Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[mas0764]

Also of note..lafs d+2 year was when Gallant became coachZ


Hughes started developing and Laff suddenly stagnated.

Im not absolving Laf here. He definitely needs to be more motivated and aggressive. But i 100% believe gallant stunted the f*** out of his development and mentally.

Its also no coincidence that two stud top 2 picks completely stalled in development when gallant became coach and both look mentally lost.

Once your head is checked out the body follows and i 100% believe gallant destroyed these two mentally and gave no good feedback for growth.

But we shall see. I honestly wouldt be surprised with huge growth from both of them this year depending on the hire.

Just like with Kravtsov, both are to blame.

Yes, Lafreniere can't show up out of shape and has to take ownership for realizing what he lacks and improving it. Too much smoke around this being a topic for it to be completely untrue (ie, Valliquette's commentary).

It also can be true, and is true, frankly, that the team is failing it's young kids with lack of structure.

I'm not in the room so I don't know what they are doing wrong but it would be a monumental, unprecedented coincidence that the Rangers last like, 8 forward high draft picks all just were too lazy to develop their games quickly. Even Kreider took FOREVER to turn into a true useful player. In conjunction with their trades and free agent acquisitions, except basically for Panarin and Zibanejad, also always looking underwhelming, yeah, it's in the water here.

 

[bhamill]

Lafreniere also shot at one of the highest rates in the league his first two years with a lot of his goals being him tapping loose pucks home around the net, while having a really low shot rate in general. But I don't know why the discussion always seems to return to a comparison between he and Hughes first two years when he's now completed his third season and hasn't shown much improvement while Jack Hughes was already a star player after his third season in the league. It's a ridiculous comparison to make.

Well, Ed brought it up here...
Anyway, the reason I reference it is usually because of people saying Laf didn't earn the responsibilities, minutes and pp time that Jack Hughes has gotten from the get go and was never removed from. The point being MOST high draft picks don't earn it, they are GIVEN it. And that usage helps shorten their development curve. Laf NOT getting that has LENGTHED his development curve in comparison. If you want to tell me Hughes "earned it" while performing worse overall for his D+1 and D+2, but Laf didn't, I use the comparison to call bullshit. That's it. And with our teams in completely different modes I DO understand why NYR took the tact they did, while still understanding that it has contributed to a lack of steps forward for Laf. This is all a rehash though. We both know where each other stand on this.

 

[will1066]

So many unquantifiable factors affect development. I know if I'm a historically high performer and widely acknowledged as a rock star all my life and then go into an environment where the coaches (in the real world, this means your bosses at work) jerk you around constantly and you know deep down that they're actually incompetent (as we're acknowledging now from player interview remarks, etc.), then I'd tune out and become disengaged. It's hard to get motivated when you see the lack of accountability with certain players (in the real world, this would be your more senior workmates) and it's a different standard applied to you. Whatever you're playing for (in the real world, this would be the work that you do) is driven by your own instrinsic motivation. Your extrinsic motivation has been pummeled out of you.

 

[LORDE]

So many unquantifiable factors affect development. I know if I'm a historically high performer and widely acknowledged as a rock star all my life and then go into an environment where the coaches (in the real world, this means your bosses at work) jerk you around constantly and you know deep down that they're actually incompetent (as we're acknowledging now from player interview remarks, etc.), then I'd tune out and become disengaged. It's hard to get motivated when you see the lack of accountability with certain players (in the real world, this would be your more senior workmates) and it's a different standard applied to you. Whatever you're playing for (in the real world, this would be the work that you do) is driven by your own instrinsic motivation. Your extrinsic motivation has been pummeled out of you.

Well this will be his 3rd coach in the NHL right? We'll see if he finally responds to the "right" coach. I mean this is getting into Panarin territory... if he can't play with this guy, or NEEDS to play with that guy to be effective, he's not worth 11.6M

If we have to hand pick our coach to suit Laf... he's not worth doing that for.

At some point it's time to get his shit together... this is the top league in the world... there's a lot of money & reputations riding on him. Time to grow up & get after it. Short career choice anyway. Might wanna put some effort in at this point instead of "tuning out" or blaming others.

 

[Ruggs225]

Well this will be his 3rd coach in the NHL right? We'll see if he finally responds to the "right" coach. I mean this is getting into Panarin territory... if he can't play with this guy, or NEEDS to play with that guy to be effective, he's not worth 11.6M

If we have to hand pick our coach to suit Laf... he's not worth doing that for.

At some point it's time to get his shit together... this is the top league in the world... there's a lot of money & reputations riding on him. Time to grow up & get after it. Short career choice anyway. Might wanna put some effort in at this point instead of "tuning out" or blaming others.

