Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[EdJovanovski]

Except I never said anything about "magically transforming" I said something about him developing... OVER TIME, like MOST high picks... Getting better quality ice time and power play time is the norm for high draft pick development, even when they suck at first.
I'm not sure I buy 24% body fat, that was not a verified thing, But I DO agree he needs to bust his ass this off season and come in ready to take that step. This point and what I said are certainly not mutually exclusive and are actually complimentary.


Somebody knows somebody who tests players at camp and that person allegedly said Laf was 24% body fat. I'm not sure which year that was supposed to be. But I also am not just accepting that as true. Regardless he needs to work this off season and come in as well prepared and fit as possible.

You are the most optimistic person I’ve ever seen on this site lol

 

[bhamill]

He got a ton of EV ice time, they tried him on every line, what more do you want the team to do? Do you honestly believe PP 1 time was going to make him a better player? I don't. At what point do we look at the player and ask, what are you doing to put yourself in the best position to succeed? We agree, he needs to work harder this summer. Hopefully he does.

He got about 15:15 a game. Mostly with two other young players trying to also find their pro games. He was tried on other lines for short stints and yanked even when he looked good. That is not the norm for high picks that teams are looking to develop. I'm not sure how it's arguable. Laf certainly did not get the same treatment as high draft picks usually do. If you don't think that makes a difference, that's fine. We simply disagree on that. But the fact that he was treated differently than most high picks, and not for the betterment of his development, is just fact.

You are the most optimistic person I’ve ever seen on this site lol

It's my toxic trait!

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

He got about 15:15 a game. Mostly with two other young players trying to also find their pro games. He was tried on other lines for short stints and yanked even when he looked good. That is not the norm for high picks that teams are looking to develop. I'm not sure how it's arguable. Laf certainly did not get the same treatment as high draft picks usually do. If you don't think that makes a difference, that's fine. We simply disagree on that. But the fact that he was treated differently than most high picks, and not for the betterment of his development, is just fact.


It's my toxic trait!

How about be better with the ice time you get? What has he done consistently well with 15:15 he gets every game to prove to you he should get more ice time? Forget where he was drafted and be objective, what kind of player is he? I think we need to face facts that even though he went 1 OA, he's not as good as other players that got drafted in the same position.

 

[duhmetreE]

I think a major problem is everyone was trying to emulate Panarin and that style. Since there's no structure, that's what people default to. It doesn't work. It leads to a lot of puck watching and stagnancy. We look slow, well because we are on the slower side, but we play even slower.

I said it before... Kids know when they are relentless and cycle it works. If they had some coaching sprinkled in, they may figure out ways to get consistent/good scoring chances.

 

[UnSandvich]

Laf-Zib-Kakko was a line for 4ish games. They had 4 goals over that span, and allowed 1 iirc. They were never put back together.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I didn't even realize, Lafreniere and Kakko were 3rd and 4th for forwards in 5v5 TOI per game not including Kane and Tarasenko, ahead of Zibanejad, Kreider, and Chytil. So is it only when they play the most ice time per game at 5v5 will they finally begin to produce at the rate we expected? Even though Zibanejad, Kreider, and Chytil outproduced them?

 

[LokiDog]

I didn't even realize, Lafreniere and Kakko were 3rd and 4th for forwards in 5v5 TOI per game not including Kane and Tarasenko, ahead of Zibanejad, Kreider, and Chytil. So is it only when they play the most ice time per game at 5v5 will they finally begin to produce at the rate we expected? Even though Zibanejad, Kreider, and Chytil outproduced them?

Actually we shouldn’t be tiring them out by playing them so much at 5v5. Stupid coach. Give them LESS ice time but make it “top six” ice time. Duh.

 

[mrmovies779]

laf had 24% body fat?that explains what happened with Zac Jones disappearance...Laf ate him

 

[Daves a mess]

I still believe in Laf..not ready to give up on the kids yet.That being said,its do or die time,kids.No more excuses

I think I typed this exact same post in June of last year. KK has a roster spot because we porn star suck on RW.

Lafs trajectory peaked the moment Gorts waddled up to the podium on Draft day.

I'm all for Laf yucking it up to Montreal for a fair price.

If you cant move Bread, bring on Brennan and Cuylle. Move Laf.

 

[bhamill]

How about be better with the ice time you get? What has he done consistently well with 15:15 he gets every game to prove to you he should get more ice time? Forget where he was drafted and be objective, what kind of player is he? I think we need to face facts that even though he went 1 OA, he's not as good as other players that got drafted in the same position.

How about that AND we actually do things with our high picks that are conducive to development? hahaha. Why is this so arcane a concept?
He's a 21 year old D+3 3rd/2nd liner that plays a physical game... if he was a second rounder we'd be thrilled. If you want to ignore his draft position for the sake of development, you need to start ignoring it for the sake of judging him as a player. Can't have it both ways.
Also, you sound like our coaching/development team: Just do better. Hahaha. no game plan, just do it better.

