Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[Fitzy]

Remember how everyone stumped for Kreider by pointing out how his numbers *technically* made him a first line LW?

Well Lafreniere’s *TECHNICALLY* make him a second line LW.

I think if Vesey plays on the LW with Chytil and Kakko for the preponderance of this season he hits at least 33-34 points. Those two did most of the ''pulling' on that line

 

[ReddestRum]

I’m fine with ending this conversation, but the goalposts did move about 10 times over the course of the last 5 pages…

Again, I never said trade Laf. What I’ve said is, we need to be realistic about what we have. Laf and Kakko were supposed to be elite, franchise defining talents and the success of this iteration of the NYR essentially rested on their success as, if not franchise players, at least all-star level talents. We struck out and now this roster will follow the exact same life cycle as the Lundqvist Rangers who lacked the high end internally developed offensive talent to get over the hump. I’ve said we need to stop deluding ourselves into insisting “there’s still hope” for Laf, not because he can’t grow into a 60 point player and salvage his career, but because a 60 point player won’t do shit for US in terms of finally having a young, home grown, team controlled elite offensive talent. Good for Laf if he figures it out and has a career to match Kreider’s. If you really think he can reach a level like Mika or Tage, personally I think you are legitimately insane, and without him reaching a Tage or Hughes type of level, even if HE has a nice little career for himself, WE are headed for another 10 years of no Cups and frustration, watching a perennial Norris candidate and Vezina candidate waste their careers.

This really isn’t about me hating the kid. I’ve already said I’m not talking about trading the kid. This is about me being beyond frustrated that we FINALLY had two cracks at a TRUE elite offensive talent BEFORE his prime and we didn’t even just get like a low end elite talent. We got Laf and Kakko. I’m just trying to be realistic about what their failures to be 80-100 point talents means for the NYR future. It means we don’t have the pieces or the horses and because of the contracts we gave out - relying on the ELC/bridge years of the kids to bring cheap performance at a high level and augment the expensive vets, we are stuck. It feels like the future is quite bleak when it was so bright only 2 years ago.

The problem isn’t whether the kids can improve. They can. They will. They may even have really solid careers. We don’t need 60 point players. I’m not saying 60 point players are bad but we NEEDED to FINALLY draft a kid who could be a 21 year old point per game player with a 100 point ceiling who we would have from 18-30 years old. We had two cracks at it in the draft. Since we got TWO guys who MAY be 60-65 point solid players, how is our future any different than our last 15 years? Laf and Kakko are basically different versions of Dubi and Callahan. Are we being gifted another lottery pick soon? If we never draft this player, we will forever be signing Panarin’s at age 27 and hoping for a different outcome.

Great post. It'll fall on deaf ears though and it's pointless to argue with the Cult of Laf. Some of the people here are content to wait until he and the rest of the kids aren't kids anymore, and are into their late 20's in order to show their supposed true colors. The moving goalposts come in the form of cope by the tiring use of advanced stats while other superstars his age have moved beyond those silly ass metrics because they both pass the eye test and put up real, raw numbers.

I need to write a script that will automatically switch 'EV' to 'Bullshit' whenever the text appears on my screen. I've never seen a fanbase make so many excuses for one player and yet he's still the lesser of ALL our kids.

Move him. The only team that would possibly give us a decent return for another young player are the Habs.

 

[EdJovanovski]

The cope is back I see

 

[ReddestRum]

The cope is back I see

In the last 200+ games of Laf's career when did it ever leave?

 

[duhmetreE]

80pts Sam Bennett. That's what I want.

Same for Kakko.

I really want the kids to watch the Bennett-Tkachuk line and realize that's what they need to aspire towards..... not Panarin.

Panarin has already infected Zibs. Don't let it spread further.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Great post. It'll fall on deaf ears though and it's pointless to argue with the Cult of Laf. Some of the people here are content to wait until he and the rest of the kids aren't kids anymore, and are into their late 20's in order to show their supposed true colors. The moving goalposts come in the form of cope by the tiring use of advanced stats while other superstars his age have moved beyond those silly ass metrics because they both pass the eye test and put up real, raw numbers.

I need to write a script that will automatically switch 'EV' to 'Bullshit' whenever the text appears on my screen. I've never seen a fanbase make so many excuses for one player and yet he's still the lesser of ALL our kids.