I mean he had 1 year with quinn in a truncated no training camp covid year and then two years with a coach who literally had no interest in developing youth, not had the mental capacity to actually teach hockey.

This is not anywhere close to Panarin territory.

 

[LORDE]

I mean he had 1 year with quinn in a truncated no training camp covid year and then two years with a coach who literally had no interest in developing youth, not had the mental capacity to actually teach hockey.

This is not anywhere close to Panarin territory.

Well this is complete hyperbole but whatever excuses people wanna make for him don't matter anymore. They just don't. He's worn out the long leash he started with.

 

[Ruggs225]

Well this is complete hyperbole but whatever excuses people wanna make for him don't matter anymore. They just don't. He's worn out the long leash he started with.

The second part yes, the first part is the truth. He literally said he was not here for
development and kakko once said that they got no feedback when benched so.. yeah he really didnt give a shit about developing them.

 

[Synergy27]

Yes, with Hughes it was never in question WHERE the skill to put up 70-80-90 points was going to come from. The question was whether or not a guy built like a 12 year old could make it translate at the NHL level, whether he could stay healthy, battle through checks, etc while catching up to NHL speed. But from day one you saw the hands, the speed and edge work, the creativity, etc.

With Laf I am saying if he lead the league in PP time and 5v5 time, do you really see someone who is going to be better than a 65 point player? 70? 75, tops? If everything goes right? The guy who got those minutes this year scored 153 points. So let’s say he just got average first unit PP minutes and average top six ES minutes. What’s his ceiling? 65 points? Where did the skill go? What made him a 1OA talent?

I’ve been harping on this for literal years now. I remember in Laf’s rookie season, being super excited to watch the kid play and getting immediately spooked because guys like Di Giuseppe and Gauthier “looked” better. Like when they had the puck, they were moving it up the ice into the opposing team’s end with speed and purpose.

I specifically remember making a post about how, if you had no idea who these players were and you were asked who the 1OA pick was, you’d assume it was Gauthier hands down. Julien Gauthier is a player that I can be convinced has big point scoring upside if he was able to put things together consistently.

Look at some of these other young kids that have recently come into the league. Not even the already stars like Stutzle, Hughes and Zegras. Jack Quinn on Buffalo. Matt Boldy. Wyatt Johnston.

The skill(s) is/are apparent from day one. The path to PPG is easy to see with moderate projectable growth and just comfort. You can physically see it, even if you’re not an expert in what you are watching.

I simply don’t see it with Laf. Perhaps I am an unsophisticated hockey viewer. Perhaps he really is just on a weird arc, or stuck in a mental rut that is severely hindering his progress. I’ve been saying this for three years now and I’ve been right about it so far. I really, really want to be wrong. Like really.

 

[RangersFan1994]

Not playing in the world championships. After his playoffs, Rangers should demand that he goes for more confidence. He seems like a lazy 1st overall pick. Shows his character. Pathetic.

 

[ReddestRum]

Not playing in the world championships. After his playoffs, Rangers should demand that he goes for more confidence. He seems like a lazy 1st overall pick. Shows his character. Pathetic.

Fil and Kakko opting to go just makes me hate Laf even more.

 

[RangersFan1994]

Fil and Kakko opting to go just makes me hate Laf even more.

I totally agree. Since it starts tomorrow I made a thread for world championships.

Lafy relying on his skill. Learns from the no leaders here

 

[mike14]

Not playing in the world championships. After his playoffs, Rangers should demand that he goes for more confidence. He seems like a lazy 1st overall pick. Shows his character. Pathetic.

Working on the theory that
a. Team Canada wanted him, and
b. the Rangers have any sway in who gets selected

 

[RangersFan1994]

Working on the theory that
a. Team Canada wanted him, and
b. the Rangers have any sway in who gets selected

What if Canada did not want him cause he is not that good

 

[mike14]

What if Canada did not want him cause he is not that good

Wouldn't surprise me.
They've got a got a pretty good roster up forward. There's guys that they'd take Laf over, but I certainly don't think they'd be fazed that he didn't put his hand up

 

[Shesterkybomb]

What if Lafreniere wanted to focus this tine on being better for next year instead of going for canada, or maybe he wants to sign a contract before he goes somewhere he might get hurt.

 

[bleedblue94]

I don't blame fans for getting incredibly excited, the franchise has been starved for a player like this for 100 years. We all bought into the hype and thought we were getting our own MacKinnon. I still think there's hope for him to be a 70 point player but he needs to get more serious about his career.

If people saw McKinnon then they did that to themselves. He wasn't sniffing that even predraft.

 

[LORDE]

The second part yes, the first part is the truth. He literally said he was not here for
development and kakko once said that they got no feedback when benched so.. yeah he really didnt give a shit about developing them.

