I think Dach will be a better offensive player than Suzuki in 2 year’s time.
Confirmed with Link: Alexander Romanov & Pick #98 Traded to NY Islanders for Pick #13 & Flip It + Pick #66 to Chicago for Kirby Dach
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DAChampion
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- May 28, 2011
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Didn't Tampa Bay have Stankos and Sergachev?
Even *if* Chicago get Bedard, then what?
For the past 7 years straight, it has been the OPPOSITE.
Pittsburgh 2016 and 2017,
Malkin and Murray 8 years apart
Crosby and Guentzel 8 years apart
Washington 2018,
Ovechkin and Kuznetsov 6 years apart
St. Louis 2019,
Bouwmeester and Parayko 9 years apart
Bouwmeester and O'Reilly 7 years apart
Tampa Bay 2020 and 2021,
McDonagh and Sergachev 9 years apart
Stamkos and Point 6 years apart
Colorado 2022,
Kadri and Makar 8 years apart
Landeskog and Makar 6 years apart
Landeskog and Byram 8 years apart
Since this is a Habs forum, I will point out some examples from the past, just for extra content:Beliveau and Dryden, 15 years apart
Maurice and Henri Richard, 15 years apart
Cournoyer and Shutt, 9 years apart
Lemaire and Gainey, 8 years apart
I know people can find a reason to dismiss the old Habs, but the last 7 years should be enough to disprove the statement that there has NEVER been a Cup champion with core players more than 5 years apart.
Perhaps if we could limit the core players to one per team, it would be sort of right.
Exactly. Bedard and nothing else is a last place team. So then they have to find more Dachs, Hagels and Debrincats. LOL.
Andrei79
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- Jan 25, 2013
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Why would you say something that's so easily disproven ? This isn't true of the team you cheer for. It's not even true for Chicago either.
Mrb1p
PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
Sergachev isn't a core player. Stamkos, Kucherov, and Hedman are.
At the very worst it stops at Point, but after three players I think youre stretching it.
a central and often foundational part usually distinct from the enveloping part by a difference in nature
Guentzle isn't a core player. Neither is f***ing Matt Murray lol.
Kuznetsov is a good one, Ovechkin isn't a good example. (Neither is Crosby by the way.) How often is a player the best player on his cup winning team 12 years after being drafted ?
Bouwmeester and Parayko are not core players. Oreilly, Tarasenko and Pietrangelo were the core players... Guess what? Three years.
Makar, Rantanen, Mackinnon...
Richard wasn't a core player at that time. Beliveau stayed great for a long time and has arguably the 3rd greatest longevity of all-time.
Again, context matters.
A fully healthy McDavid brought his team to 2nd in his division in his second season.
A fully healthy Crosby brought his team to 2nd in the east in his second season.
The point of trading away Debrincat and Hagel and Dach was to get value too. They got Korchinski, Nazar, , Ludwinski, Raddysh (a top 9 player) and 2 other first round picks in 2023-2024.
I think they got shit value on Debrincat, to be fair, but I understand why they made the move.
Korchinski, Nazar, Raddysh and the added spots won to early trades of Dach, Hagel and Debrincat will all provide more value to the team in 2024-2025 than Dach, Hagel and Debrincat and a low top 10 pick/mid teens.
Mrb1p
PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
Easily ? I guess if you ignore the basic definition of words you can use the 9th best player on a team and say he is a "core" player.
The simple fact is that core players are of a certain age, its not a hard concept to grasp. Theres always outliers like Ovechkin and Beliveau, but do we really have to go through this ? Using the 1% (If that.) to prove a point.
donghabs98
Moderator
Asset management was truly not their thing. A lot of good pieces were traded away and questionable moves were made post 2015.
Colorado does not win without 87 point Kadri.
But your bigger flaw is that if you exclude guys like Sergachev and Bouwmeester and Guentzel and even maybe Point (ridiculous) or Rocket Richard when he was still an all-Star and still 1.0 ppg, then the ages of Hagel and DeBrincat don't matter!! As complementary pîeces, they are allowed in your schema to be more than 5 years removed from the core. By the way, Hagel is only five years removed if the core comes from the 2023 draft and later.
It is fair to discuss and evaluate the Chicago trades on a hockey basis, but please drop the idea that they needed to be traded for age reasons.
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Well then, a core player argument is not relevant to Hagel or Dach nor even DeBrincat. None of them are Toews, Kane or Keith level players., and you only want to count 3.
McDavid in 2016-17 still had Eberle and Nugent-Hopkins as slightly older players to support him.
Crosby in 2006-07 still had Mark Recchi and Sergei Gonchar scoring almost 70 points each, and Ryan Whitney 59.
Chicago traded DeBrincat and Hagel and Dach and are losing Toews and Kane. Bedard will be totally alone, the secondary players are missing. Bedard will not be able to do what the other two did.
The whole core player argument is irrelevant. You don't win without the right players surrounding the core. If you could Toronto, who has 4 core players, (5 when they had Kadri) would have multiple ups by now. Dach and DeBrincat are young enough to contribute for a several seasons after Chicago is relevant again.
@Mrb1p did't even consider Kadri core, despite the fact that Colorado won with him scoring 87 in 71, and never won before despite having their supposed full core. They also really miss Kadri this year while being a bubble team (yes, there are injuries, but his presence would have made up for some of that, no?).
The Great Weal
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I have no clue why the Isles didn't make the trade for Dach themselves. Romanov is a meh player. HuGo need to make another type of trade for a RHD because I'm not too sold on Mailloux/Barron for the future.