Move him. The only team that would possibly give us a decent return for another young player are the Habs.

That's the thing though, his analytics/underlying numbers aren't impressive either. I wish they were, then I would be in agreement with the others and much more willing to give him a pass. But there's just nothing there at the moment. could he take a precipitous leap and all of a sudden become close to the guy we thought we were getting? I guess it's possible. The odds of that happening are slim IMO and like Loki has been saying even if he becomes a 55-60 point player eventually how much does that help the Rangers in 2 or 3 years?

 

[LokiDog]

That's the thing though, his analytics/underlying numbers aren't impressive either. I wish they were, then I would be in agreement with the others and much more willing to give him a pass. But there's just nothing there at the moment. could he take a precipitous leap and all of a sudden become close to the guy we thought we were getting? I guess it's possible. The odds of that happening are slim IMO and like Loki has been saying even if he becomes a 55-60 point player eventually how much does that help the Rangers in 2 or 3 years?

Exactly. I’m not saying the kids are finished products - I’m saying their ceilings are obviously lower than what we drafted them to be. If they both develop into REALLY SOLID 60 point players, hell even an odd 70 point season, great… for them. For us, when that time comes in 2, 3, 4 years… we’re in the exact same place. A couple of really good 60 point wingers but no ELITE young talent… which is what they were supposed to be. And it’s not so simple as, oh well, but they can still be good players. That’s fine. But we NEED our own, internally developed young elite forward.

Where are we going to get it? We have a Norris level D and a Vezina level G. Unless we’re going to rebuild and bottom out again, we will always be too good to draft one (see Lundqvist, Henrik era) but not good enough to win the ultimate goal. The kids will turn into good but not great players and replace guys like Kreider as they age out, but we will continue to lack the true franchise defining forward that we need. A long line of Panarins and Gaboriks and Nash’s isn’t the solution. We need our own Hughes, MacKinnon, Matthews, Kane, etc. and this was our chance to get it (twice).

The frustration of having two consecutive top 2 picks and come away with 2 players whose ceiling is Chris Kreider’s peak is maddening. We are treading water. We can barely afford to successfully bridge these kids, let alone make meaningful adjustments to this flawed roster and are handcuffed by NMCs that make it impossible for us to really do anything but stay the course with what we have, which simply isn’t good enough. The kids can have great careers for themselves - I hope they do. But WE as Rangers fans are looking at a nearly identical repeat of the last decade. We drafted 1 and 2 and came away with Dubi & Cally 2.0. I LOVED those guys. But that’s just not good enough and even if Laf becomes a guy who puts up 60 per year and has himself a nice 70 point season once or twice (which, even this feels like a stretch at this stage) how does that help NYR pave a different path this time around with Shesterkin than the exact one we just saw with Lundqvist. If Laf and Kakko had been 2nd round picks this would all be fine. We FINALLY got the chance to draft our own superstar though… and we missed. Badly.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Exactly. I’m not saying the kids are finished products - I’m saying their ceilings are obviously lower than what we drafted them to be. If they both develop into REALLY SOLID 60 point players, hell even an odd 70 point season, great… for them. For us, when that time comes in 2, 3, 4 years… we’re in the exact same place. A couple of really good 60 point wingers but no ELITE young talent… which is what they were supposed to be. And it’s not so simple as, oh well, but they can still be good players. That’s fine. But we NEED our own, internally developed young elite forward.

Where are we going to get it? We have a Norris level D and a Vezina level G. Unless we’re going to rebuild and bottom out again, we will always be too good to draft one (see Lundqvist, Henrik era) but not good enough to win the ultimate goal. The kids will turn into good but not great players and replace guys like Kreider as they age out, but we will continue to lack the true franchise defining forward that we need. A long line of Panarins and Gaboriks and Nash’s isn’t the solution. We need our own Hughes, MacKinnon, Matthews, Kane, etc. and this was our chance to get it (twice).