Actually we shouldn’t be tiring them out by playing them so much at 5v5. Stupid coach. Give them LESS ice time but make it “top six” ice time. Duh.

ahahaha. This made me laugh pretty hard, buddy.

 

[CLW]

I think a major problem is everyone was trying to emulate Panarin and that style. Since there's no structure, that's what people default to. It doesn't work. It leads to a lot of puck watching and stagnancy. We look slow, well because we are on the slower side, but we play even slower.

I said it before... Kids know when they are relentless and cycle it works. If they had some coaching sprinkled in, they may figure out ways to get consistent/good scoring chances.

And some help from the blueline. Good cycling teams move around in the zone as a unit.

 

[LORDE]

Where was this "Laf overweight" stuff reported?

Can someone link? I missed it

 

[NickyFotiu]

How about be better with the ice time you get? What has he done consistently well with 15:15 he gets every game to prove to you he should get more ice time? Forget where he was drafted and be objective, what kind of player is he? I think we need to face facts that even though he went 1 OA, he's not as good as other players that got drafted in the same position.

My dad taught me you do not give up on guys at age 21 so I'm staying patient for the most part with Laf and even KK. They both owe it to themselves and the Rangers to be working on their skating 4-5 hours a day 4-5 days a week this offseason. Will they do that? Doubtful but I did as a kid during one summer. It paid off for me.

Now with that said will people get off the minutes nonsense. You see great players abilities in their first shifts, the 5th shifts and their 10th shifts. It is not logical to think Laf or any other player can only show their skills once they hit their 12th to 20th shifts of a game. It is not logical to expect a good player to only look good in the 3rd period with additional minutes. Don't we see good players making good plays in the first period? The second period? Why should we expect Laf or any other player to look like a different much better player once they hit their 18th minute of a game?

 

[McRanger92]

Where was this "Laf overweight" stuff reported?

Can someone link? I missed it

It was implied by Valliquette on the Garden Faithful podcast after the Devils series. More "out of shape" than overweight though

 

[LORDE]

It was implied by Valliquette on the Garden Faithful podcast after the Devils series. More "out of shape" than overweight though

Copy thanks

 

[NickyFotiu]

It was implied by Valliquette on the Garden Faithful podcast after the Devils series. More "out of shape" than overweight though

Very hard for anyone to excel at this game if they are out of shape. Maybe in the 1970's but not today.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

My dad taught me you do not give up on guys at age 21 so I'm staying patient for the most part with Laf and even KK. They both owe it to themselves and the Rangers to be working on their skating 4-5 hours a day 4-5 days a week this offseason. Will they do that? Doubtful but I did as a kid during one summer. It paid off for me.

Now with that said will people get off the minutes nonsense. You see great players abilities in their first shifts, the 5th shifts and their 10th shifts. It is not logical to think Laf or any other player can only show their skills once they hit their 12th to 20th shifts of a game. It is not logical to expect a good player to only look good in the 3rd period with additional minutes. Don't we see good players making good plays in the first period? The second period? Why should we expect Laf or any other player to look like a different much better player once they hit their 18th minute of a game?

I'm just over the whole they ruined his development narrative.

 

[bhamill]

My dad taught me you do not give up on guys at age 21 so I'm staying patient for the most part with Laf and even KK. They both owe it to themselves and the Rangers to be working on their skating 4-5 hours a day 4-5 days a week this offseason. Will they do that? Doubtful but I did as a kid during one summer. It paid off for me.

Now with that said will people get off the minutes nonsense. You see great players abilities in their first shifts, the 5th shifts and their 10th shifts. It is not logical to think Laf or any other player can only show their skills once they hit their 12th to 20th shifts of a game. It is not logical to expect a good player to only look good in the 3rd period with additional minutes. Don't we see good players making good plays in the first period? The second period? Why should we expect Laf or any other player to look like a different much better player once they hit their 18th minute of a game?

I don't think anyone thinks more shifts/TOI in a game will make the player better IN THAT GAME... But the experience and workload, depending on the quality/type of minutes will contribute to a shorter development arc. At least that has always been the way I thought of it. The other way never even entered my mind as a possibility.
But anyway on a "by game" basis, of course the MORE you are on the ice in a game, of course the better the odds that any particular player will have a scoring opportunity in that game.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Copy thanks

He also said Laff needed to put the golf clubs away this summer and focus on training. I don't think Vally would say something like that if it weren't true considering he's employed by MSG.

 

[bhamill]

I'm just over the whole they ruined his development narrative.

That's your prerogative, but you being "over it" doesn't change anything.

He also said Laff needed to put the golf clubs away this summer and focus on training. I don't think Vally would say something like that if it weren't true considering he's employed by MSG.

Yeah even if he wasnt employed by MSG, I wouldn't take him as just lying about shit.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I'm just over the whole they ruined his development narrative.

