Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[duhmetreE]

Hey Folks,

I know it’s summer but can we try and get back on topic about Laf and not about different generations, appreciate it.

Thanks

Leo

lets get back to 24%

 

[bleedblue94]

If this board claims Laf, Chytil, and KK are all top 6 players than they already are playing with top 6 players. We cant say they are top 6 caliper players but then use linemates as a rationalization for a lack of production.

I brought this up a couple days ago as well, the whole thing becomes a paradox.

I'm just done w excuses. This is a big year towards the future for kakko and (3rd NHL coach in 5 years) and laffy (3rd NHL coach in 4 years). It's always either the coaches fault or the opportunities. Well if we run into the same thing w three different coaches than at some point it has to fall on the players. Eventually? Right???

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

I actually think a lot of people on these boards would do well by going back and watching some of Laffys goals/highlights from last season. There is something to work with there. Its hard to be a top level professional athlete day in and day out. Some guys get it day 1, others it takes a few seasons. I agree with all that want to see that next step this season, but I just can't understand the people on here who say over and over that there is nothing to work with there.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I brought this up a couple days ago as well, the whole thing becomes a paradox.

I'm just done w excuses. This is a year for kakko (3rd NHL coach in 5 years) and laffy (3rd NHL coach in 4 years). It's always either the coaches fault or the opportunities. Well if we run into the same thing w three different coaches than at some point it has to fall on the players. Eventually? Right???

Its not the coaches. Hopefully just need to mature in to their games. Chytil took steps last season.

I actually think a lot of people on these boards would do well by going back and watching some of Laffys goals/highlights from last season. There is something to work with there. Its hard to be a top level professional athlete day in and day out. Some guys get it day 1, others it takes a few seasons. I agree with all that want to see that next step this season, but I just can't understand the people on here who say over and over that there is nothing to work with there.

Has to be something. Almost every scout had him as #1 but its up to him to get there.

 

[Barnaby]

If this board claims Laf, Chytil, and KK are all top 6 players than they already are playing with top 6 players. We cant say they are top 6 caliper players but then use linemates as a rationalization for a lack of production.

Exactly this. I don’t buy this deployed on the 3rd line nonsense. They are deployed as a scoring line. I keep hearing that Chytil, KK, and Lafreniere all need to be in the top 6. They get a ton of even strength ice time. Lafreniere hasn’t earned being on PP1. Maybe they can try these guys killing penalties. I feel like people want him to pick up an extra 10-15 garbage points to feel better looking at his stat line. What message does it send gifting him PP1 ice time when the team knows he’s not the best option?

 

[Nickmo82]

He just needs to get MSL legs and work with all the skating coaches then he'll be grand.

 

[Synergy27]

He just needs to get MSL legs and work with all the skating coaches then he'll be grand.

Is this kid out there pushing SUVs with Noah Dobson? Why not?

 

[jerseyjinx94]

If this board claims Laf, Chytil, and KK are all top 6 players than they already are playing with top 6 players. We cant say they are top 6 caliper players but then use linemates as a rationalization for a lack of production.

This is a bit disingenuous. “Top 6” is loosely used. If you put three players together who are top 6 caliber, but deploy them as a 3rd line, energy line, with a mandate to get the puck deep and hustle, with limited to no PP time and without opportunities to make plays, you are not actually deploying the players in a top 6 role. The players may be good, may be top 6 caliber linemates, but it’s not that simple. The issue is not so much linemates as it is deployment.

Lafreniere and Kakko have had opportunities, to be sure, but those opportunities were limited and brief. Lafreniere has never been placed in a position where the puck was on his stick looking to make plays with Panarin, Zibanejad, Fox, etc.

I want to be clear though that I do agree Lafreniere’s struggles are not all someone else’s fault. For sure, he takes some blame here. He needs to be more noticeable on a consistent basis.

You guys call all of these circumstances “excuses.” I’ve said this before and it is extremely frustrating, but in 2023, we have all lost the ability to understand nuance and context. Everything is black and white. You have to be able to be disappointed in the player but also understand why he was a disappointment. It doesn’t have to be all his fault or all the organization’s fault. There are a number of factors that have contributed to his lack of production. If you choose not to do that, then you’re just being biased because you’re either frustrated or don’t like the player.

 

[alkurtz]

It's almost like some here want him to fail to justify their like of Gorton, Drury, Quinn and GG.

He has been a disappointment, there can be no doubt about that. Not all #1 picks turn out successfully, that's the nature of drafting 18 year old and trying to project them into the future.