The frustration of having two consecutive top 2 picks and come away with 2 players whose ceiling is Chris Kreider’s peak is maddening. We are treading water. We can barely afford to successfully bridge these kids, let alone make meaningful adjustments to this flawed roster and are handcuffed by NMCs that make it impossible for us to really do anything but stay the course with what we have, which simply isn’t good enough. The kids can have great careers for themselves - I hope they do. But WE as Rangers fans are looking at a nearly identical repeat of the last decade. We drafted 1 and 2 and came away with Dubi & Cally 2.0. I LOVED those guys. But that’s just not good enough and even if Laf becomes a guy who puts up 60 per year and has himself a nice 70 point season once or twice (which, even this feels like a stretch at this stage) how does that help NYR pave a different path this time around with Shesterkin than the exact one we just saw with Lundqvist. If Laf and Kakko had been 2nd round picks this would all be fine. We FINALLY got the chance to draft our own superstar though… and we missed. Badly.

couldn't have said it any better.

 

[Peltz]

We need our own Hughes, MacKinnon, Matthews, Kane, etc. and this was our chance to get it (twice)

Those are amazing-to-have players, but I don't think you need one to win a cup. Contend for multiple cups like Tampa, Pittsburgh, and Chicago? Sure you need at least one.

But one cup? You can do it without one like St Louis did. I'm sure we all thought that's what we got when we signed Panarin though. He's supposed to be our Kucherov. Instead he's our... Rick Nash in the playoffs again.

Heck... Buch is even over a PPG since being traded. He isn't generational, but definitely could've helped us this year rather than Panarin.

 

[LokiDog]

Those are amazing-to-have players, but I don't think you need one to win a cup. Contend for multiple cups like Tampa, Pittsburgh, and Chicago? Sure you need at least one.

But one cup? You can do it without one like St Louis did. I'm sure we all thought that's what we got when we signed Panarin though. He's supposed to be our Kucherov. Instead he's our... Rick Nash in the playoffs again.

Heck... Buch is even over a PPG since being traded. He isn't generational, but definitely could've helped us this year rather than Panarin.

St. Louis and Boston are like the two outliers in the past 15 years or so, and even they each had certain other factors, like a generational 6’9 Dman and Thomas playing out of his gourd, or St. Louis just having crazy depth and playing such a heavy, hard system where everyone was super bought in. It is possible, as you say, but I don’t want to try and model myself after an outlier. And while, like you said, it’s still possible but the frustration is that we GOT the lottery picks. We HAD the chance to FINALLY add that homegrown elite offensive talent we’ve basically never had… and now it’s sliding into, well maybe they can be good 50-60 point guys one day. That just sucks. It’s devastating for our chances with THIS roster, due to the contracts, etc. but it also just sucks to have two picks who could have finally been that vaunted, only-attainable-through-the-draft type of talent and we just didn’t get it, at all.

 

[Peltz]

St. Louis and Boston are like the two outliers in the past 15 years or so, and even they each had certain other factors, like a generational 6’9 Dman and Thomas playing out of his gourd, or St. Louis just having crazy depth and playing such a heavy, hard system where everyone was super bought in. It is possible, as you say, but I don’t want to try and model myself after an outlier. And while, like you said, it’s still possible but the frustration is that we GOT the lottery picks. We HAD the chance to FINALLY add that homegrown elite offensive talent we’ve basically never had… and now it’s sliding into, well maybe they can be good 50-60 point guys one day. That just sucks. It’s devastating for our chances with THIS roster, due to the contracts, etc. but it also just sucks to have two picks who could have finally been that vaunted, only-attainable-through-the-draft type of talent and we just didn’t get it, at all.

A lot of teams get those picks and end up with non-generational players. We were never guaranteed anything unfortunately.

 

[LokiDog]

A lot of teams get those picks and end up with non-generational players. We were never guaranteed anything unfortunately.

1 and 2?

We’re not talking about generational players. We’re talking about players with a ceiling higher than something between Dubi and Kreider.

Hughes
Dahlin
Hischier
Matthews
McDavid
Ekblad
MacKinnon
Yakupov*
Nugent-Hopkins
Hall
Tavares
Stamkos

Svechnikov
Patrick*
Laine
Eichel
Reinhart
Barkov
Murray*
Landeskog
Seguin
Hedman
Doughty

I mean… Patrick and Murray had their career’s derailed by injuries. Yakupov busted. For the most part 1 and 2 picks over the past 15 years pan out at least as all-star level players.

It feels like the goalposts are about to move again.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

80pts Sam Bennett. That's what I want.

