Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[duhmetreE]

This franchise is cursed.

A curse is an excuse for when you have many incompetent and/or unmerited people in important positions.

 

[LokiDog]

We know, you don't like him.

Aside from the last sentence calling him unremarkable, there isn’t a single opinion or negative word about him in that post. Just facts. Which only bother people who need those facts to not be the facts about Laf so that they can cling to the fantasy of him ever being a 80 point player in this league.

 

[Ail]

I try to not go off the deep end when it comes to young player development, but the term development implies something occurs to justify the use of the word when talking about them. At this point I am OK with saying Laff sucks a big one and the onus is on him to make me eat crow. Shest developed, KAM developed, Fox developed, Chytil developed, Lindgren developed, even Schneider developed somewhat. All of these players are playing at or above expectations. Kakko is meh, but Laff is making him look developed comparatively. The bacteria in snot from a freshly blown nose has more development than Laff.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I beg you donks to research who is filling these roles on the teams you wish we would emulate.

What team do i want to emulate?
2nd thing, are you happy with the development of Andersson, Kravtsov, Kakko and Lafreniere? Are you comfortable putting Othmann and Sykora into this organization and expecting them to become what they should be? The problem isn't that Lafreniere has been underwhelming, its that every young forward we bring into the roster is.

 

[Good Intentions]

Lafrenière jerseys will be 40% off alongside the Strome bin by August.

I can’t stress how much he sucks. It’s broken and done, have seen more than enough to know that there is nothing there. I do not want to see his goofy ass red head goatee again.

 

[Synergy27]

It’s a misleading question cause the purpose of putting Laf and/or Kakko on PP1 or giving them higher in the lineup minutes isn’t to (a) instantly make them better, (b) win this very year, necessarily, or (c) ever make them better than a player who very recently was one of the very best players in the game in 100+ point pace Artemi Panarin.

The purpose of doing it is because the team isn’t good enough right now nor has it ever been since this rebuild was started. Yet we were promised a decade of being an elite contender via building through the draft, not importing mercenaries which has never worked as the backbone of a Cup winner. The purpose of putting the kids, undeservedly, high in the lineup is to kick start them to whatever they ARE capable of developing into, which we still have remote hope is 80 point caliber players. And if they aren’t capable to find it out ASAP so we can go get young kids who are capable of it.

This season just like last season is irrelevant to me. The team overachieved in getting to the conference finals after facing two backup goalies and going to 7 games each time. It does not have enough talent to win 4 straight series’ against the league’s elite.

So I don’t really care if putting Laf on PP1 will make him better than Panarin or not. We need to turn him into a functional high end player or we’re f***ed. Which we probably are anyway at this point because the team has ruined four top 10 draft picks.

The problem is that, in order to do this, you need to deprioritize your established, high paid, all star caliber players. Mika was a top draft pick himself. What kind of message does it send if you give a kid his ice time/role? And for what, a 10% chance that the kid in question becomes as good as Mika is now? That’s not how sports work.

The lottery distorted everything. Most (all?) teams that draft a Lafreniere don’t have a Panarin (let alone a Kreider) on the roster already. The lottery wins, in addition to the positions played by the consensus top picks, created an untenable roster situation that was never going to create the optimized machine that we all hoped it would.

I don’t know what the path out is. You can’t trade these kids for pennies on the dollar to bolster the roster to win now. You can’t NOT play superstar players that have earned it in the hopes that these underperforming kids somehow become BETTER players than the all stars that are blocking them.

 

[Good Intentions]

i am 100% positive 13 will never work out as anything more than a replacement player.

you can do as many future iterations of “he had a great offseason” or whatever f bs cycle you want.

he doesn’t have any skill beyond a spare part. he’s a weirdo. he lacks any of the personality traits i would want in a leader player. so to be clear, not only does he have no upper skill to speak with, he’s also thoroughly unlikeable as a goofy fool.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

i am 100% positive 13 will never work out as anything more than a replacement player.

you can do as many future iterations of “he had a great offseason” or whatever f bs cycle you want.

he doesn’t have any skill beyond a spare part. he’s a weirdo. he lacks any of the personality traits i would want in a leader player. so to be clear, not only does he have no upper skill to speak with, he’s also thoroughly unlikeable as a goofy fool.

