Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[LokiDog]

We have one of the worst orgs at developing young talent so we are in the same boat.

Tage Thompson is one example. There are many. Dozens. Scores.

Examples exist. The scores and dozens part is questionable. You can make reaches on some players, but draft pedigree does matter to an extent. A guy drafted 26th or 38th breaking out later is not the same thing as a top 3 pick blowing chunks and then suddenly turning it around. That is more rare. Mika was .5ppg in his D+2. It’s disingenuous to really use him as an example but fine, fair enough. I don’t want to get bogged down focusing on Mika, because he isn’t AS strong of an example as people think Thompson is.

Tage was a very late 1st who was ALWAYS viewed as a high risk/high reward prospect due to his size. He was never considered a sure thing. His wife also went through BONE CANCER starting at the end of his D+1 season and was only cancer free after FOUR YEARS of treatment. What happened after 4 years? Oh, he broke out. Weird.

Tage Thompson continues to be inspired by wife’s brave cancer battle

Rachel remains cancer-free, now four years after she was told she had chondrosarcoma.

www.nhlpa.com

 

[LokiDog]

It’s just not true that Laf shows nothing but Zibanejad, Thompson, McCann, etc showed tons of skill. It’s revisionist history. It’s bias from us watching every second of ice time and wanting more from Laf versus popping in highlight tapes of Tage Thompson at 21 and saying, “Wow, look at that skill!”

Highlight tapes are misleading. You could create equal highlight tapes of Laf, and if you spent your time back in the day watching every Tage Thompson shift waiting for him to do something you would have been underwhelmed with him too.

No, you genuinely could not. And stop using Tage as the example. He is by far the outlier, as very explicitly explained in my last post. Nothing about Tage is normal from his size to his story.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Like because he already comes to camp fat and there’s nothing to do in AZ but eat, or…? Because if pop means 70+ points I think there’s a greater chance of him actually eating corn dogs and onion rings until he bursts.

Lol I think you know what I meant. People were even lower on Haydon a year ago, for many of the same 'reasons' as Lafreniere. He had a stellar year with Arizona and looks like a top 6 center in the league now.

 

[LokiDog]

Lol I think you know what I meant. People were even lower on Haydon a year ago, for many of the same 'reasons' as Lafreniere. He had a stellar year with Arizona and looks like a top 6 center in the league now.

Yes, I’m just poking fun. A low pressure, low risk environment would probably provide his greatest chance to show whether or not he has an NHL game at this point. Interestingly though, Hayton is barely a few months older than Laf and has actually played 40 less NHL games (not counting playoffs)

 

[mas0764]

No, you genuinely could not. And stop using Tage as the example. He is by far the outlier, as very explicitly explained in my last post. Nothing about Tage is normal from his size to his story.

You very explicitly explained incorrectly.

 

[LokiDog]

You very explicitly explained incorrectly.

What part is incorrect? The part where he was a late first viewed as a high risk/high reward player? The part where his wife was diagnosed with cancer at the end of his D+1/start of his D+2? The part where he broke out the season after she was cancer free? I just want to know which thing I said was incorrect since apparently the name of this game is “Loki provides facts and context and Mas provides nothing, but Mas is right”. What’s Laf got going on? He wasn’t viewed as high risk and wasn’t a late first round gamble. He doesn’t have a freakishly large body he had to grow into. He doesn’t have a spouse who was legitimately ill with a life threatening disease. What is similar other than you wanting him to follow Tage’s trajectory as a saving grace? The hardship of him not being able to get his Timbits in NY?

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Why is everyone so obsessed with saying Laf sucks lol

He’s a 21 year old player the Rangers drafted whose strength was playmaking off the rush and they turned him into a 3rd line grinder. Like what did you expect from him?

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

Why is everyone so obsessed with saying Laf sucks lol

He’s a 21 year old player the Rangers drafted whose strength was playmaking off the rush and they turned him into a 3rd line grinder. Like what did you expect from him?

rush...

laffy opens up a bag of potato chips, sticks his faces into the bag, licks, inhales real deeply and lifts his head up and goes, oohhhh what a rush!!!!

 

[mike14]

Why is everyone so obsessed with saying Laf sucks lol

He’s a 21 year old player the Rangers drafted whose strength was playmaking off the rush and they turned him into a 3rd line grinder. Like what did you expect from him?