Same for Kakko.

I really want the kids to watch the Bennett-Tkachuk line and realize that's what they need to aspire towards..... not Panarin.

Panarin has already infected Zibs. Don't let it spread further.

verhaeghe-bennett-tkachuk - who wouldn't want that line at this point? when that line is on they're nearly unstoppable.

no worries as there is no way. barring injuries of course, that bread and zibs will be together 5x5.

then again at this point in time is there anybody that can do well with bread 5x5? maybe it would be time to slot him with chytil and X for 50 games and see what happens.

 

[LORDE]

Yeah, it’s simply not true that he has no tools.

If you think he doesn’t have any, as opposed to the advancement of his game being held back by certain things he lacks, then we are simply at an impasse.

A pretty silly impasse, since he showed off those NHL level skills at other levels, so it’s kinda obvious what he lacks, but whatever.

You & I agree on almost 100% of NYR related things (about what they’ve done wrong & right)
So we can disagree on this & be fine. I’m not trying to change your mind. I hope Laf changes mine.

 

[mas0764]

I’m fine with ending this conversation, but the goalposts did move about 10 times over the course of the last 5 pages…

Again, I never said trade Laf. What I’ve said is, we need to be realistic about what we have. Laf and Kakko were supposed to be elite, franchise defining talents and the success of this iteration of the NYR essentially rested on their success as, if not franchise players, at least all-star level talents. We struck out and now this roster will follow the exact same life cycle as the Lundqvist Rangers who lacked the high end internally developed offensive talent to get over the hump. I’ve said we need to stop deluding ourselves into insisting “there’s still hope” for Laf, not because he can’t grow into a 60 point player and salvage his career, but because a 60 point player won’t do shit for US in terms of finally having a young, home grown, team controlled elite offensive talent. Good for Laf if he figures it out and has a career to match Kreider’s. If you really think he can reach a level like Mika or Tage, personally I think you are legitimately insane, and without him reaching a Tage or Hughes type of level, even if HE has a nice little career for himself, WE are headed for another 10 years of no Cups and frustration, watching a perennial Norris candidate and Vezina candidate waste their careers.

This really isn’t about me hating the kid. I’ve already said I’m not talking about trading the kid. This is about me being beyond frustrated that we FINALLY had two cracks at a TRUE elite offensive talent BEFORE his prime and we didn’t even just get like a low end elite talent. We got Laf and Kakko. I’m just trying to be realistic about what their failures to be 80-100 point talents means for the NYR future. It means we don’t have the pieces or the horses and because of the contracts we gave out - relying on the ELC/bridge years of the kids to bring cheap performance at a high level and augment the expensive vets, we are stuck. It feels like the future is quite bleak when it was so bright only 2 years ago.

The problem isn’t whether the kids can improve. They can. They will. They may even have really solid careers. We don’t need 60 point players. I’m not saying 60 point players are bad but we NEEDED to FINALLY draft a kid who could be a 21 year old point per game player with a 100 point ceiling who we would have from 18-30 years old. We had two cracks at it in the draft. Since we got TWO guys who MAY be 60-65 point solid players, how is our future any different than our last 15 years? Laf and Kakko are basically different versions of Dubi and Callahan. Are we being gifted another lottery pick soon? If we never draft this player, we will forever be signing Panarin’s at age 27 and hoping for a different outcome.

Without addressing your whole post, this entire conversation started with me saying “both things can be true, that he can still turn into a 70 point player and be also tremendously disappointing as a 1OA.”

I agree we still need our Jack Hughes cause it’s not gonna be Lafreniere most likely. In fact you won’t find anyone stronger on your side than me as it pertains to us still needing our bonafide 1OA type talent.

The book just isn’t closed on Laf being a very good player yet though, maybe even a star player.

 

[WojtekWolski86]

He needs to pull a Mackinnon and just devote everything this summer. Nutritionist, personal chef, trainer, psychologist, skills coach, skating coach. Just 12 hr days for the next 3 months.

 

[Lone Ranger]

Laf can still turn into a good player. But based on draft position, and our expectations, it's hard not to label him a disappointment.

