Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[LORDE]

He also said Laff needed to put the golf clubs away this summer and focus on training. I don't think Vally would say something like that if it weren't true considering he's employed by MSG.

I hope this is true honestly
Maybe he does grow up & get motivated
I’m done w him personally (won’t come as a shock to most) but that would give me a grain of sand of hope I suppose

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I hope this is true honestly
Maybe he does grow up & get motivated
I’m done w him personally (won’t come as a shock to most) but that would give me a grain of sand of hope I suppose

At this point it's up to Laff on what kind of career he's going to have. He's definitely costing himself money, I don't think he's next deal is going to be anything near where it should be for a player drafted 1OA.

 

[LokiDog]

Kakko played the 76th most EV minutes of any forward in the NHL. Considering there’s 32 teams and 3 forwards per line, that’s 96 top line forwards, not factoring injuries, line shuffling etc. Laf played the 98th most EV minutes of any NHL forward. Kakko was also 149th in total time on ice for any forward in the league, ahead of a lot of much bigger names. Laf was 158th in total minutes. Again, between top two lines there’s 192 forwards minimum. They firmly recorded top six minutes.

Kakko’s production versus minutes is actually more disappointing. The 76th most even strength minutes in the league and outside the top 150 in production. 257th in the league in PP production. Something like 105th in EV production. Laf was lower in every category BUT closer to where he ranked in TOI vs Production. They both need to improve dramatically and a ton of it comes down to skating and commitment off the ice.

 

[bbny]

The expectation is not for them to produce or put up point totals. It's to look like players who are capable of doing so. Lafreniere has that one great goal two years in a row. That's about it. Kakko makes some strong plays on the boards. Neither of them does much to wow you and giving them more minutes/PP time isn't going to change that. They need to work in the offseason and come into next year and look the part like they can be difference makers.

That's fair. They are certainly not in the wow bucket like a Jack Hughes. Far from it. They might be more in the Hischier bucket within the next couple of years though, where they are solid and producing well but not wow-ing anyone. If Drury thinks that's not a good enough ceiling to wait for, then yeah he should cut bait and move on. I'm just skeptical of the core, and don't think a new coach and a couple of support players being swapped out is good enough to win a Cup. It might be more worthwhile to see what the two kids can do with both an opportunity and a chance to build confidence, even if it appears undeserved.

 

[bigdog16]

Laf and Kakko simply aren't good enough to get away with raw skill like they could at younger ages. And to be honest, both of them are milk bags. They both need to destroy the weightroom and get in shape.

I'd bet my life Jack Hughes would lift these guys under the table. They go hard at NTDP. All Laf went hard on was the poutine.

 

[FanCos]

Kakko played the 76th most EV minutes of any forward in the NHL. Considering there’s 32 teams and 3 forwards per line, that’s 96 top line forwards, not factoring injuries, line shuffling etc. Laf played the 98th most EV minutes of any NHL forward. Kakko was also 149th in total time on ice for any forward in the league, ahead of a lot of much bigger names. Laf was 158th in total minutes. Again, between top two lines there’s 192 forwards minimum. They firmly recorded top six minutes.

Kakko’s production versus minutes is actually more disappointing. The 76th most even strength minutes in the league and outside the top 150 in production. 257th in the league in PP production. Something like 105th in EV production. Laf was lower in every category BUT closer to where he ranked in TOI vs Production. They both need to improve dramatically and a ton of it comes down to skating and commitment off the ice.

Not that I don't agree they both have to improve a lot, but quanthockey lists Kakko at the rank #138-143 (forwards only, tied with several others) on even strenght at 13:58 per game, and at ranks #104-118 (F only) on even strength points (tied with Marchand, Bergeron and 12 others).

For Lafreniere the respective numbers are #151 at 13:48 per game, and #127-131 with 35 ES points (tied with Kane and Tarasenko among others, incidentally) .

 

[LokiDog]

Not that I don't agree they both have to improve a lot, but quanthockey lists Kakko at the rank #138-143 (forwards only, tied with several others) on even strenght at 13:58 per game, and at ranks #104-118 (F only) on even strength points (tied with Marchand, Bergeron and 12 others).

For Lafreniere the respective numbers are #151 at 13:48 per game, and #127-131 with 35 ES points (tied with Kane and Tarasenko among others, incidentally) .

That’s per game, not total minutes. They both played a lot more total games than the players you mention them being tied with, thus they played a lot more total minutes than them - and so tied them in points but played more total hockey than them. Like Laf may have averaged 12 less seconds per game, but he played 13 more games, averaging 823 seconds per game (so 10,700 seconds or 178.3 minutes) more), so those 12 less seconds get negated quickly.