What an embarrassing this to say. You seem to lack some traits as well.

 

[irishlaxburger2]

The big picture with the kids is that it’s incredibly rare to win Stanley Cups without considerable offensive production from home-grown talent on low cost contracts. This franchise has constantly tried to win via free agency and trades, and it has never, ever worked in the Salary Cap era. Realistically, the only way to win a Cup via trades and free agency is to be near perfect at it because the margin for error is absurdly slim due to the most restrictive salary cap in professional sports.

This is why everyone still laments the Buchnevich trade, and the poor asset management around letting Motte go, or Goodrow’s deal, or Trouba underperforming. It’s why everyone loses their minds on Gallant when the Rangers go on a losing skid, or seemingly get out-coached in a playoff series, or don’t seem to have any structure in the offensive zone. It’s why if Fox or Shesterkin actually don’t play a picture perfect game, people wonder what’s wrong with them. This organization has created these expectations by trying to win in a manner that comes with a razor’s edge. What can actually give us some level of margin for error, you may ask? Developing the kids.

And frankly, even though this is a thread about Lafreniere, I’d say all the exact same things about Kakko. And I’d be okay if we only decided to give opportunity to one of them because there’s just not enough room to do it with both and still keep our playoff standing. But it has to happen with at least one of them. Because our previous gameplan of developing them flat out hasn’t worked. We need to try to do something different. We need to do what other teams who have won Cups with high offensive draft picks have done.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Some of these takes are just hilarious. There’s only one poster that is criticizing Laf trying to use facts, the rest of you sound like a bunch of WFAN callers calling Mike Francesca after the Yankees lost 3-2 following a 10 game winning streak. Take it easy, let the kid develop.

 

[bbny]

What is Lafreniere’s expected annual production throughout the bulk of his career moving forward, along with percentages of likelihood? Pre-draft it was pretty much 90 pts 95%, quite nearly a lock for a high end elite player. We’re in the <5% zone here, just our luck. Rough percentages moving forward?

40 pts 30%
50 pts 25%
60 pts 25%
70 pts 10%
80 pts 5%
90 pts <5%

Too high? Too low? I think it’s reasonable. I think he can be a decent player, but this isn’t something you cross your fingers on while you watch the primes of our star players pass either.

 

[ReddestRum]

What an embarrassing this to say. You seem to lack some traits as well.

Lol. I wouldn't have said it quite exactly like that, but there have been instances where Laf has been caught on camera goofing around, especially on the bench, during some close games. I totally understand that it's okay to have fun, but goofing around in games you're not winning, why you yourself are struggling to put points on the board, probably isn't the best look for you. I guarantee you it's probably one of the reasons he got scratched.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

One of the overlooked bits of Laf’s EV production debate is that while he’s 6th in EV scoring and 5th in EV TOI among forwards, he’s also third in EV goals against among forwards. The only forwards who have been on for more EV goals against are Panarin and Trochek. His on ice EV goal differential is 9th among forwards on the team at +1.

Guys like Trent Frederic, Brandon Tanev, Morgan Geekie, Tomas Tatar, Jake Debrusk, Daniel Sprong are +16 or better 5v5 goal differential. Again, no one is calling for any of these players to be top line players based on these random stats.

Oh, he’s keeping track with Kreider. Let’s examine that a bit closer. Laf’s played 43 games - Kreider 42. Laf plays 13:48 EV, Kreider plays 13:31. Kreider is stapled to Zib and plays against tough matchups and top lines. Laf plays against whatever the opponent randomly throws out against his line. Laf has 17 EV points, Kreider has 18. Laf’s been on the ice for 27 EV goals for, Kreider’s been on for 32. Laf’s been on the ice for 26 EV goals against, Kreider’s been on for 20. Laf’s 5v5 goal diff is +1, Kreider’s is +12. Against way better competition.

