Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[NickyFotiu]

every player you mentioned came in here when torts was here (or during the season renney was fired and torts took over). he molded them and demanded a certain level that made some players hate him. the only exception is chytil. you kind of helped my point without realizing it...

I understand your point. I would say that Torts barely played Zooks (sent him away twice) and CK so I would not give him credit for their hard work. Cally was a hustle guy from day 1 as well. Some guys are always that way. Some guys it has to click in. My hope is that is that Laf and KK soon go down as very hard workers as well. Lavi is not a shrinking violet so I expect them to be pushed.

 

[bleedblue94]

Laviolette isn't an entitlement coach, he's a meritocracy coach. The players just might hate him too. He's got no problem benching whoever whenever if he's not happy with them.

I understand that, you are missing my point regarding the atmosphere for WHEN these kids came in and the affect on someone like laffy who has looked like he expected this all from day one instead of earning it. talking about 3 years later in the same many is a different thing...

Could you imagine what the narrative would be if Torts was here? He can’t develop players. He doesn’t allow them to be creative. They know they’ll get benched if they mess up etc…

Torts is being blamed for things even though he has been gone for almost a decade. I still maintain he should have been the hire instead of turk (said that at the time)...

 

[DanielBrassard]

But isn't Lafreniere's EV production similar to Kreider and Zibanejad's?

No, even if you just look at points/60 Lafreniere has been below both of them. And that includes Lafreniere shooting a ridiculously unsustainable percentage his first two years.

I dont get where the idea that Lafreniere is a highly efficient scorer at 5v5 is coming from. The last two years he has scored 1.66 and 1.61 P/60 which place him in borderline 2nd line or 3rd line level. Zibanejad has been over 2 and Kreider had a down 2021 but the last two years has been at 1.79 and 1.75. This doesn’t even include play driving which is where Kreider shines.

 

[bhamill]

That’s all well and good, but what does all this have to do with Alexis Lafreniere? He obviously worked hard from a young age to make the NHL and be a 1OA pick. Whether he’s still putting the proper work in now, idk.

On a side note, inflation has been out of control, but we are talking about wealthy young men who mostly worked very hard to get where they are. Some moved across the globe to get where they are.

I think we are going off the rails a bit here.

That’s fair: totally off the rails. Just shooting the shit in public with Nicky.

 

[Number 9]

I think for Laf to really break out is he needs to find footing on the right wing. Although, I don't think he has the hockey IQ to do so. At least from what I saw in the past he doesn't seem adaptable.

 

[Quinnisinoverhishead]

No, even if you just look at points/60 Lafreniere has been below both of them. And that includes Lafreniere shooting a ridiculously unsustainable percentage his first two years.

I dont get where the idea that Lafreniere is a highly efficient scorer at 5v5 is coming from. The last two years he has scored 1.66 and 1.61 P/60 which place him in borderline 2nd line or 3rd line level. Zibanejad has been over 2 and Kreider had a down 2021 but the last two years has been at 1.79 and 1.75. This doesn’t even include play driving which is where Kreider shines.

Since Lafreniere entered the league he is tied with Kreider in points/60. We are comparing a teenager to prime years of Kreider. Keep in mind Kreider has played consistently with Zibanejad and Lafreniere has been juggled around. Kreider does not drive plays.. he is one of the worst stick handlers I've ever seen.

 

[mas0764]

No, even if you just look at points/60 Lafreniere has been below both of them. And that includes Lafreniere shooting a ridiculously unsustainable percentage his first two years.

I dont get where the idea that Lafreniere is a highly efficient scorer at 5v5 is coming from. The last two years he has scored 1.66 and 1.61 P/60 which place him in borderline 2nd line or 3rd line level. Zibanejad has been over 2 and Kreider had a down 2021 but the last two years has been at 1.79 and 1.75. This doesn’t even include play driving which is where Kreider shines.

Eh, I think this is fudging the interpretation of the numbers a bit the other way.

First off, I didn't say he was a "highly efficient scorer at 5v5." I said that (well, asked if) his numbers were similar to Kreider's and Zibanejad's at EV.

Since EV technically includes non-real hockey 3v3 situations, I guess, we can sort by 5v5 on moneypuck and look there.

First off, it is true that Lafreniere has scored more 5v5 goals than Zibanejad has in the past 3 years (41 to 38). Maybe that is in part unsustainable shooting percentrage, a down year by Zibanejad, or something else. I think it should be clear that citing that number isn't an argument on my part that Lafreniere is a better scorer than Zibanejad and needs to cannibalize his PP time. I'm not saying that.

What I am saying is that given the relatively embarassing spots on that list occupied by our other top 9 forwards (there are exactly 2 Rangers from last year in the top 100 at 5v5 goals/60, and it's Kreider and Chytil) that maybe Lafreniere isn't quite as far off as is being often insinuated.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Eh, I think this is fudging the interpretation of the numbers a bit the other way.