I don't think there is much doubt that his skating will always be an issue no matter how much he works to improve it. But that doesn't mean he cannot be a highly effective top 6 winger.

He is 21 years old. Perhaps immature. Perhaps not as dedicated to conditioning as he should be.

I strongly want him to succeed. Don't you?

Hopefully, he is one of those guys who just needs more time. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. All this speculation about his personal habits, personality, motivation, etc., is just that, speculation. Does anyone here honestly know what he is like aside from what we see in games?

I do agree that any success he may have will not come from external forces (new coaches, etc.) but has to come from within. Will it happen? I hope so, not only for him personally, but for the team, and for us as fans.

I am rooting for him, not ready to give up yet. Skeptical? Sure. Disappointed? Sure. But hopeful? Still.

 

[Barnaby]

I brought this up a couple days ago as well, the whole thing becomes a paradox.

I'm just done w excuses. This is a year for kakko (3rd NHL coach in 5 years) and laffy (3rd NHL coach in 4 years). It's always either the coaches fault or the opportunities. Well if we run into the same thing w three different coaches than at some point it has to fall on the players. Eventually? Right???

It’ll just get dumbed down to “the Rangers can’t develop forwards.”

While ignoring the forwards they have developed from the draft or trading for younger players.

 

[Barnaby]

It's almost like some here want him to fail to justify their like of Gorton, Drury, Quinn and GG.

He has been a disappointment, there can be no doubt about that. Not all #1 picks turn out successfully, that's the nature of drafting 18 year old and trying to project them into the future.

I don't think there is much doubt that his skating will always be an issue no matter how much he works to improve it. But that doesn't mean he cannot be a highly effective top 6 winger.

He is 21 years old. Perhaps immature. Perhaps not as dedicated to conditioning as he should be.

I strongly want him to succeed. Don't you?

Hopefully, he is one of those guys who just needs more time. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. All this speculation about his personal habits, personality, motivation, etc., is just that, speculation. Does anyone here honestly know what he is like aside from what we see in games?

I do agree that any success he may have will not come from external forces (new coaches, etc.) but has to come from within. Will it happen? I hope so, not only for him personally, but for the team, and for us as fans.

I am rooting for him, not ready to give up yet. Skeptical? Sure. Disappointed? Sure. But hopeful? Still.

How does him failing justify the people who drafted him or the coaches who didn’t get the most out of him?

Of course we all want him to succeed and put up 90 points next year. What I’m not willing to do is completely flip the narrative to giving him every excuse in the book. Now we’ve made our way around to he plays on an “energy line.” No, he deployed with Chytil and Kakko as a scoring line. They get very heavy even strength usage. They aren’t playing 6 minutes a night. The reason Lafreniere doesn’t get PP1 time is because he’s not one of the best options. I’m sure we’ll make our way around to blaming the Rangers skills coach again or maybe Lafreniere’s roommate snores so he doesn’t get enough sleep.

Just call a spade a spade. He hasn’t been awful, but he hasn’t been particularly good either, and he has been disappointing, but I’d love for him to go out and blow the doors off the league next season. I just don’t believe he can or will.

 

[NickyFotiu]

This is a bit disingenuous. “Top 6” is loosely used. If you put three players together who are top 6 caliber, but deploy them as a 3rd line, energy line, with a mandate to get the puck deep and hustle, with limited to no PP time and without opportunities to make plays, you are not actually deploying the players in a top 6 role. The players may be good, may be top 6 caliber linemates, but it’s not that simple. The issue is not so much linemates as it is deployment.

Lafreniere and Kakko have had opportunities, to be sure, but those opportunities were limited and brief. Lafreniere has never been placed in a position where the puck was on his stick looking to make plays with Panarin, Zibanejad, Fox, etc.

I want to be clear though that I do agree Lafreniere’s struggles are not all someone else’s fault. For sure, he takes some blame here. He needs to be more noticeable on a consistent basis.

You guys call all of these circumstances “excuses.” I’ve said this before and it is extremely frustrating, but in 2023, we have all lost the ability to understand nuance and context. Everything is black and white. You have to be able to be disappointed in the player but also understand why he was a disappointment. It doesn’t have to be all his fault or all the organization’s fault. There are a number of factors that have contributed to his lack of production. If you choose not to do that, then you’re just being biased because you’re either frustrated or don’t like the player.

Respectfully disagree. We can't continue to say they are all top 6 players and continue to say they never get to play with other top 6 players. That is illogical. Almost all of us want to see all of them succeed. There may be a few exceptions but thats just weird. They are Rangets. Rooting against them is dumb in my opinion. Im 100% for them succeeding.