It is very dumb. It is very hard and very rare to ruin a player. It is a lazy argument and usually just a narrative to insult the team. It is never logical. Why would any GM want to ruin a player? The better the players do the better the GM does.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I don't think anyone thinks more shifts/TOI in a game will make the player better IN THAT GAME... But the experience and workload, depending on the quality/type of minutes will contribute to a shorter development arc. At least that has always been the way I thought of it. The other way never even entered my mind as a possibility.
But anyway on a "by game" basis, of course the MORE you are on the ice in a game, of course the better the odds that any particular player will have a scoring opportunity in that game.

bhamill I like your posts. You are one of the best posters on this board. Go watch McDavid. Go watch Hughes. Go watch Makar. Go watch You will see their skills often from their very first 3 shirts if not their very first shift. Laf has played 3 seasons. It is not about scoring. CK came in to the league with great skating. We saw it right away. It did not take 18 minutes a game. If we are not seeing Laf's skills in his early shifts we are not going to see them if we force feed him an extra 3 minutes a game. That does not mean Laf can not get there but it will take work on his part. He is too young to write off but the team should be all in on him pushing him to work on his skating and stick handling at least 25 hours a week during this offseason. KK as well. They should come in to camp in superhuman shape if they really want to be star players. Are they willing to put in the work? I'm 100% in support of them but its not about minutes. Almost all skill improvements come outside of games.

 

[bhamill]

bhamill I like your posts. You are one of the best posters on this board. Go watch McDavid. Go watch Hughes. Go watch Makar. Go watch You will see their skills often from their very first 3 shirts if not their very first shift. Laf has played 3 seasons. It is not about scoring. CK came in to the league with great skating. We saw it right away. It did not take 18 minutes a game. If we are not seeing Laf's skills in his early shifts we are not going to see them if we force feed him an extra 3 minutes a game. That does not mean Laf can not get there but it will take work on his part. He is too young to write off but the team should be all in on him pushing him to work on his skating and stick handling at least 25 hours a week during this offseason. KK as well. They should come in to camp in superhuman shape if they really want to be star players. Are they willing to put in the work? I'm 100% in support of them but its not about minutes. Almost all skill improvements come outside of games.

Thanks, buddy. Likewise.
No I completely agree with you, you won't see a jump in ability from the first shift to a late shift just because he got more time. In fact if he IS out of shape you may see a drop.
The two things I was trying to get across were:
A. more TOI, better chance you get on the board, simply because you are on the ice more, not because you transformed from your first shift. That goes for McDavid too. He's much more likely to score getting 18 minutes than 13 minutes.
B. more TOI/responsibility per game will develop a player more OVER THE COURSE OF A SEASON. I didn't at all mean anyone is a better player in any particular game on their 19th shift than their 3rd (allowing a little time to get into the game. hahah)

 

[bbny]

I didn't even realize, Lafreniere and Kakko were 3rd and 4th for forwards in 5v5 TOI per game not including Kane and Tarasenko, ahead of Zibanejad, Kreider, and Chytil. So is it only when they play the most ice time per game at 5v5 will they finally begin to produce at the rate we expected? Even though Zibanejad, Kreider, and Chytil outproduced them?

Most people don't realize that TOI distribution. I think they actually produced reasonably fine for their age at 5v5, and the expectation for them at 21-22 shouldn't be that they have to outproduce a star player like Zibanejad at even strength or they are busts, even if their draft billing said they could by now. It's not that black and white. They could close the gap even more next year.

The issue is their overall point totals stink because they don't get quality PP time. There's no question it has a major effect on their confidence, which can also have a negative impact on 5v5 play when they have to deal with "35 point 3rd line bust" labels all year and offseason. It feels like the team is at a crossroads where they need to either commit to these guys with legitimate PP opportunity, or just trade them. Preferably the former because I don't believe the current core is a couple of tweaks in the support players away from a Cup. It's a waste of time and we might as well see what happens committing to the kids for a spell instead, then adjust accordingly next summer.

 

[SA16]

Most people don't realize that TOI distribution. I think they actually produced reasonably fine for their age at 5v5, and the expectation for them at 21-22 shouldn't be that they have to outproduce a star player like Zibanejad at even strength or they are busts, even if their draft billing said they could by now. It's not that black and white. They could close the gap even more next year.

The issue is their overall point totals stink because they don't get quality PP time. There's no question it has a major effect on their confidence, which can also have a negative impact on 5v5 play when they have to deal with "35 point 3rd line bust" labels all year and offseason. It feels like the team is at a crossroads where they need to either commit to these guys with legitimate PP opportunity, or just trade them. Preferably the former because I don't believe the current core is a couple of tweaks in the support players away from a Cup. It's a waste of time and we might as well see what happens committing to the kids for a spell instead, then adjust accordingly next summer.

The expectation is not for them to produce or put up point totals. It's to look like players who are capable of doing so. Lafreniere has that one great goal two years in a row. That's about it. Kakko makes some strong plays on the boards. Neither of them does much to wow you and giving them more minutes/PP time isn't going to change that. They need to work in the offseason and come into next year and look the part like they can be difference makers.