First off, I didn't say he was a "highly efficient scorer at 5v5." I said that (well, asked if) his numbers were similar to Kreider's and Zibanejad's at EV.

Since EV technically includes non-real hockey 3v3 situations, I guess, we can sort by 5v5 on moneypuck and look there.

First off, it is true that Lafreniere has scored more 5v5 goals than Zibanejad has in the past 3 years (41 to 38). Maybe that is in part unsustainable shooting percentrage, a down year by Zibanejad, or something else. I think it should be clear that citing that number isn't an argument on my part that Lafreniere is a better scorer than Zibanejad and needs to cannibalize his PP time. I'm not saying that.

What I am saying is that given the relatively embarassing spots on that list occupied by our other top 9 forwards (there are exactly 2 Rangers from last year in the top 100 at 5v5 goals/60, and it's Kreider and Chytil) that maybe Lafreniere isn't quite as far off as is being often insinuated.

And I feel like a lot of people miss that.
He’s actually not done poorly, but his counting stats are really not the best representation of where he’s at.

 

[haohmaru]

I understand that, you are missing my point regarding the atmosphere for WHEN these kids came in and the affect on someone like laffy who has looked like he expected this all from day one instead of earning it. talking about 3 years later in the same many is a different thing...

Okay, but who cares about that now? It's done.

How do we FIX this instead of MOVING ON from it? That's what the Rangers need to focus on.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Okay, but who cares about that now? It's done.

How do we FIX this instead of MOVING ON from it? That's what the Rangers need to focus on.

Some of us have said it.
It’s sink or swim with the kids right now.
The ideal is
Laf-Mika- kk
Panarin - Chytil - ?
Ck - trocheck- wheeler

 

[will1066]

The key is to get him drinking skim milk instead of whole milk to get his body fat pct down. He has to adjust to the taste

 

[UnSandvich]

Some of us have said it.
It’s sink or swim with the kids right now.
The ideal is
Laf-Mika- kk
Panarin - Chytil - ?
Ck - trocheck- wheeler

Honestly, Vesey might fit on that 2nd line in the Fast sort of role. If we're not doing a checking line of Kreider-Trocheck-Vesey of course

 

[Crease]

The key is to get him drinking skim milk instead of whole milk to get his body fat pct down. He has to adjust to the taste

Serious athletes drink only vodka soda at the club.

 

[ReddestRum]

Some of us have said it.
It’s sink or swim with the kids right now.
The ideal is
Laf-Mika- kk
Panarin - Chytil - ?
Ck - trocheck- wheeler

Lol. I'm not sure you guys know what seniority is, but it's a thing in the NHL, whether you like it or not. I guarantee you to start the season the kids will be together on the third line again. CK and Tro at 15 million together will NOT be third liners, no matter how much people wish it. Laf is 100% not getting first line minutes, but KK might shift up there. Might. Bread being on the second line is a stretch at best, but teams don't pay 11.6 million for a player not to be on the first line.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Lol. I'm not sure you guys know what seniority is, but it's a thing in the NHL, whether you like it or not. I guarantee you to start the season the kids will be together on the third line again. CK and Tro at 15 million together will NOT be third liners, no matter how much people wish it. Laf is 100% not getting first line minutes, but KK might shift up there. Might. Bread being on the second line is a stretch at best, but teams don't pay 11.6 million for a player not to be on the first line.

We have benched, cut, sent to minors and played high paid players on the 4th line for decades. We are going to play the players that play best. The salaries are sunk costs. They get paid regardless of how much they play. Fox made less than Trouba but played nore.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Lol. I'm not sure you guys know what seniority is, but it's a thing in the NHL, whether you like it or not. I guarantee you to start the season the kids will be together on the third line again. CK and Tro at 15 million together will NOT be third liners, no matter how much people wish it. Laf is 100% not getting first line minutes, but KK might shift up there. Might. Bread being on the second line is a stretch at best, but teams don't pay 11.6 million for a player not to be on the first line.

If we want to win a cup. Laf needs to break out. Kakko needs to break out.
Kreider and panarin are who they are. Yeah maybe we can get 2019 panarin, and 2021 kreider, but their 2022 seasons and Laf breaking out and kakko breaking out launches us into contender status.

 

[mas0764]

Yeah, Kakko and Laf becoming 70-80 point players this season fixes a ton.

That probably vaults us to favorite status (along with 2-3-4 other teams).

But it's a classic count your chickens before they hatch thing. Don't count on it till it happens.

Coincidentally, it probably would only happen if it goes hand in hand with our overall team 5v5 game improving, which means everyone is better too, because of coaching or system.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Yeah, Kakko and Laf becoming 70-80 point players this season fixes a ton.

That probably vaults us to favorite status (along with 2-3-4 other teams).

But it's a classic count your chickens before they hatch thing. Don't count on it till it happens.

Coincidentally, it probably would only happen if it goes hand in hand with our overall team 5v5 game improving, which means everyone is better too, because of coaching or system.

