and he worked through it.

People aren't arguing "Lafreniere is good, he just needs to be put on the top line to break Greztky's records." We're arguing that yeah, he's kind of underwhelming, and he needs to work to get better with a little trust from his team. And maybe a little encouragement. What message does "f*** your 7 points in 6 games" send?

3 of those high picks (Lafreniere, Kakko & Andersson) biggest knock against them is their skating. I think that’s the main reason they’ve all sucked. Chytil was a much later pick than those 3, and he has outplayed & outproduced many players picked before him. He likely goes higher than he was selected in a redraft. And Chytil is the great skater. Then Kravtsov is a great skater as well and looked much better than Laf or Kakko in the NHL, and has outproduced Kaprizov & Kuznetsov in the playoffs at the same age, just 0.05PPG shy of a certain guy by the name of Artemi Panarin.

Don’t you think their skating is a problem? All these other young kids around the league that are lighting it up or showing flashes have that speed. Laf & Kakko skate in quicksand, so did Andersson.

 

[Machinehead]

3 of those high picks (Lafreniere, Kakko & Andersson) biggest knock against them is their skating. I think that’s the main reason they’ve all sucked. Chytil was a much later pick than those 3, and he has outplayed & outproduced many players picked before him. He likely goes higher than he was selected in a redraft. And Chytil is the great skater. Then Kravtsov is a great skater as well and looked much better than Laf or Kakko in the NHL, and has outproduced Kaprizov & Kuznetsov in the playoffs at the same age, just 0.05PPG shy of a certain guy by the name of Artemi Panarin.

Don’t you think their skating is a problem? All these other young kids around the league that are lighting it up or showing flashes have that speed. Laf & Kakko skate in quicksand, so did Andersson.

I'm sick of hearing about the skating. Derek Stepan honest to God cannot f***ing skate. Literally. Does not ice skate. He's their most successful forward draft pick outside of Kreider.

You said yourself Chytil and Kravtsov are great skaters and they got the exact same results. Apply whatever mental gymnastics you want about Chytil being picked later - he's in his D+5 and he's as exciting as watching flies f***. Tell yourself what you want about Kravtsov -the 70 point seasons you had fantasies about are none of my business- he had 4 points in 20 games. And that whole thing is a f***ing mess.

How many players are we going to watch pile up in this grave before we stop making excuses for the team and telling ourselves that prospects universally loved by scouts were just never that good?

 

[Machinehead]

By the way, here's something I've noticed about Chris Kreider, the crown jewel of forward development *checks notes* in franchise history.

His first full season, he was playing 15:44 per game. He never went below that.

Lafreniere would sell his loved ones to play 15:44.

 

[Kords]

I've been pretty patient, but at this point in the season to see him still going large stretches without making any noticeable offensive contributions is a big bummer. It was his first full pro season so i'm gonna punt my concern to next october. If he hasn't made any real strides there is a massive issue that needs to be addressed.

Probably nothing and I don't wanna start any narratives, but a few months ago there was a girl on twitter posting selfies with Laffy at a bar pretty late after a game when there was a back to back the next day and I remember finding that odd. He didn't end up having a bad game and he is a kid so i'm not holding it against him at all, but I REALLY hope he isn't enjoying all the perks of NYC too much. Although that would probably be a better reason for his play than just lacking that next gear.

 

[ajdj10]

Can anyone actually tell me what he's good at?
Because the only thing I can see so far is he doesn't miss empty/open nets.