 

[bbny]

He also said Laff needed to put the golf clubs away this summer and focus on training. I don't think Vally would say something like that if it weren't true considering he's employed by MSG.

But 100% true

 

[FanCos]

That’s per game, not total minutes. They both played a lot more total games than the players you mention them being tied with, thus they played a lot more total minutes than them - and so tied them in points but played more total hockey than them. Like Laf may have averaged 12 less seconds per game, but he played 13 more games, averaging 823 seconds per game (so 10,700 seconds or 178.3 minutes) more), so those 12 less seconds get negated quickly.

Ah I see my error, comparing an average time to the total production. In that case I believe the points per effective 60 min at even strength is unbiased, as it normalizes the points per total time played.

Here's Rangers' production per 60min at even strength the last regular season. Please discount Hunt, as he has only 3 games played:

EDIT: of all forwards, Kakko ranks #166 in p/es60min, Laf #187, and Kreider 185, so they're all within the same range of mediocrity, if you like.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I wish you guys would forget points, minutes and stats in general. Just look at what your eyes tell you when you watch some guys play. Laf can still be great. He is still a baby at 21. With that said he was not even good this season. It was not about points nor minutes for me. Just me watching him play. He wasted this season. He needs to work like a monster on his skating and fitness this offseason. If he doesn't I will be very disappointed. The team should let him know day 1 they are going to put his fitness to the test. If he is not in great shape day 1 I would consider repercussions. I say that as someone that want to see at least a second line level player from him next season.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

One of the good things about getting kicked out early is that him and Kakko can really have a nice long offseason to workout and improve. Last year they barely had any time to do anything. We got knocked out in Early/Mid june, they probably needed a month+ to recover from the season/playoffs, so basically they only got 4-6 weeks to train before they had to get ready to head back to NY for training camp. This year they will be hard at by the end of the month and have a full summer to really improve.

That's something Hughes had the luxury to do the last 2 years which I definitely feel factored into him taking a huge leap the last 2 seasons.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I think the conversation around development is way too limited when its just a question of minutes. That's like grit being treated as hits.

Neither Kakko nor Lafreniere were done any favors with regards to their entrance in the NHL. I could care less about starting the first two weeks in the top 6 -- if you know (and if you didn't that's a major scouting red flag) that these players weakness is their skating, why aren't you bringing in players with speed to play with them? If you know they've played their whole PP career on the half wall, why are you putting them in the slot or the crease? If you know that they're blocked inevitably at LW, why aren't you playing them at C or RW from the start to make a path for them? If you know they're a meek immigrant KID, why aren't you bringing in a veteran Finn or Quebecoise to help mentor them?

It's not necessarily true that any or all of these things would lead to a different outcome but the fact that none of this happened should be seen as a huge indictment of the management and a deviation from the rest of the NHL.

 

[LokiDog]

I think the conversation around development is way too limited when its just a question of minutes. That's like grit being treated as hits.

Neither Kakko nor Lafreniere were done any favors with regards to their entrance in the NHL. I could care less about starting the first two weeks in the top 6 -- if you know (and if you didn't that's a major scouting red flag) that these players weakness is their skating, why aren't you bringing in players with speed to play with them? If you know they've played their whole PP career on the half wall, why are you putting them in the slot or the crease? If you know that they're blocked inevitably at LW, why aren't you playing them at C or RW from the start to make a path for them? If you know they're a meek immigrant KID, why aren't you bringing in a veteran Finn or Quebecoise to help mentor them?

It's not necessarily true that any or all of these things would lead to a different outcome but the fact that none of this happened should be seen as a huge indictment of the management and a deviation from the rest of the NHL.

I think this is the best take and the most accurate. It isn’t about minutes or opportunity or even counting stats. The organization DEFINITELY did not do the kids any favors in the numerous ways you outlined. My only contrary thought that still “gets to me” is that a true 1/2OA talent should be able to overcome some of this stuff to greater effect than they have… or at least it feels that way. It feels like a true #1 talent would still have flashed either great hands, really slick and intelligent reads, some passes that are elite to execute, a few real snipes… something that’s indicative of the supposed talent that led to a #1 selection, even if they were in less than ideal circumstances in all of the ways that you listed. Like, they are still getting plenty of minutes overall. You would expect the eye test to tell you “ah, there’s the skill” and then you would be a lot more prone to saying “man, if we put this kid in a better situation I definitely feel like that skill would translate into better results”. Instead right now it feels like everyone is saying that maybe if they were put in the perfect situation, the skill would finally manifest. It feels like the skill should be more evident even if the results aren’t there.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I think this is the best take and the most accurate. It isn’t about minutes or opportunity or even counting stats. The organization DEFINITELY did not do the kids any favors in the numerous ways you outlined. My only contrary thought that still “gets to me” is that a true 1/2OA talent should be able to overcome some of this stuff to greater effect than they have… or at least it feels that way. It feels like a true #1 talent would still have flashed either great hands, really slick and intelligent reads, some passes that are elite to execute, a few real snipes… something that’s indicative of the supposed talent that led to a #1 selection, even if they were in less than ideal circumstances in all of the ways that you listed. Like, they are still getting plenty of minutes overall. You would expect the eye test to tell you “ah, there’s the skill” and then you would be a lot more prone to saying “man, if we put this kid in a better situation I definitely feel like that skill would translate into better results”. Instead right now it feels like everyone is saying that maybe if they were put in the perfect situation, the skill would finally manifest. It feels like the skill should be more evident even if the results aren’t there.