Yup.
I'll say I'm hopefully optimistic on both laf and kakko this year. What laviolette said at his press conference it felt very much like he was asked point blank if he could make them into all-stars and that would be his way to win a cup. And he has gone deep into the playoffs with kids having a big role.

 

[Synergy27]

If we want to win a cup. Laf needs to break out. Kakko needs to break out.
Kreider and panarin are who they are. Yeah maybe we can get 2019 panarin, and 2021 kreider, but their 2022 seasons and Laf breaking out and kakko breaking out launches us into contender status.

Even just one of them really breaking out, and Panarin not being a bitch, would do it. I am more confident in the former than the latter though, which is bad because I’m not very confident about the former.

 

[ReddestRum]

We have benched, cut, sent to minors and played high paid players on the 4th line for decades. We are going to play the players that play best. The salaries are sunk costs. They get paid regardless of how much they play. Fox made less than Trouba but played nore.

If we want to win a cup. Laf needs to break out. Kakko needs to break out.
Kreider and panarin are who they are. Yeah maybe we can get 2019 panarin, and 2021 kreider, but their 2022 seasons and Laf breaking out and kakko breaking out launches us into contender status.

You both can bookmark me 5-10 games into the season, but unless the kids are putting up decent points, you're not f***ing getting Laf and KK on Line 1 together. Lol. Not even to start, guaranteed.

 

[NickyFotiu]

You both can bookmark me 5-10 games into the season, but unless the kids are putting up decent points, you're not f***ing getting Laf and KK on Line 1 together. Lol. Not even to start, guaranteed.

You have no way of knowing who will be playing where. Lavi doesn't know at this point in time but I will agree if Laf and KK are not producing 10 games in they shouldn't be together on our first line. That goes for any 2 player combination. Why would we want to play any combo that are not producing decent pounts after 10 games on our first line? Hopefully one or both play great but anyone that doesn't play well should not be given the most minutes. I hope like crazy both step up. If they do then the minutes will follow.

 

[bleedblue94]

Okay, but who cares about that now? It's done.

How do we FIX this instead of MOVING ON from it? That's what the Rangers need to focus on.

It's been this way though for the better part of decades except when a general like torts was here. You ask how you fix it, you don't keep hiring soft ass player coaches that are hands off. Hopefully lavy is a step in the right direction but it's a hell of a lot harder developing a committed and hard working environment than it is allowing one to deteriorate (thanks AV)...

 

[2014nyr]

Since Lafreniere entered the league he is tied with Kreider in points/60. We are comparing a teenager to prime years of Kreider. Keep in mind Kreider has played consistently with Zibanejad and Lafreniere has been juggled around. Kreider does not drive plays.. he is one of the worst stick handlers I've ever seen.

i'm assuming that's analytics talk on kreider as a play driver ie his chances for/against are on the higher end of the team. analytics are useful, but in kreider's case i'm with you he is not at all a "play driver" regardless of the analytics. the term isn't great for that stat anyway, since most people associate play drivers as guys who have the puck on their stick all over the ice and create a majority of the chances for themselves / their line with puckhandling and puck movement on the attack. the stat is more black and white about chances that occur when on the ice where he does add value getting pucks deep and retrieving them but he's always playing with top offensive players. in most areas of the ice, he's horrendous with the puck on his stick though. he has some great qualities and i have nothing against him, but if this team is a legit contender it means laf is the top line lw.

laf does need to come in looking the part and in by far the best shape he's ever been in, because it wouldn't have mattered last year where he played or how much time he got 5 on 5 or pp. hopefully laviolette figures out how to get controlled breakouts where guys are moving the puck to players on the move and able to attack teams with actual speed. if laf is going to be getting pucks near the wall with his feet flat you might as well have kreider there. at least he has some burst from a stop to gain the red line and get it deep, laf will have plays die on his stick or be a turnover machine if that's the strategy. plus, at some point it'll just get him killed.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Laviolette needs to put Laf and Kakko in positions to succeed. Part of me wonders if that was the rift between Gallant and Drury, culminating in what transpired in the playoffs. The kid line was one of the better lines (not by much) and maybe Drury wanted to give them the most ice time to not only help their development and the team, but also light a fire under the other underperforming stars.

Regardless - I've seen Laf and Kakko penciled into the top line with Mika pretty much everywhere going into this season. Coincidentally, we saw the same thing last summer.

I'm not sure having 3 coaches/systems in a 4 year span is helpful to anyones development, but the bottom line is they need to take the opportunity and run with it. Laf in particular needs to put his nose to the grindstone this summer and come into camp with something to prove. Dont say anything, stop joking around and get serious. He's going to be given the chance to prove himself and this is the year to show the world why he was the 1OA.

They will be given the opportunity, but hopefully some extra rope early on as well. Dont be quick to yank them off that line. However it comes down to production for both of them. Plain and simple. Turn the corner.

 

[LaffyTaffyNYR]

Like I was saying…