Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[EdJovanovski]

Replying here because that thread got locked
@kyk1827
“Laff aint going anywhere. Comparing him and jack hughes, laff was not just better but pretty significantly better in his first 2 years than hughes at 5v5 play. And im not saying he’ll be better than hughes. Laff has had one bad year and now we should ship him off for a 2nd? LOL.

Hes a surefire 30/30 player, thats his floor for career median production”

You can’t be serious. Laf was NOT significantly better than Hughes and you’re setting yourself up for disappointment if you think he was.

 

[bleedblue94]

And to think how many people were already penciling in laffy as the team captain by year 2-3 of him coming here. There was a legitimate movement to not name a captain and just wait for him to be ready to take it after a year or two in NHL. It's amazing how much things have changed, and if there's any truth to him still not having committed to his fitness it's even more of a harsh reminder of what's going on. And for those that keep complaining about his ice time, I brought up a couple months ago it was possible he wasn't playing as much per game simply because he wasn't good enough shape to play that many minutes a game. That got laughed at and dismissed but now that valley has basically come out and said he's not committed physically at away from the rink I think people can start to understand why his minutes haven't been where we would want them to be. People keep pointing at so many other things besides the actual person, he has not put himself in the best position to succeed. You think critique coaching staffs and organizations, but the player himself can control himself, and he still is not gotten himself ready to be the best that he can be

 

[Shadowtron]

And to think how many people were already penciling in laffy as the team captain by year 2-3 of him coming here. There was a legitimate movement to not name a captain and just wait for him to be ready to take it after a year or two in NHL. It's amazing how much things have changed, and if there's any truth to him still not having committed to his fitness it's even more of a harsh reminder of what's going on. And for those that keep complaining about his ice time, I brought up a couple months ago it was possible he wasn't playing as much per game simply because he wasn't good enough shape to play that many minutes a game. That got laughed at and dismissed but now that valley has basically come out and said he's not committed physically at away from the rink I think people can start to understand why his minutes haven't been where we would want them to be. People keep pointing at so many other things besides the actual person, he has not put himself in the best position to succeed. You think critique coaching staffs and organizations, but the player himself can control himself, and he still is not gotten himself ready to be the best that he can be

Nevermind Captain material...he's not even 1st round pick material at this point lol. Looks like a late 2nd or early 3rd rounder.

 

[Ruggs225]

My take.

Laff was put in a really shitty position for a player of his pedigree (so was Kakko). Between COVID, two shitty coaches and the fact they are blocked from meaningful PP or top line minutes. All this was detrimental to their growth.


On the other hand, Laff (and kakko) has not shown the determination, killer instinct and drive that superstars with their draft positions have shown. Regardless of how awful the coaches were (and they were both atrocious), neither has shown the desire or ethic to force a coaches hand. That is on them.

 

[McRanger92]

My take.

Laff was put in a really shitty position for a player of his pedigree (so was Kakko). Between COVID, two shitty coaches and the fact they are blocked from meaningful PP or top line minutes. All this was detrimental to their growth.


On the other hand, Laff (and kakko) has not shown the determination, killer instinct and drive that superstars with their draft positions have shown. Regardless of how awful the coaches were (and they were both atrocious), neither has shown the desire or ethic to force a coaches hand. That is on them.

This entire thread has been people trying to act like both cant be true. The player sucks and is out of shape and will never amount to anything OR the organization has failed him beyond repair. No in-between. If there's anything I've realized in my many years lurking & posting on this site, is that the answer is always in the in-between. Give the Kid a chance to redeem himself, but the clock is ticking. Much like it was for Chytil and Kakko before their conditioning improved. We've had the same conversation the last 2 summers about Chytil and Kakko and people still think Lafreniere is a special case.

 

[Ruggs225]

I also try to think about being in these kids shoes. Laff has always been the guy. Now he comes into a situation where basically no matter how well he plays he is going to be blocked by panarin and Kreider unless he moves to off wing. Also playing or a coach who is f***ing clueless and just defers to the vets.

I know it would be hard for me to be motivated in that situation.

Also it was stated, by kakko i believe, that there was no feedback from Gallant on any decision which also would infuriate and frustrate me.

So i think alot of shit is mental with those two. Hopefully a new coach brings a new attitude and desire to be the best. It all starts in the head.

 

[EdJovanovski]

I also try to think about being in these kids shoes. Laff has always been the guy. Now he comes into a situation where basically no matter how well he plays he is going to be blocked by panarin and Kreider unless he moves to off wing. Also playing or a coach who is f***ing clueless and just defers to the vets.

I know it would be hard for me to be motivated in that situation.

Also it was stated, by kakko i believe, that there was no feedback from Gallant on any decision which also would infuriate and frustrate me.

So i think alot of shit is mental with those two. Hopefully a new coach brings a new attitude and desire to be the best. It all starts in the head.