Show were Kakko said that and also Gallant is trying to win games... I'm no GG apologist but if the kids blow... AND THEY DO!

He doesn't win games

If they're not #1 & #2 overall skills AND ON TOP don't wanna put the effort in.

THATS NOT ON HIM

We'll see this year yeah? Another year, another coach and I'll go on record as saying ANOTHER disappointment for the kids, who aren't kids anymore

 

[LORDE]

I’ve been harping on this for literal years now. I remember in Laf’s rookie season, being super excited to watch the kid play and getting immediately spooked because guys like Di Giuseppe and Gauthier “looked” better. Like when they had the puck, they were moving it up the ice into the opposing team’s end with speed and purpose.

I specifically remember making a post about how, if you had no idea who these players were and you were asked who the 1OA pick was, you’d assume it was Gauthier hands down. Julien Gauthier is a player that I can be convinced has big point scoring upside if he was able to put things together consistently.

Look at some of these other young kids that have recently come into the league. Not even the already stars like Stutzle, Hughes and Zegras. Jack Quinn on Buffalo. Matt Boldy. Wyatt Johnston.

The skill(s) is/are apparent from day one. The path to PPG is easy to see with moderate projectable growth and just comfort. You can physically see it, even if you’re not an expert in what you are watching.

I simply don’t see it with Laf. Perhaps I am an unsophisticated hockey viewer. Perhaps he really is just on a weird arc, or stuck in a mental rut that is severely hindering his progress. I’ve been saying this for three years now and I’ve been right about it so far. I really, really want to be wrong. Like really.

f***ing great post

Perfect and is all that needs to be said.

It's evident that Laf is not a top-6

 

[bhamill]

Look at some of these other young kids that have recently come into the league. Not even the already stars like Stutzle, Hughes and Zegras. Jack Quinn on Buffalo. Matt Boldy. Wyatt Johnston.

The skill(s) is/are apparent from day one. The path to PPG is easy to see with moderate projectable growth and just comfort. You can physically see it, even if you’re not an expert in what you are watching.

All really nice players. I’d love any or all of them, on this team. All three came into the league after their D+1 or D+2, so comparing their ”day ones” isnt quite a great measure.
Jack Quinn is the same age/draft year as Laf and scored about the same. In slighty less games with slightly higher ATOI. Especially considering his pp time/pts.
Matt Boldy in his D+4, a year older than Laf scored 37EV points in 81 games. (And quite a few on pp time) About the same as Laf’s D+3. (Minus the pp time) We will have to wait on Laf’s D+4.
Wyatt Johnston in his D+2 scored 34EV points. 7 more with the pp time he received. Again, comparable To Laf’s 31EV points in his D+2 in a few fewer games with a bit less ATOI.
Laf threw 20 more hits this year than the three of them combined. He’s a much more physical player.
These are all just facts, take it as you like. I think all four of them will be fine NHLers. Laf may end up being the lesser scorer of them all, or maybe not. We’ll have to see. But right now they are all young comparable players. It’s not like these guys are massively out performing Laf.
I think there’s a real “flash” bias that goes on. And I get it, but a goal that makes you go “ooooh“ doesn’t count any more than one that looks completely ordinary.

 

[n8]

Working on the theory that
a. Team Canada wanted him, and
b. the Rangers have any sway in who gets selected

a. pretty sad if Canada wanted Michael Carcone over Lafreniere

 

[ReddestRum]

I think there’s a real “flash” bias that goes on. And I get it, but a goal that makes you go “ooooh“ doesn’t count any more than one that looks completely ordinary.

Throwing an ordinary wrister on net and having it go off the glove and in is the same as showing you have hands, edges, and agility to walk by a defender and still use what little room you have to deke in close for a top shelf backhand?

So knowing how to just shoot a puck vs using all your skill flash to give you a better toolset to play the game is the same?

This is 100% legit cope when we're handwaving flashy kid superstars on other teams that can play, produce, and look good doing it like we wouldn't want that on this team while trying to put our lesser talent on equal footing.

Shit man, if Laf played like Zegras we'd all be head over heels enjoying that flash. That's a fact. If you think I'm wrong, check out the GDT of Laf toe-dragging for that backhand goal. He's done it twice in three seasons and people went nuts. Seems to be the only flash move he has, so you don't have to worry much anyway.

 

[bhamill]

Throwing an ordinary wrister on net and having it go off the glove and in is the same as showing you have hands, edges, and agility to walk by a defender and still use what little room you have to deke in close for a top shelf backhand?

So knowing how to just shoot a puck vs using all your skill flash to give you a better toolset to play the game is the same?