 

[RangerBoy]

Why the reluctance to play Lafreniere at RW? Unless the player doesn’t want to play RW, why haven’t the Rangers moved him to RW? Lafreniere said coming out of the Rangers zone is the main adjustment in playing RW instead of LW. He would an opportunity in the top 6 on RW. He is stuck behind Panarin and Kreider on the left side.

Adam Oates moved Ovechkin to RW when Oates coached the Caps. We talk about Tkachuk. He was a left winger in Calgary for most of his career(including in junior with Marner on RW) until Sutter moved him to RW on a line with Johnny Hockey and Lindhoim in Tkachuk's last season with the Flames. Sutter said Tkachuk can make the plays on the boards on the right side. Tkachuk has played his best hockey of his NHL career on right wing.

Maybe Gallant doesn’t want to play Lafreniere on RW. Get rid of Gallant. Eat the last two years on Gallant's contract. It is obvious the Rangers want to make a change. Even if the Rangers bring Gallant back for next season, the Rangers will look to fire him at the first stretch of bad play. The Rangers season finished on Monday. They could have told the media on background that Gallant would be back in the last four days. I could see Gallant being stubborn about the left wing/right wing thing.

Blow up the kid line. Lafreniere and Kakko as the top two RW's. Kakko said he wants more opportunities at breakup day.

 

[Daves a mess]

Why the reluctance to play Lafreniere at RW? Unless the player doesn’t want to play RW, why haven’t the Rangers moved him to RW? Lafreniere said coming out of the Rangers zone is the main adjustment in playing RW instead of LW. He would an opportunity in the top 6 on RW. He is stuck behind Panarin and Kreider on the left side.

Adam Oates moved Ovechkin to RW when Oates coached the Caps. We talk about Tkachuk. He was a left winger in Calgary for most of his career(including in junior with Marner on RW) until Sutter moved him to RW on a line with Johnny Hockey and Lindhoim in Tkachuk's last season with the Flames. Sutter said Tkachuk can make the plays on the boards on the right side. Tkachuk has played his best hockey of his NHL career on right wing.

Maybe Gallant doesn’t want to play Lafreniere on RW. Get rid of Gallant. Eat the last two years on Gallant's contract. It is obvious the Rangers want to make a change. Even if the Rangers bring Gallant back for next season, the Rangers will look to fire him at the first stretch of bad play. The Rangers season finished on Monday. They could have told the media on background that Gallant would be back in the last four days. I could see Gallant being stubborn about the left wing/right wing thing.

Blow up the kid line. Lafreniere and Kakko as the top two RW's. Kakko said he wants more opportunities at breakup day.

If only Laf had 1/4 of the actual hockey talent that either Ovie or Tkachuk has.
That said...

Why not give him a heads up that his future as a NYR will rest on his ability to transition to RW and to practice accordingly?



Still think it's 60/40 that gets moved this summer. Who is his agent @RangerBoy ?

 

[ArPanet]

That's the thing though, his analytics/underlying numbers aren't impressive either. I wish they were, then I would be in agreement with the others and much more willing to give him a pass. But there's just nothing there at the moment. could he take a precipitous leap and all of a sudden become close to the guy we thought we were getting? I guess it's possible. The odds of that happening are slim IMO and like Loki has been saying even if he becomes a 55-60 point player eventually how much does that help the Rangers in 2 or 3 years?

doesn't that depend on what his cap hit is?

 

[LoveGoons]

Definitely should keep working on skating/speed and strength.
In all fairness tho, Laf finishes more checks than most of the team.
Laf in his just over 15 mins a game had 141 hits this season, second among forwards to Trocheck (182, 19 mins a game). Trouba in his 21+ mins a game lead with 218.
I don’t see hitting stats for the playoffs but he’s been finishing MOST of his checks.

What I saying that he was the best of his draft class from a skill stand point..but his checking and checks are laughable.. he doesn’t take player out of the play..

 

[duhmetreE]

Why the reluctance to play Lafreniere at RW? Unless the player doesn’t want to play RW, why haven’t the Rangers moved him to RW? Lafreniere said coming out of the Rangers zone is the main adjustment in playing RW instead of LW. He would an opportunity in the top 6 on RW. He is stuck behind Panarin and Kreider on the left side.