If his strength was playmaking off the rush, then that really does explain his struggles at the NHL level. He doesn't have the speed to lead the rush so he's either out of position when his playmaking would be useful, or he's losing a battle for the puck.
They didn't 'turn him into' a grinder, it's literally the only thing he can be at the moment due to his lack of foot speed and positioning

 

[TheDirtyH]

I think at this point the only productive conversation is not around whether he has potential but whether he holds more value to the organization as a trade asset or as a roster player.

I continue personally to believe in the upside bc I do see it, but I also lean towards moving him.

 

[ReddestRum]

Why is everyone so obsessed with saying Laf sucks lol

He’s a 21 year old player the Rangers drafted whose strength was playmaking off the rush and they turned him into a 3rd line grinder. Like what did you expect from him?

This fanbase bruh...

The Rangers physically turned a day one slower than expected player into a slog for three seasons straight? Zibby and KAM could skate circles around Laf, but somehow while others on this team put their head down and skate, the Rangers told Laf to go slower and just hit people.

KK is a better Grinder than Laf with his physical play and puck retention along the boards in a forecheck.

Throwing your blubber around and making no difference if you do or not while picking up more PIMs than points in your D+2 as a 1OA doesn't make you a grinder. It makes you expendable.

 

[UnSandvich]

For all the hand-wringing about Laf, he did end up with 39 points, good for 45th in the league among LW's; and 35 ES points, good for 35th. If he shot even his career average, he would've ended up with 20G this season as well. I don't know where exactly else we're gonna find that in the league for the money.

Also, while his skating is a big issue, i don't think it's beyond improvement. Compared to Laf, there are guys (even star players) who look like they're skating in molasses. Like Jason Robertson for instance. If he hits the gym & the power-skating this offseason, and puts in the effort he needs (which is something he was never short on in juniors), and there'll be a lot of people eating crow next season

 

[Zamboner]

People really out here saying The Rangers turned Lafreniere into a grinder, like that's what the Rangers want from their #1 pick and Lafreniere could be lighting it up if only he was allowed to. Absolutely, man. Laf is just following orders from the Big Grinder lobbyists within the organization.

 

[CLW]

I think at this point the only productive conversation is not around whether he has potential but whether he holds more value to the organization as a trade asset or as a roster player.

I continue personally to believe in the upside bc I do see it, but I also lean towards moving him.

I think the ones who lean towards moving him is his camp. Money talks. There's way too much $$$$ to be lost on another 2-3 years stuck behind Panarin and Kreider on a low ball contract that suits the Rangers. A disappointing low ball offer from Drury this summer, then maybe a Chytil like offer ~4.5m in 2-3 years can hardly be entizing, especially watching other young talent around the league thrive and recieve serious money.

Why shouldn't Laf go somewhere else and reinvent himself and get a decent contract sooner rather than later.

 

[CLW]

I honestly believe there IS a lot of cope in here. That's not an insult. Not at all. We're all NYR Fans and have plenty of scars to prove it.

NONE of us wanted this.

NONE

But as Loki (& others point out... including myself) there's nothing there to hang your hat on with him.

Stop bringing up Tage or Zbad et all

Laf is nothing like those players. Nothing.

Can he improve? OF COURSE HE CAN

He can improve on just about everything because he has so little in EVERY aspect of the game.

That IS the crux of the issue.

Sure but this is an indictment of the organization too. 3 years and no development doing it Drury's, Quinn's and Gallant's way?

 

[LORDE]

It’s just not true that Laf shows nothing but Zibanejad, Thompson, McCann, etc showed tons of skill. It’s revisionist history. It’s bias from us watching every second of ice time and wanting more from Laf versus popping in highlight tapes of Tage Thompson at 21 and saying, “Wow, look at that skill!”

Highlight tapes are misleading. You could create equal highlight tapes of Laf, and if you spent your time back in the day watching every Tage Thompson shift waiting for him to do something you would have been underwhelmed with him too.

Because Laf doesn’t have any tools. Tage could skate, had a shot & has size.

If Laf is supposed to be scoring or making plays off the rush I’d say that’s almost his worst attribute. His board play is worse but that’s something that should improve with more muscle & experience.