Agreed. I do feel Kakko has consistently flashed a lot even in his horrible rookie year, but speaking to laf specifically, hes been underwhelming on his own.

 

[LokiDog]

Agreed. I do feel Kakko has consistently flashed a lot even in his horrible rookie year, but speaking to laf specifically, hes been underwhelming on his own.

I agree. With Kakko it feels like if he was simply an above average skater and a bit more aggressive/assertive with his frame, you could see the path to success. There is a timid, slow Hossa there. With Laf I just see like… Max Talbot? Like there’s just not much there.

 

[Overcast]

I think this is the best take and the most accurate. It isn’t about minutes or opportunity or even counting stats. The organization DEFINITELY did not do the kids any favors in the numerous ways you outlined. My only contrary thought that still “gets to me” is that a true 1/2OA talent should be able to overcome some of this stuff to greater effect than they have… or at least it feels that way. It feels like a true #1 talent would still have flashed either great hands, really slick and intelligent reads, some passes that are elite to execute, a few real snipes… something that’s indicative of the supposed talent that led to a #1 selection, even if they were in less than ideal circumstances in all of the ways that you listed. Like, they are still getting plenty of minutes overall. You would expect the eye test to tell you “ah, there’s the skill” and then you would be a lot more prone to saying “man, if we put this kid in a better situation I definitely feel like that skill would translate into better results”. Instead right now it feels like everyone is saying that maybe if they were put in the perfect situation, the skill would finally manifest. It feels like the skill should be more evident even if the results aren’t there.

Laf has shown some great flashes, same with Kakko who has had some more consistent/often stretches of decent play, but the problem is that 1) those flashes are literally flashes; there's maybe a couple-week stretch of above average 3rd liner play then he plummets back to journeyman 4th liner, and 2) those flashes are few and far between which adds to the overall frustration with him. There's little to no consistency. There needs to be more of everything next season from both players. He absolutely needs to come close to replicating his play from the playoffs a season a season or two ago, whenever it was. I remember a few passing plays by Laf across a handful of games that got me excited that he was starting to "get" it..but it was followed up by nothing. Same with his scoring. There were a handful of instances that made me say "There he is, Laf has arrived" that was also followed by zilch. No consistency, no visible hunger to compete and improve 90% of the time.

For how disappointing Laf/Kakko have been, these guys are still really young. I would rather/try to stay hopeful rather than dejected that they will eventually put more things together as they get older and continue to mature in general.

 

[Overcast]

I will say though, and I know a lot of people hate this about Laf, I like that he stays positive no matter what. Same with Kakko. Everything out of Kakko's mouth is just "I need to show that I can be better, than I am better. I have to put in a lot of work to get there, and I will." Kakko has laid out very clear expectations for himself publicly which I think is great. He knows where he wants to get to and so does the team. I want to hear all of that from Laf yesterday. I feel like a pro athlete needs to have that mindset otherwise you won't stay at the top very long if you're constantly beating yourself up to an unhealthy extent. They can't think like fans who give up after a goal against in the first minute.

That needs to be tempered with focus though, which I think is where he kind of falters. It's awesome he's happy to be in the NHL, he should be, but he has to find it in himself to show that he's more than happy to be there, to the team and the fans.

I also think it's good that the vets do respond well to when Laf is goofy. That to me says that there's a good environment in the room and relationship between the guys, at the very least. So at least it's not this overtly toxic environment that we could point to and say "It's because no one likes playing with each other."

 

[Cheapshot]

Man this is disappointing. Obviously there has to be more to this than style of play right? When he was on Rimouski he was a lock 1OA. He could shoot he could pass he could stick handle. He used his stick in the defensive zone to help him transition to offense quickly. He was good on the power play. Which he’s been the definition of invisible here. Yeah he played a different role on it but do you guys think it’s a lack of confidence or did we just screw this guy up?