Only Messier can unlock his potential

 

[Ruggs225]

Only Messier can unlock his potential

Its 5 oclock wherever u are i guess

 

[LokiDog]

There’s a contingent of fans who seem convinced that in an alternative universe Laf is drafted by Ottawa and thrown on 1st line and 1st PP and has just wrapped up an 85 point season.

He was done no favors here in NY but he also hasn’t shown anything - not one thing - that has ever made me think he has the type of skill to put up that production regardless of where he plays, how much, who with, etc.

This is the disconnect, IMO. Would PP1 time have fixed his skating? Has he been holding back because he was told to be a grinder? I could see Laf having like an extra 10 points on the top PP. That would bring him to 49. He’s already getting top 100 minutes at 5v5 which is almost 1st line at ES. Let’s say he got 20 extra PP points. That’s 59 points, and unrealistic.

It’s also still 30 points shy of the potential he supposedly had on draft day, which the Rangers apparently messed up. Where are those extra 30 points coming from? He can’t play much more at ES. He’s 98th in the league for forwards. Quadruple his PP time and assume it results in 25 points. You now have a 60 point player. Where’s the talent to be an 80-90 point player coming from? The ether? You cannot possibly tell me you watch Laf play and think, yeah, this guy could put up 85 points.

That same missing talent to account for the extra 30-40+ points is also very likely WHY he doesn’t get more PP time. I’m not convinced that putting him on PP1 does net him 25 extra points, and it may just make our PP less effective. So… even when spotting him 20 additional points for the PP time that he isn’t getting (and bringing him up to a 59 point player) where is the 90 point 1OA guy?

At some point it’s about Laf and not his usage. You don’t think he’s been assigned workouts and nutrition plans and told to work on his skating, etc? At some point the onus is on Lafreniere to decide if he wants to live up to his draft billing and put in the work or not.

 

[bhamill]

Kakko played the 76th most EV minutes of any forward in the NHL. Considering there’s 32 teams and 3 forwards per line, that’s 96 top line forwards, not factoring injuries, line shuffling etc. Laf played the 98th most EV minutes of any NHL forward. Kakko was also 149th in total time on ice for any forward in the league, ahead of a lot of much bigger names. Laf was 158th in total minutes. Again, between top two lines there’s 192 forwards minimum. They firmly recorded top six minutes.

Kakko’s production versus minutes is actually more disappointing. The 76th most even strength minutes in the league and outside the top 150 in production. 257th in the league in PP production. Something like 105th in EV production. Laf was lower in every category BUT closer to where he ranked in TOI vs Production. They both need to improve dramatically and a ton of it comes down to skating and commitment off the ice.

Now do it for players only in their D+3-4. This is only a valid criticism, or evaluation of their worth, if you believe these players are finished products at ages 21 and 22. Which is your prerogative, but not something you should expect everyone else to accept.

 

[EdJovanovski]

There’s a contingent of fans who seem convinced that in an alternative universe Laf is drafted by Ottawa and thrown on 1st line and 1st PP and has just wrapped up an 85 point season.

He was done no favors here in NY but he also hasn’t shown anything - not one thing - that has ever made me think he has the type of skill to put up that production regardless of where he plays, how much, who with, etc.

This is the disconnect, IMO. Would PP1 time have fixed his skating? Has he been holding back because he was told to be a grinder? I could see Laf having like an extra 10 points on the top PP. That would bring him to 49. He’s already getting top 100 minutes at 5v5 which is almost 1st line at ES. Let’s say he got 20 extra PP points. That’s 59 points, and unrealistic.

It’s also still 30 points shy of the potentially he supposedly had on draft day, which the Rangers apparently messed up. Where are those extra 30 points coming from? He can’t play much more at ES. He’s 98th in the league for forwards. Quadruple his PP time and assume it results in 25 points. You now have a 60 point player. Where’s the talent to be an 80-90 point player coming from? The ether? You cannot possibly tell me you watch Laf play and think, yeah, this guy could put up 85 points.

That same missing talent to account for the extra 30 points is also very likely WHY he doesn’t get more PP time. I’m not convinced that putting him on PP1 does net him 25 extra points, and it may just make our PP less effective. So when spotting him 20 additional points for the PP time that he isn’t getting (and bringing him up to a 59 point player) where is the 90 point 1OA guy?

At some point it’s about Laf and not his usage. You don’t think he’s been assigned workouts and nutrition plans and told to work on his skating, etc? At some point the onus is on Lafreniere to decide if he wants to live up to his draft billing and put in the work or not.

I’m one of the biggest critics of the Rangers organization on here but this is absolutely correct. I think we suck at development too, BUT when players step on the ice for each shift they still have free will. I hate Gallant as much as the next guy but do we really think it Laf deked out 2 guys and went flying down the wing, went around the net and pulled off a Michigan Gallant was going to give him shit? Lmao.