 

[Synergy27]

How about instead of talking about Zib and Thompson, guys I am sure many of us did not watch closely in their first couple of season, why don’t we talk about Chytil?

There is a camp here that worries that Laf just doesn’t have any plus skills that can be pointed to as a reason why the kid will eventually break out. There is a camp that thinks that that is a bad way to do this analysis, because there are a lot of good players who didn’t show any high end skill that eventually turned into great players. I question the latter, but again can’t claim to have watched the examples in question when they were very young.

But Chytil. The kid has high end speed. He’s got good size. He has good hands in space. He has a plus, if not elite, shot. He sucks at face offs. He still gets bodied a bit. His vision is only ok. He’s injury prone. But I see a whole bunch of positives that outweigh the negatives and I feel pretty confident when talking to people about the Rangers that Fil has what it takes to maybe follow a Zib career arc.

I’ve also been seeing this for several seasons now. I am on the record as wanting him to have replaced Strome before the 21-22 season and NOT included in an Eichel trade. The Rangers agree and they paid him. He’s still inconsistent, but he’s also still just 23.

I can’t make these same statements about Laf. I can only point to his draft position and pray.

See the difference?

 

[mas0764]

Because Laf doesn’t have any tools. Tage could skate, had a shot & has size.

If Laf is supposed to be scoring or making plays off the rush I’d say that’s almost his worst attribute. His board play is worse but that’s something that should improve with more muscle & experience.

Yeah, it’s simply not true that he has no tools.

If you think he doesn’t have any, as opposed to the advancement of his game being held back by certain things he lacks, then we are simply at an impasse.

A pretty silly impasse, since he showed off those NHL level skills at other levels, so it’s kinda obvious what he lacks, but whatever.

 

[mas0764]

What part is incorrect? The part where he was a late first viewed as a high risk/high reward player? The part where his wife was diagnosed with cancer at the end of his D+1/start of his D+2? The part where he broke out the season after she was cancer free? I just want to know which thing I said was incorrect since apparently the name of this game is “Loki provides facts and context and Mas provides nothing, but Mas is right”. What’s Laf got going on? He wasn’t viewed as high risk and wasn’t a late first round gamble. He doesn’t have a freakishly large body he had to grow into. He doesn’t have a spouse who was legitimately ill with a life threatening disease. What is similar other than you wanting him to follow Tage’s trajectory as a saving grace? The hardship of him not being able to get his Timbits in NY?

You are just wrong that Laf has shown less than other top 5-10 picks who took time to develop. You are wrong that he has no skills. All of it is simply false. And I’m not gonna get drawn into a debate with you over each individual skill.

No point in us really going on and on about it anymore.

I want to be clear, there’s no guarantee he gets there. He will absolutely improve over what he is now, because he’s only 21 and he’s already got 40 points in the league, so even if he doesn’t work harder and improve his weaknesses just natural maturation will probably result in a 45-50 point player. If he does improve things like his work ethic, skating, and mental processing of the game he will go above 50, perhaps substantially. Like I said, no guarantee. But other players who have shown similar skills and production have certainly gotten to 70, 80 points, etc.

Why is everyone so obsessed with saying Laf sucks lol

He’s a 21 year old player the Rangers drafted whose strength was playmaking off the rush and they turned him into a 3rd line grinder. Like what did you expect from him?

Agendas.

 

[mas0764]

For all the hand-wringing about Laf, he did end up with 39 points, good for 45th in the league among LW's; and 35 ES points, good for 35th. If he shot even his career average, he would've ended up with 20G this season as well. I don't know where exactly else we're gonna find that in the league for the money.

Also, while his skating is a big issue, i don't think it's beyond improvement. Compared to Laf, there are guys (even star players) who look like they're skating in molasses. Like Jason Robertson for instance. If he hits the gym & the power-skating this offseason, and puts in the effort he needs (which is something he was never short on in juniors), and there'll be a lot of people eating crow next season

He has no skills at all bro, haven’t you heard?

People really out here saying The Rangers turned Lafreniere into a grinder, like that's what the Rangers want from their #1 pick and Lafreniere could be lighting it up if only he was allowed to. Absolutely, man. Laf is just following orders from the Big Grinder lobbyists within the organization.

No one is saying this.

The Rangers provide poor development, instruction and leadership for their kids, it’s true.