Laf’s 5v5 production while getting plenty of time (5th most) is 5 goals, 5 primary assists, 7 secondary assists (and 1 PP secondary assist). You know how many Rangers forwards have more secondary assists? One guy, named Panarin.

Laf just is extraordinarily unremarkable.

At this point if you told me that Laff could have a Kreider like career, I’d sign on the dotted line instantly

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

What is Lafreniere’s expected annual production throughout the bulk of his career moving forward, along with percentages of likelihood? Pre-draft it was pretty much 90 pts 95%, quite nearly a lock for a high end elite player. We’re in the <5% zone here, just our luck. Rough percentages moving forward?

40 pts 30%
50 pts 25%
60 pts 25%
70 pts 10%
80 pts 5%
90 pts <5%

Too high? Too low? I think it’s reasonable. I think he can be a decent player, but this isn’t something you cross your fingers on while you watch the primes of our star players pass either.

It’s not luck at this point. It’s incompetence .

 

[bhamill]

Make sure to tuck in Lafreniere's ES points at night while you're gone; oh they also like a bedtime story

And when he turns it around here or elsewhere Im sure youll claim you saw it all along. But I doubt very much youll ever own up to the ridiculous tire-pumping of a mediocre talent at best today when five years from now we have whatever we have.

Ummm. I’m not going anywhere, I’m just not going to logically engage you while you have your meltdown over this. Also. I pumped no one’s tires… how many times do I have to explicitly say “he’s not playing well”? Well here you go again: he’s not playing well. Hahaha. And all I’ve said all along is he most likely will turn into a cornerstone. Yup, If I’m right I’ll say so. If I’m wrong in the end, I’ll say so. I don’t get your weird emotional investment in this kid being a bust, but you do you, I’m not going to try to convince you otherwise anymore. Have at it! Enjoy!

 

[bhamill]

One of the overlooked bits of Laf’s EV production debate is that while he’s 6th in EV scoring and 5th in EV TOI among forwards, he’s also third in EV goals against among forwards. The only forwards who have been on for more EV goals against are Panarin and Trochek. His on ice EV goal differential is 9th among forwards on the team at +1.

Guys like Trent Frederic, Brandon Tanev, Morgan Geekie, Tomas Tatar, Jake Debrusk, Daniel Sprong are +16 or better 5v5 goal differential. Again, no one is calling for any of these players to be top line players based on these random stats.

Oh, he’s keeping track with Kreider. Let’s examine that a bit closer. Laf’s played 43 games - Kreider 42. Laf plays 13:48 EV, Kreider plays 13:31. Kreider is stapled to Zib and plays against tough matchups and top lines. Laf plays against whatever the opponent randomly throws out against his line. Laf has 17 EV points, Kreider has 18. Laf’s been on the ice for 27 EV goals for, Kreider’s been on for 32. Laf’s been on the ice for 26 EV goals against, Kreider’s been on for 20. Laf’s 5v5 goal diff is +1, Kreider’s is +12. Against way better competition.

Laf’s 5v5 production while getting plenty of time (5th most) is 5 goals, 5 primary assists, 7 secondary assists (and 1 PP secondary assist). You know how many Rangers forwards have more secondary assists? One guy, named Panarin.

Laf just is extraordinarily unremarkable.