 

[bhamill]

My young neighbor has always worked since he turned 16. He loves his truck which he pays for. He wants to get his own place. He is shocked how many of his friends do not want to work or even get their drivers licenses. I could not wait to get my drivers license or my own place when I was a teenager. Almost everyone I knew felt the same way when 15-18. I'm not bashing the young kids of today. Its just different for some reason.

well one reason is that housing, and cars, and everything else, were far more affordable a couple few decades ago. I don’t know how old you are but I‘m 61. I bought a house on SI in 96, it was 185K. The value n it now is about 650k. I bought a brand new, the first and only brand new vehicle I ever owned, Yukon for 25k in 94, now it would be 80k, I rented apartments for 550 as a kid, now a one bedroom IS LIKE 2200 or more. How does an adult making 60k a year afford that, never mind a kid? its discouraging for them. Hell. I make good money and I just opted to buy a used pickup. New it was 75k-80k. A 2020 with 20k miles on it I got for 41k, which is both a great deal and still nuts for me to think about. People bag on the drive kids have now, but they have it a lot worse than I did. It’s got to f*** with their outlook.
Like you I did start working early. Very early. And I worked all through HS and college.

 

[NickyFotiu]

well one reason is that housing, and cars, and everything else, were far more affordable a couple few decades ago. I don’t know how old you are but I‘m 61. I bought a house on SI in 96, it was 185K. The value n it now is about 650k. I bought a brand new, the first and only brand new vehicle I ever owned, Yukon for 25k in 94, now it would be 80k, I rented apartments for 550 as a kid, now a one bedroom IS LIKE 2200 or more. How does an adult making 60k a year afford that, never mind a kid? its discouraging for them. Hell. I make good money and I just opted to buy a used pickup. New it was 75k-80k. A 2020 with 20k miles on it I got for 41k, which is still nuts for me to think about. People bag on the drive kids have now, but they have it a lot worse than I did. It’s got to f*** with their outlook.
Like you I did start working early. Very early. And I worked all through HS and college.

I do agree about the house stuff but that depends where you live. Up until the last 3 years of hyper house inflation you could buy a nice new house in many states for $250k. 5 years ago I sold my very nice two story house for $210k. I still would want to work, have my own money/independance and definitely have a drivers license.

 

[bhamill]

If this board claims Laf, Chytil, and KK are all top 6 players than they already are playing with top 6 players. We cant say they are top 6 caliper players but then use linemates as a rationalization for a lack of production.

Actually IMO, having three young players playing together while all trying to find their NHL games is not an ideal for success. Veteran support helps with development. They are each good enough to play second line minutes. Does that mean they are a second line? Seems counter intuitive, but no. There’s a reason it’s rare for the youngest teams to have a high level of success, no matter what the talent level. Young players playing with veterans is generally important.

I do agree about the house stuff but that depends where you live. Up until the last 3 years of hyper house inflation you could buy a nice new house in many states for $250k. 5 years ago I sold my very nice two story house for $210k. I still would want to work, have my own money/independance and definitely have a drivers license.

And in those states you’d be making a third to half of what you do in NY…
I’m with you, I’d still want to work for whatever independence I could, but I certainly didn’t start out with the same boot on my neck that this generation has, unless they are born into money.

 

[alkurtz]

How does him failing justify the people who drafted him or the coaches who didn’t get the most out of him?

Of course we all want him to succeed and put up 90 points next year. What I’m not willing to do is completely flip the narrative to giving him every excuse in the book. Now we’ve made our way around to he plays on an “energy line.” No, he deployed with Chytil and Kakko as a scoring line. They get very heavy even strength usage. They aren’t playing 6 minutes a night. The reason Lafreniere doesn’t get PP1 time is because he’s not one of the best options. I’m sure we’ll make our way around to blaming the Rangers skills coach again or maybe Lafreniere’s roommate snores so he doesn’t get enough sleep.

Just call a spade a spade. He hasn’t been awful, but he hasn’t been particularly good either, and he has been disappointing, but I’d love for him to go out and blow the doors off the league next season. I just don’t believe he can or will.

Sorry, should have read "justify their dislike of Gorton, Drury, Quinn, and GG." That's what you get for not proof reading: my fault, my bad. Personally, I'm more than ready to give him one more year before we call him a failure. With increased opportunity, which of course he must earn, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that he will be 20-40 or 22-38 (60 point total) this year.