Andrei79
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- Jan 25, 2013
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Hall of famer Hossa probably wasn't core according to bright bulb. Sharp and Hossa were probably the 9th best guys. Keith too. Heck, add in Zetterberg, best PO scoring forward Getzlaf, Brindamour, Justin Williams... and Chara. Basically mrb1p slewing mrb1p nonsense as per usual. Taking what's quite literally common place and calling it an outlier.
LaP
Registered User
2011 Boston,
Thomas 11 years older than Bergeron
Thomas 12 years older than Krejci
Chara 8 years older than Bergeron
Chara 9 years older than Krejci
2012 and 2014 Los Angeles,
Williams 8 years older than Doughty
Gaborik 8 years older than Doughty (2014 only)
2010 and 2013 and 2015 Chicago,
Hossa 10 years older than Kane
Hossa 9 years older than Toews
Keith 6 years older than Kane
Hossa had his number retired by Chicago. He was CORE!!So now we are at 13 years in a row disproving the original statement.
salbutera
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- Sep 10, 2019
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Dach isn’t a Lou type player like Horvat, and Romanov is a prototypical Lamariello Dman
Mrb1p
PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
Hagel, Dach and Debrincat aren't core players, exactly. You don't start a rebuild with these pieces. (I do believe that Dach had that potential though, seems as if I was slightly wrong but still a good player.)
I don't want to count three only. A core could be one (Price.), two(McDrai), three(Crosby/Malkin/Letang), four (Kane/Toews/Keith/Hossa (Hossa is an example of a guy 5++, but he wasn't built on, he was added later, which is a pretty big distinction IMO.))
A core piece is a defining aspect of your roster. Price is defining, McDavid is defining, Kane is defining, Kucherov is defining, Makar... Were starting to trend towards non-core player with the Toews, Backstrom, Letang and hard labels are impossible to set.
The point is that players peak at a certain age. How long will Debrincat be good ? He is 25, when can we expect his goalscoring to taper off ? 28? 29? 30? By the time the 2023 and 2022 crop for the Hawks pan out, he will be 28? Again, I think the Hawks rushed things a bit, they didn't have to settle for Ottawas offer, but I understand why they moved him. The goal is to win a cup in the end, you want to be good enough for it.
And you don't win with the right core, and said core is much harder to obtain than surrounding players. The Habs have tried that for a decade with Price, didn't work.
Kadri missed four games and that didn't stop them. Of course removing a whole ass 2nd line center isn't going to be unimpactful on a roster.
Would the Avs lose the cup if they had... Bo Horvat, Matthew Barzal or whoever fringe 1st line/2nd line center you want to plug ? Probably not.
How gracious of you to insult me because I used the example of Maurice Richard being 9th in scoring on the team during his last cup win.
All those guys are elite players. Debrincat and Dach are not. Well, except for Sharp and Williams who are not core. Believe it or not, the Hawks didn't trade away 24 years old Getzlaf, Brindamour, Zetterberg, Keith, Chara, or Hossa. They traded away a 5'6 top 6 forward who that is currently 83rd overall in scoring.
During the cup runs ? I believe McDonagh was, or even Cernak, but even so, it is beside the point, a 2nd best D isn't a core player unless you have a Pronger/Niedermeyer kind of set up to your roster. Sergachev isn't a defining aspect of the Tampa rosters.
One of the defining aspects was the depth of the defense though, which complicates the "core" argument a little bit.
Mrb1p
PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
Boston is a good one. Thomas and Chara with Bergeron and Krejci.
The goal is not to look for the exception, the goal is to look for the rule.
LAs core was Kopitar, Carter, Quick, Doughty.
Also notice how all these older players were acquired after the drafting of the younger player (or vice-versa, if you want to include a core player that was younger, Im sure that exception exists too. Off the top of my head, maybe Getzlaf, but Im unsure if I would label him as a core player in 07.)
Really, for an easier understanding we can drop the word core and just replace it with "players good enough to lead a team to a championship". Top players, top X at their position, the kind of player that could garner Conn Smythe votes on a non-cinderella run (As in not scoring 27 Justin Williams OT goals.)
Skip Bayless
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- Aug 28, 2014
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He needs to shoot more. But Dach is a more dynamic playmaker.
SlafySZN
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- May 21, 2022
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He does shoot more already than at the start of the year, that’s good.
Pickles
Registered User
This trade was a steal. I can see Dach being one of the core pieces of this team going forward. I was never impressed with Romanov to be honest. He's a top 4 one dimensional defensive defenceman. We have better coming up through the farm system.
Especially now at 8 years of 8.5 AAV. If Horvat repeats this season, maybe he's worth it. But he'd have to do it multiple times.
I think Dach can be as good as Horvat honestly. Maybe not in every regard, I don't know who's better at faceoffs really, Crosby, Bergeron and a handful of others challenge at best. But either way, that's a hefty contract for a team that needs multiple pieces before they can consider winning. Romaov at 2.5 is ok if he contributes more. But I'd rather have Dach for 3.3 or whatever he's on.
Romanov is really meh thus far and that really is the bottom line. They would have been better off with Nazar frankly or whomever they drafted with that pick. Even with his injury. But I suspect they would have taken Ostlund, and would have no issue moving Raty then. I think Ostlund was still on the board. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Romanov just isn't as good as Dach. And now Horvat has to carry this team basically. Maybe Whalstrom can contribute more eventually, they really need wingers too and Dobson I think sitll needs improvement.
I think that's probably the issue then. Lou...... it's just not the early aughts anymore. This style of play seems to only limit how far the team can go, especially without better wingers. Yea you need a guy like Romanov either way, no doubt. But then you usually don't need to give up what they did to get one. Which I guess is the real issue, how Lou prioritizes pieces in 2023.
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