 

[Mugless]

I see two guys who can't get from point A to point B fast enough. Their bodies can't catch up to their skills, if that makes any sense. They also hinder Chytil's production because neither one can skate with him.

 

[The Gloaming]

It's not exactly about skill.

Jack Hughes didn't come into the league having that much less skill than he does now.

He had the same hands and passing skills. Same skating.

What is different is in the head. How fast can he execute plays using his skills. How does he keep up with the game, how does he read defenses and exploit the open areas of the ice.

And that you can only train for in actual NHL games. No summer practice will compare.

Summer practice will and can help with skating for players who are not gifted at it naturally. Laf should be glued to a skating coach all summer long.

 

[mas0764]

It's not exactly about skill.

Jack Hughes didn't come into the league having that much less skill than he does now.

He had the same hands and passing skills. Same skating.

What is different is in the head. How fast can he execute plays using his skills. How does he keep up with the game, how does he read defenses and exploit the open areas of the ice.

And that you can only train for in actual NHL games. No summer practice will compare.

Summer practice will and can help with skating for players who are not gifted at it naturally. Laf should be glued to a skating coach all summer long.

This is what I’ve said. Laf’s problem is in part his skating speed and acceleration, which can get better through fitness and training, but even more so his problems are clearly mental. You don’t go from having the skill he displayed in juniors to showing nothing in the NHL.

He’s lost and it’s compressing the rest of his skills. Now that may mean he’s not smart enough to ever figure it out and be an impact player but it also might mean he’s struggling with NHL quickness in terms of reads and decision making and the coaching he’s received hasn’t helped. He will never be Crosby or McDavid cause he doesn’t have those raw instincts but he can still be an 80 point player. He needs instruction (and reps) in my opinion. He needs a system he is comfortable making decisions in.

 

[Daves a mess]

I hope this is true honestly
Maybe he does grow up & get motivated
I’m done w him personally (won’t come as a shock to most) but that would give me a grain of sand of hope I suppose

To be an absolute NO show, in a 7 game series against your crosstown rivals, squarely puts me in the move him category.

I'm tired if seeing him scratch his face during pre and post game interviews.

Can't move KK. Right side is as barren as Kravstovs ovaries.

 

[ElLeetch]

I'd bet my life Jack Hughes would lift these guys under the table. They go hard at NTDP. All Laf went hard on was the poutine.

The Q is a child's league, more so than other CHL leagues. Always has been.

I kind of like how a decade ago we just drafted US and EU players and avoided the CHL.

 

[surlysailor]

It is very dumb. It is very hard and very rare to ruin a player. It is a lazy argument and usually just a narrative to insult the team. It is never logical. Why would any GM want to ruin a player? The better the players do the better the GM does.

It’s not about the gm ruining the players, it’s the coaches. GM don’t have a say in the lineups. Coaches are coaching for this and their next job, which is why they say they’re not there to develop the kids (unless it’s a rebuilding team). GG and Quinn were both leaning on their vets to win. Sure the kid line didn’t have much points in the playoffs but who did? But they did have a great playoff the previous season. Is this lose frustrating? Absolutely but I think sometime patience is needed. If I’m Drury I’m trying to move one of those ntc for a bigger shake up than I am at the easy way out of trading the kids. Move laf, kk won’t wake up Z, Ck, panarin or whomever is not dealt, it just makes them feel more comfortable.

 

[NickyFotiu]

It’s not about the gm ruining the players, it’s the coaches. GM don’t have a say in the lineups. Coaches are coaching for this and their next job, which is why they say they’re not there to develop the kids (unless it’s a rebuilding team). GG and Quinn were both leaning on their vets to win. Sure the kid line didn’t have much points in the playoffs but who did? But they did have a great playoff the previous season. Is this lose frustrating? Absolutely but I think sometime patience is needed. If I’m Drury I’m trying to move one of those ntc for a bigger shake up than I am at the easy way out of trading the kids. Move laf, kk won’t wake up Z, Ck, panarin or whomever is not dealt, it just makes them feel more comfortable.

I understand your point but you are giving the various coaches too much power. People are too wrapped up in points totals and stats in general. Please just forget about points for evaluations for now. Just use your eyes. If Laf (or any player) plays around 15 minutes a game for 80 games that is 1200 minutes. No coach can stop a player from displaying their fitness level, skating ability, shooting ability, etc over a 1200 minute span.

As I always say Laf is still young. He can still get there but he has to develop a Sidney Crosby/Gary Roberts type work ethic to improve multiple skills. He can not just depend on what was good enough in juniors. If Laf had a Sidney Crosby type work ethic this summer you would see a huge jump in his play next season.