 

[McRanger92]

I ask again, what does moving Lafreniere do for this team? He's cheap, young and the team has a vested interest in him succeeding. He had 39 points in a sheltered role. We arent talking about Enver Lisin here. It's time for him to nut up and take ownership of his own improvement, but the Rangers should be supporting that, not trading him away when his value is lowest.

 

[CLW]

There is something rotten in the Ranger org and I refuse to throw sh*t at the kids until that is fixed. There was a shouting match between the GM and the coach in the middle of the series, but that is just one of many symptoms that go back years now.

How can anyone be surprised the players did not look like a team in the series? Most players were ghosts. Nobody can bootstrap themselves in that situation.

 

[mas0764]

I can’t make these same statements about Laf. I can only point to his draft position and pray.

See the difference?

But you can make many of those same statements about Lafreniere. Good size, good hands, a plus shot, a knack for garbage goals.

He can’t or doesn’t always use those things because of poor decision making and lack of speed but they are there.

For all the hand-wringing about Laf, he did end up with 39 points, good for 45th in the league among LW's; and 35 ES points, good for 35th. If he shot even his career average, he would've ended up with 20G this season as well. I don't know where exactly else we're gonna find that in the league for the money.

Also, while his skating is a big issue, i don't think it's beyond improvement. Compared to Laf, there are guys (even star players) who look like they're skating in molasses. Like Jason Robertson for instance. If he hits the gym & the power-skating this offseason, and puts in the effort he needs (which is something he was never short on in juniors), and there'll be a lot of people eating crow next season

Remember how everyone stumped for Kreider by pointing out how his numbers *technically* made him a first line LW?

Well Lafreniere’s *TECHNICALLY* make him a second line LW.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

There's a pretty good chance that Lafrenière will be a better player in his prime than he is now.

At the same time, it's fair to say he won't hit the ceiling he had when he was drafted.

Unless he turns into a 70-point player, fans will call him a bust. But if he turns into a 50-point player, he can still have value for the team. Does he have more potential value on the ice than he would get now in a trade? I think so.

 

[LokiDog]

I’m fine with ending this conversation, but the goalposts did move about 10 times over the course of the last 5 pages…

Again, I never said trade Laf. What I’ve said is, we need to be realistic about what we have. Laf and Kakko were supposed to be elite, franchise defining talents and the success of this iteration of the NYR essentially rested on their success as, if not franchise players, at least all-star level talents. We struck out and now this roster will follow the exact same life cycle as the Lundqvist Rangers who lacked the high end internally developed offensive talent to get over the hump. I’ve said we need to stop deluding ourselves into insisting “there’s still hope” for Laf, not because he can’t grow into a 60 point player and salvage his career, but because a 60 point player won’t do shit for US in terms of finally having a young, home grown, team controlled elite offensive talent. Good for Laf if he figures it out and has a career to match Kreider’s. If you really think he can reach a level like Mika or Tage, personally I think you are legitimately insane, and without him reaching a Tage or Hughes type of level, even if HE has a nice little career for himself, WE are headed for another 10 years of no Cups and frustration, watching a perennial Norris candidate and Vezina candidate waste their careers.

This really isn’t about me hating the kid. I’ve already said I’m not talking about trading the kid. This is about me being beyond frustrated that we FINALLY had two cracks at a TRUE elite offensive talent BEFORE his prime and we didn’t even just get like a low end elite talent. We got Laf and Kakko. I’m just trying to be realistic about what their failures to be 80-100 point talents means for the NYR future. It means we don’t have the pieces or the horses and because of the contracts we gave out - relying on the ELC/bridge years of the kids to bring cheap performance at a high level and augment the expensive vets, we are stuck. It feels like the future is quite bleak when it was so bright only 2 years ago.

The problem isn’t whether the kids can improve. They can. They will. They may even have really solid careers. We don’t need 60 point players. I’m not saying 60 point players are bad but we NEEDED to FINALLY draft a kid who could be a 21 year old point per game player with a 100 point ceiling who we would have from 18-30 years old. We had two cracks at it in the draft. Since we got TWO guys who MAY be 60-65 point solid players, how is our future any different than our last 15 years? Laf and Kakko are basically different versions of Dubi and Callahan. Are we being gifted another lottery pick soon? If we never draft this player, we will forever be signing Panarin’s at age 27 and hoping for a different outcome.