Adam Oates moved Ovechkin to RW when Oates coached the Caps. We talk about Tkachuk. He was a left winger in Calgary for most of his career(including in junior with Marner on RW) until Sutter moved him to RW on a line with Johnny Hockey and Lindhoim in Tkachuk's last season with the Flames. Sutter said Tkachuk can make the plays on the boards on the right side. Tkachuk has played his best hockey of his NHL career on right wing.

Maybe Gallant doesn’t want to play Lafreniere on RW. Get rid of Gallant. Eat the last two years on Gallant's contract. It is obvious the Rangers want to make a change. Even if the Rangers bring Gallant back for next season, the Rangers will look to fire him at the first stretch of bad play. The Rangers season finished on Monday. They could have told the media on background that Gallant would be back in the last four days. I could see Gallant being stubborn about the left wing/right wing thing.

Blow up the kid line. Lafreniere and Kakko as the top two RW's. Kakko said he wants more opportunities at breakup day.

Laffy was Gallant's whipping boy. He'd try him at RW for a week or so then as soon as the team stagnated, Laffy was back down. Still stands out to me when he was replaced with RYAN REAVES against Minnesota... one bad period or game and you don't get a second chance...

Never holding the vets, who are making millions, accountable for the issues of the team. It was always the kids as the scapegoats.

 

[duhmetreE]

If only Laf had 1/4 of the actual hockey talent that either Ovie or Tkachuk has.
That said...

Why not give him a heads up that his future as a NYR will rest on his ability to transition to RW and to practice accordingly?



Still think it's 60/40 that gets moved this summer. Who is his agent @RangerBoy ?

Laffy is not getting moved.

He practiced taking pucks on the Right Side in the summer.

The coach never gave him a prolonged look.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

Why the reluctance to play Lafreniere at RW? Unless the player doesn’t want to play RW, why haven’t the Rangers moved him to RW? Lafreniere said coming out of the Rangers zone is the main adjustment in playing RW instead of LW. He would an opportunity in the top 6 on RW. He is stuck behind Panarin and Kreider on the left side.

Adam Oates moved Ovechkin to RW when Oates coached the Caps. We talk about Tkachuk. He was a left winger in Calgary for most of his career(including in junior with Marner on RW) until Sutter moved him to RW on a line with Johnny Hockey and Lindhoim in Tkachuk's last season with the Flames. Sutter said Tkachuk can make the plays on the boards on the right side. Tkachuk has played his best hockey of his NHL career on right wing.

Maybe Gallant doesn’t want to play Lafreniere on RW. Get rid of Gallant. Eat the last two years on Gallant's contract. It is obvious the Rangers want to make a change. Even if the Rangers bring Gallant back for next season, the Rangers will look to fire him at the first stretch of bad play. The Rangers season finished on Monday. They could have told the media on background that Gallant would be back in the last four days. I could see Gallant being stubborn about the left wing/right wing thing.

Blow up the kid line. Lafreniere and Kakko as the top two RW's. Kakko said he wants more opportunities at breakup day.

1000% this. If Laf can learn2skate, I really think his skillset is much more conducive to RW than LW anyway.

• Good at handling the puck on the backhand.
• Good at the inside/outside move on that side of the ice due to quick hands
• Ability to one-time pucks from there
• Ability to see and access the whole ice surface (as a playmaker) from that side of the ice
• Ability to utilize the triple threat position as he reads the play to keep his options open while he makes an offensive read
• Better angles for shooting, especially off the rush...you know...once he learns2skate

Team needs to just lean into it and do it already. This is a guy who's playstyle was compared to Patrick Kane earlier in his career a lot of which is based on his silky mitts...put him on RW and let him get the most out of it rather than LW where so much is predicated on beating D wide which he clearly can't do (and probably still won't be able to do consistently even after he learns2skate...at RW he just needs to be able to go fast enough to be able to dangle someone and have not them be able to catch part of his body with a hit before he's past them.

 

[CLW]

Laffy is not getting moved.

He practiced taking pucks on the Right Side in the summer.

The coach never gave him a prolonged look.

Last I heard Laffy himself didn't like the right side.

I'm not saying they should move him, but I can 100% see that his camp want him elsewhere. If nothing changes ie if Gallant and one of Panarin/Kreider arent moved then Laffy is eventually gone imo. Management can start to play rfa games of course, but that doesn't fix anything.