But, what I don't get is the visceral dislike of him that many here manifest on a daily basis. I don't particularly care for underachievers either, especially given those given the opportunity to do something most of us what give anything for. But I keep coming back to the fact that he is only 21 and perhaps an immature 21 at that. Another disappointing year will shift him, in my own view, into a different category. But not yet.

 

[bleedblue94]

Its not the coaches. Hopefully just need to mature in to their games. Chytil took steps last season.

I point back to the overall atmosphere of this org and the entitlement it breeds. The only times over the last several decades that there hasnt been entitlement on a large scale was Torts and keenan when they were hated at times. that atmosphere isn't good for young players. kids are going to observe their atmosphere and act accordingly in most circumstances.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I point back to the overall atmosphere of this org and the entitlement it breeds. The only times over the last several decades that there hasnt been entitlement on a large scale was Torts and keenan when they were hated at times. that atmosphere isn't good for young players. kids are going to observe their atmosphere and act accordingly in most circumstances.

I cant say what goes on behind the scenes but we had many young guys work hard. I think Chytil works hard. I think Stepan, Cally, Zooks, Hags, Dubinsky, Kreider, etc all worked hard as young players here. If work and fitness are an issue make it known that certain fitness levels must be reached by first day at training camp. Do we do that?

 

[bleedblue94]

I cant say what goes on behind the scenes but we had many young guys work hard. I think Chytil works hard. I think Stepan, Cally, Zooks, Hags, Dubinsky, Kreider, etc all worked hard as young players here. If work and fitness are an issue make it known that certain fitness levels must be reached by first day at training camp. Do we do that?

every player you mentioned came in here when torts was here (or during the season renney was fired and torts took over). he molded them and demanded a certain level that made some players hate him. the only exception is chytil. you kind of helped my point without realizing it...

 

[haohmaru]

Is this kid out there pushing SUVs with Noah Dobson? Why not?

He's pushing Fiats, I think.

I point back to the overall atmosphere of this org and the entitlement it breeds. The only times over the last several decades that there hasnt been entitlement on a large scale was Torts and keenan when they were hated at times. that atmosphere isn't good for young players. kids are going to observe their atmosphere and act accordingly in most circumstances.

Laviolette isn't an entitlement coach, he's a meritocracy coach. The players just might hate him too. He's got no problem benching whoever whenever if he's not happy with them.

 

[Barnaby]

well one reason is that housing, and cars, and everything else, were far more affordable a couple few decades ago. I don’t know how old you are but I‘m 61. I bought a house on SI in 96, it was 185K. The value n it now is about 650k. I bought a brand new, the first and only brand new vehicle I ever owned, Yukon for 25k in 94, now it would be 80k, I rented apartments for 550 as a kid, now a one bedroom IS LIKE 2200 or more. How does an adult making 60k a year afford that, never mind a kid? its discouraging for them. Hell. I make good money and I just opted to buy a used pickup. New it was 75k-80k. A 2020 with 20k miles on it I got for 41k, which is both a great deal and still nuts for me to think about. People bag on the drive kids have now, but they have it a lot worse than I did. It’s got to f*** with their outlook.
Like you I did start working early. Very early. And I worked all through HS and college.

That’s all well and good, but what does all this have to do with Alexis Lafreniere? He obviously worked hard from a young age to make the NHL and be a 1OA pick. Whether he’s still putting the proper work in now, idk.

On a side note, inflation has been out of control, but we are talking about wealthy young men who mostly worked very hard to get where they are. Some moved across the globe to get where they are.

I think we are going off the rails a bit here.

 

[mas0764]

They get very heavy even strength usage.

But isn't Lafreniere's EV production similar to Kreider and Zibanejad's?

 

[IDvsEGO]

But isn't Lafreniere's EV production similar to Kreider and Zibanejad's?

Kreider sure, but not Mika’s.
Mika has at least 1-2 extra minutes at even strength.
And laf’s even strength production wasn’t far off kreiders.

 

[Barnaby]

I point back to the overall atmosphere of this org and the entitlement it breeds. The only times over the last several decades that there hasnt been entitlement on a large scale was Torts and keenan when they were hated at times. that atmosphere isn't good for young players. kids are going to observe their atmosphere and act accordingly in most circumstances.

Could you imagine what the narrative would be if Torts was here? He can’t develop players. He doesn’t allow them to be creative. They know they’ll get benched if they mess up etc…

 

[mas0764]

Kreider sure, but not Mika’s.
Mika has at least 1-2 extra minutes at even strength.
And laf’s even strength production wasn’t far off kreiders.

There's a graphic floating around somewhere. Since 2020-21 Lafreniere has more even strength goals than Zibanejad.