This is 100% legit cope when we're handwaving flashy kid superstars on other teams that can play, produce, and look good doing it like we wouldn't want that on this team while trying to put our lesser talent on equal footing.

Shit man, if Laf played like Zegras we'd all be head over heels enjoying that flash. That's a fact. If you think I'm wrong, check out the GDT of Laf toe-dragging for that backhand goal. He's done it twice in three seasons and people went nuts. Seems to be the only flash move he has, so you don't have to worry much anyway.

Sure. I love Zegras as well, and hope he ends up here ( he’s a NYR fan) but you’re proving my point. It’s not cope, it’s cold logic. As a 55 year Ranger fan I learned to live with failure LONG ago. Hahaha. A goal is a goal no matter how you get it to go in. Results are king. 20 fancy flashy goals might be more enjoyable, ARE more enjoyable, but they dont count more than 20 tap Ins. The bottom line is the bottom line. I will say that a flashy goal may psych up the crowd or the bench, so maybe they can be worth more in that way. But at the end of the day, a goal is still a goal.

 

[Ruggs225]

Show were Kakko said that and also Gallant is trying to win games... I'm no GG apologist but if the kids blow... AND THEY DO!

He doesn't win games

If they're not #1 & #2 overall skills AND ON TOP don't wanna put the effort in.

THATS NOT ON HIM

We'll see this year yeah? Another year, another coach and I'll go on record as saying ANOTHER disappointment for the kids, who aren't kids anymore

Kakko said after game 6 last year he received no feedback on why he was scratched. U can google it.


Also if i remember correctly gallant himself didnt even want to reach out to players when he was first hired. He said he will meet them at training camp.

He is a joke of a coach.

But u are right that the kids need to put more effort in. I just think gallant completely f***ed their heads. And once the mind isnt motivated then the body follows.

We shall see. I think the kids are going to take a massive leap this year. Especially if we hire a guy like Brunnette and i think even Knobby would be great for them.

If we hire Laviollette type then the kids will continue to sink bc he is another coach who just relys on vets.

 

[McRanger92]

Well this is complete hyperbole but whatever excuses people wanna make for him don't matter anymore. They just don't. He's worn out the long leash he started with.

Maybe with you. I doubt the team is looking to move him.

@RangerBoy had a good post in the RBT about the Canes dealing with Necas' disappointing season last year. Both parties acknowledged responsibility and he was put in a better position to succeed this year. That's what the Rangers need to do with Lafreniere. It's the best thing for the team and player and hes not a lost cause by any stretch.

Fans can be disappointed in Lafreniere but no one in this thread has given a good reason to trade or move on from him beyond "he's a bust!" Yeah well, he's not. It's weird how bad people want it to be true. There are plenty of like minded individuals on the main boards.

 

[LokiDog]

Sure. I love Zegras as well, and hope he ends up here ( he’s a NYR fan) but you’re proving my point. It’s not cope, it’s cold logic. As a 55 year Ranger fan I learned to live with failure LONG ago. Hahaha. A goal is a goal no matter how you get it to go in. Results are king. 20 fancy flashy goals might be more enjoyable, ARE more enjoyable, but they dont count more than 20 tap Ins. The bottom line is the bottom line. I will say that a flashy goal may psych up the crowd or the bench, so maybe they can be worth more in that way. But at the end of the day, a goal is still a goal.

I don’t think the argument is that being flashy is better. I think the argument is that consistently showing “flash” supports the notion that the player is talented enough to produce more. I don’t care if Laf is the most meat and potatoes, unflashy looking player in the world if he’s getting results.

If I’m a scout and I’m looking at two kids who are 21 and both scored 35 EV points, 0 PP points, neither player on the PK, but one looked a lot like Jimmy Vesey and one looked more like Mats Zuccarello, just in terms of the plays they’re making and how they play the game, I would have a lot more interest in trading for the kid who looked like Zucc and being confident that he’s got a much higher offensive ceiling. Statistically the two kids are identical, but with one I see a guy who plays a vanilla game but gets his 35 points and maybe he can get more, but I’m not seeing anything that stands out and says “we should go after that guy”. With the other I’m seeing 35 points and saying “this kid is 21 and showing a lot of skill, I think he’s a good gamble and we should go after him”.

If they never change than sure, 35 points is 35 points and it doesn’t matter that one looks “plain” and one looks “flashy”. But if I’m trying to make the best guess as to which of the two has a higher likelihood of breaking out and being a potent offensive player, I’m taking the one who is demonstrating skilled plays and looks like there’s “more there”.

I think that’s the crux of people wanting to see “flash”. It’s not that a flashy 35 points count more than an ordinary 35 points. It’s about what do I see that indicates I can see this player doubling that output one day.