I think the thing you’re missing, at least in what I’m on about is I’m not saying he DESERVES to be on the top line or DESERVES PP1 time. I’m saying his stats aren’t indicative of being an awful bust, and that if we want to him to develop on a “normal” 1OA arc we have to give him “normal” 1OA treatment: top line minutes and PP1 time. Buy the ticket, take the ride. Whining about his lack of development while we don’t make the investment to actually develop him is frankly irrational. We have to decide WHICH path we want, the less top line and PP time he gets, the longer his development will take. It’s really that simple.
Honestly I’m done talking to the brick wall about it, but you are actually a reasonable dude so I figured I’d chime in logically one last time. Hopefully I have the self control to not get caught up again, but if I get on here drunk… hahaha.
have a good one, bud.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I forget which person said it but they were spot on, put Stutzle or Zegras on this team and give them the same opportunities that Laff gets and they’d be what they were drafted to be. At this point, it’s the player.

 

[LORDE]

Again... what are we developing with him? What aspects of this kid's game are we trying to develop?

His skating?
Shot?
Vision?
Passing?
Hitting?
Board battles?

What?

I don't see anything worth making the effort to develop

At best, he'll top out at mediocre at any or all of these.

 

[AlaBlueShirt]

His skating?
Shot?
Vision?
Passing?
Hitting?
Board battles?

What?

I don't see anything worth making the effort to develop

At best, he'll top out at mediocre at any or all of these.

He needs to start with the skating in order to get better at any of the options you listed.
Right now I see him topping out at buchnevich-tier player. Im just mad that these young players are given the learning curve of a defender.

 

[haohmaru]

Again... what are we developing with him? What aspects of this kid's game are we trying to develop?

His skating?
Shot?
Vision?
Passing?
Hitting?
Board battles?

What?

I don't see anything worth making the effort to develop

At best, he'll top out at mediocre at any or all of these.

He needs to develop between the ears most of all and failing to have success on the first line and the PP isn't going to make any of that any better

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Again... what are we developing with him? What aspects of this kid's game are we trying to develop?

His skating?
Shot?
Vision?
Passing?
Hitting?
Board battles?

What?

I don't see anything worth making the effort to develop

At best, he'll top out at mediocre at any or all of these.

I just want to see something. The occasional burst, an oh wow moment like that goal against Detroit last year. Anything to give me hope but it’s just not there at the moment. I’ve never seen a player look so disinterested in trying something. Chytil wants the puck. Kakko isn’t afraid to dangle at the blue line, Krav tries the Krav once a game. Where is Laffy desire to do this stuff?

 

[bhamill]

I forget which person said it but they were spot on, put Stutzle or Zegras on this team and give them the same opportunities that Laff gets and they’d be what they were drafted to be. At this point, it’s the player.

It’s possible, but based on what? How is that something that is knowable? What is it logically based on? I’m asking seriously, not sarcastically.

 

[dangsLITE]

I feel like had he been given these same opportunities on the top line/PP1 last year, he would have taken better advantage. He has regressed in terms of fitness (and confidence) since IMO. He showed better instincts and more clutch play with his 8 GWG his first two seasons. Not seeing much of (or any of) that this year so far.

I really think Vally's comments in that podcast from a few weeks ago are so spot on to what is happening with him.

 

[LORDE]

We know, you don't like him.

That's one way to say that his posts are backed up w facts and stats and you don't like that because it ruins you're view on our #1 overall bust

 

[irishlaxburger2]

He needs to develop between the ears most of all and failing to have success on the first line and the PP isn't going to make any of that any better

His one discernible “elite” level attribute coming into the league was his hockey sense, so without any confidence that trait is completely neutered. So whatever they can do to build his confidence first and foremost needs to happen. From there, you can dive deeper into individual skill building (which is likely more of an off-season exercise anyway).

The way he was lauded coming out of junior was he was basically the offensive version of Adam Fox. Not particularly big, or fast, or strong. No elite physical traits or skills. He was just really solid at everything, and completely out-thought everyone else on the ice. So whatever you can do to get his hockey sense back to where it was previously needs to happen. That’s why I’ve been advocating for getting him more opportunities to have the puck on his stick with time and space. PP1 (and not at the top of the crease) is likely where he can start developing that.