And it just so happens that we finally lucked into a 1st & 2nd overall pick just for both of their biggest knocks against them to be their skating & speed. That’s what the modern NHL is based on. I don’t know if any team ever in history won 2 draft lotteries back to back and both of those “can’t miss talents” biggest weakness was their skating. Usually guys near the top of drafts are great skaters. It’s also cope to think this is just because we haven’t hired skating coaches or some other BS, Laf was groomed for this his whole life and would’ve spent countless hours with skating coaches. He just so happens to not have many fast twitch muscle fibers and is not naturally an explosive guy.

I can’t believe some fans are saying he’s better than Jack Hughes was at the same point. Even though Hughes wasn’t productive at first, when you watched him you still saw the talent that got him drafted first overall. He looked like an elite skater who oozed skill but was totally overwhelmed by the physicality of the NHL game. He looked like the young stud who gets called up to play in a higher age group but struggles due to size & strength.

If you didn’t know any better you’d think Laf was a 35 year old career journeyman, not a 21 year old high end pick. Same could go for Kakko. It’s f***ing sad that when we had McKegg as #14 and every so often he’d have a rush where he dekes a guy and goes flying down the wing and I just saw the second number (4) on his jersey and mistook him for Kakko and got excited. Guys like Jimmy Vesey, Greg McKegg, etc flash more than Laf has. He’s not weaker and just not developed enough for the NHL like Hughes was. He just doesn’t have the talent or any of the tools necessary to be a star in the NHL. With Hughes you knew he was going to become more physically developed and stronger and able to use his elite skating, hands, etc once he got there.

 

[LokiDog]

Yes, with Hughes it was never in question WHERE the skill to put up 70-80-90 points was going to come from. The question was whether or not a guy built like a 12 year old could make it translate at the NHL level, whether he could stay healthy, battle through checks, etc while catching up to NHL speed. But from day one you saw the hands, the speed and edge work, the creativity, etc.

With Laf I am saying if he lead the league in PP time and 5v5 time, do you really see someone who is going to be better than a 65 point player? 70? 75, tops? If everything goes right? The guy who got those minutes this year scored 153 points. So let’s say he just got average first unit PP minutes and average top six ES minutes. What’s his ceiling? 65 points? Where did the skill go? What made him a 1OA talent?

 

[bhamill]

Replying here because that thread got locked
@kyk1827
“Laff aint going anywhere. Comparing him and jack hughes, laff was not just better but pretty significantly better in his first 2 years than hughes at 5v5 play. And im not saying he’ll be better than hughes. Laff has had one bad year and now we should ship him off for a 2nd? LOL.

Hes a surefire 30/30 player, thats his floor for career median production”

You can’t be serious. Laf was NOT significantly better than Hughes and you’re setting yourself up for disappointment if you think he was.

In their D+1's Laf certainly was better. I'm not sure how that's arguable. They scored the same points, Hughes 9 fewer at EV with 5 games more and Hughes getting 2 mins more per game.
Their D+2:
Hughes: 31 pts, 24 EV in 56 games with 19mins a game.
Laf: 31 pts, 31 EV in 79 games with about 14mins a game.
If you don't want to do the math, that's 0.42PPG at EV for Hughes 0.55PPG overall.
For Laf 0.39PPG EV/overall, as he got no powerpaly time.
Yeah, I'd say Hughes definitely had a better D+2, but not by that much.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Yes, with Hughes it was never in question WHERE the skill to put up 70-80-90 points was going to come from. The question was whether or not a guy built like a 12 year old could make it translate at the NHL level, whether he could stay healthy, battle through checks, etc while catching up to NHL speed. But from day one you saw the hands, the speed and edge work, the creativity, etc.

With Laf I am saying if he lead the league in PP time and 5v5 time, do you really see someone who is going to be better than a 65 point player? 70? 75, tops? If everything goes right? The guy who got those minutes this year scored 153 points. So let’s say he just got average first unit PP minutes and average top six ES minutes. What’s his ceiling? 65 points? Where did the skill go? What made him a 1OA talent?

I’ve posted this before but tell me this isn’t the least impressive 7 point game in the history of hockey

Some plays are literally him bungling pucks, fanning on shots, throwing a bunch of weak poorly aimed shots in a row at the net and the puck keeps bouncing back to him as he scores on his 4th rebound because defense is nonexistent in the Q.

 

[McRanger92]

I’ve posted this before but tell me this isn’t the least impressive 7 point game in the history of hockey

Some plays are literally him bungling pucks, fanning on shots, throwing a bunch of weak poorly aimed shots in a row at the net and the puck keeps bouncing back to him as he scores on his 4th rebound because defense is nonexistent in the Q.

Looks like Kravstov's entire career tbh, only Laf actually scored some points

 

[EdJovanovski]

Looks like Kravstov's entire career tbh

Many 7pt games in store indeed but he’ll do it with more style

 

[Brutananadilewski]

Looks like Kravstov's entire career tbh, only Laf actually scored some points

 

[McRanger92]

Many 7pt games in store indeed but he’ll do it with more style

He'll be a core guy for the Abbotsford Canucks. Im sure the climate is similar to Chelyabinsk

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

And to think how many people were already penciling in laffy as the team captain by year 2-3 of him coming here. There was a legitimate movement to not name a captain and just wait for him to be ready to take it after a year or two in NHL.

I don't blame fans for getting incredibly excited, the franchise has been starved for a player like this for 100 years. We all bought into the hype and thought we were getting our own MacKinnon. I still think there's hope for him to be a 70 point player but he needs to get more serious about his career.

 

[LaffyTaffy13]

Replying here because that thread got locked
@kyk1827
“Laff aint going anywhere. Comparing him and jack hughes, laff was not just better but pretty significantly better in his first 2 years than hughes at 5v5 play. And im not saying he’ll be better than hughes. Laff has had one bad year and now we should ship him off for a 2nd? LOL.

Hes a surefire 30/30 player, thats his floor for career median production”

You can’t be serious. Laf was NOT significantly better than Hughes and you’re setting yourself up for disappointment if you think he was.

Laff’s year 1 and 2 compared to hughes year 1 and 2 at 5v5 was better. Its not my opinion but rather a fact the data shows.

Im not saying he’ll be better than hughes, i dont think he will. But hes a sure fire floor 30/30 guy as a median year.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Lafreniere also shot at one of the highest rates in the league his first two years with a lot of his goals being him tapping loose pucks home around the net, while having a really low shot rate in general. But I don't know why the discussion always seems to return to a comparison between he and Hughes first two years when he's now completed his third season and hasn't shown much improvement while Jack Hughes was already a star player after his third season in the league. It's a ridiculous comparison to make.

 

[Ruggs225]

In their D+1's Laf certainly was better. I'm not sure how that's arguable. They scored the same points, Hughes 9 fewer at EV with 5 games more and Hughes getting 2 mins more per game.
Their D+2:
Hughes: 31 pts, 24 EV in 56 games with 19mins a game.
Laf: 31 pts, 31 EV in 79 games with about 14mins a game.
If you don't want to do the math, that's 0.42PPG at EV for Hughes 0.55PPG overall.
For Laf 0.39PPG EV/overall, as he got no powerpaly time.
Yeah, I'd say Hughes definitely had a better D+2, but not by that much.

Also of note..lafs d+2 year was when Gallant became coachZ


Hughes started developing and Laff suddenly stagnated.

Im not absolving Laf here. He definitely needs to be more motivated and aggressive. But i 100% believe gallant stunted the f*** out of his development and mentally.

Its also no coincidence that two stud top 2 picks completely stalled in development when gallant became coach and both look mentally lost.

Once your head is checked out the body follows and i 100% believe gallant destroyed these two mentally and gave no good feedback for growth.

But we shall see. I honestly wouldt be surprised with huge growth from both of them this year depending on the hire.

 

[mas0764]

Where did the skill go? What made him a 1OA talent?

My opinion as I've said is that (a) his lack of foot speed is holding him back, but even moreso (b) his lack of brain speed is holding him back. He's not thinking the game fast enough.

It could end up being a fatal flaw, but if he gets over it, and many have at age 21, he has plenty of skill to be an impact player. You aren't seeing the skill because every time he touches the puck he's swarmed into a turnover because he's thinking and skating too slowly.

I think it has a ton to do with the system and coaching or lack thereof.

Like every player who comes here, they shrink on offense.

No surprise that 4 straight top ten picks have all underwhelmed and not developed any offense.

 

[bhamill]

I’ve posted this before but tell me this isn’t the least impressive 7 point game in the history of hockey

Some plays are literally him bungling pucks, fanning on shots, throwing a bunch of weak poorly aimed shots in a row at the net and the puck keeps bouncing back to him as he scores on his 4th rebound because defense is nonexistent in the Q.

And yet all the other players in the Q didn't score like him...

 

[mas0764]

I’ve posted this before but tell me this isn’t the least impressive 7 point game in the history of hockey

Some plays are literally him bungling pucks, fanning on shots, throwing a bunch of weak poorly aimed shots in a row at the net and the puck keeps bouncing back to him as he scores on his 4th rebound because defense is nonexistent in the Q.

Yeah Lafreniere doesn't have the pure flash that Hughes does and he never has. So if you are saying we still need a Jack Hughes, yes that is true (and it's why we cut off our rebuild too early).

He still has a knack for making plays, finding openings, driving offense, etc. It tells me his success in those lesser leagues was based on instinct and it's failing him right now.