Confirmed with Link: Alexander Romanov & Pick #98 Traded to NY Islanders for Pick #13 & Flip It + Pick #66 to Chicago for Kirby Dach

[Skip Bayless]

He does shoot more already than at the start of the year, that’s good.

We need more.

 

[Rob Sense]

There has never been a stanley cup champion team with core players aged more than 5 years apart.

That would require some proof. Just from memory the 70s Habs team had a core of younger players and older players. Please enlighten us with facts and what is you definition of core??? top 2 players?

Sergachev isn't a core player. Stamkos, Kucherov, and Hedman are.

At the very worst it stops at Point, but after three players I think youre stretching it.


a central and often foundational part usually distinct from the enveloping part by a difference in nature

Guentzle isn't a core player. Neither is f***ing Matt Murray lol.
Kuznetsov is a good one, Ovechkin isn't a good example. (Neither is Crosby by the way.) How often is a player the best player on his cup winning team 12 years after being drafted ?
Bouwmeester and Parayko are not core players. Oreilly, Tarasenko and Pietrangelo were the core players... Guess what? Three years.

Makar, Rantanen, Mackinnon...

Richard wasn't a core player at that time. Beliveau stayed great for a long time and has arguably the 3rd greatest longevity of all-time.

Again, context matters.


A fully healthy McDavid brought his team to 2nd in his division in his second season.
A fully healthy Crosby brought his team to 2nd in the east in his second season.

The point of trading away Debrincat and Hagel and Dach was to get value too. They got Korchinski, Nazar, , Ludwinski, Raddysh (a top 9 player) and 2 other first round picks in 2023-2024.

I think they got shit value on Debrincat, to be fair, but I understand why they made the move.

Korchinski, Nazar, Raddysh and the added spots won to early trades of Dach, Hagel and Debrincat will all provide more value to the team in 2024-2025 than Dach, Hagel and Debrincat and a low top 10 pick/mid teens.

You just make up stuff!

 

[BaseballCoach]

How gracious of you to insult me because I used the example of Maurice Richard being 9th in scoring on the team during his last cup win.

Seriously? I mentioned Maurice and Henri Richard being 15 years apart. They won 5 cups together. The last one, true, Maurice was 9th on the team in scoring.

How about the prior four years? Maurice was 1.0 points per game, and a first all-star once and a second all-star once.

Yeah someone insulted you. Not nice. However, while I'm not insulting you because that is not my style, it remains that you are way off base with this example.

Oh, and I was wrong about Beliveau and Dryden. They were not 15 years apart, they were actually 16.

 

[Mrb1p]

Seriously? I mentioned Maurice and Henri Richard being 15 years apart. They won 5 cups together. The last one, true, Maurice was 9th on the team in scoring.

How about the prior four years? Maurice was 1.0 points per game, and a first all-star once and a second all-star once.

Yeah someone insulted you. Not nice. However, while I'm not insulting you because that is not my style, it remains that you are way off base with this example.

Oh, and I was wrong about Beliveau and Dryden. They were not 15 years apart, they were actually 16.

Again, Maurice Richard is a, at worst, top 15 player of all time. He is not the norm. Neither is Beliveau.

Is any of these players mentionned Richard level? Maybe Bedard? In the other case none of them are H. Richard level anyway.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Again, Maurice Richard is a, at worst, top 15 player of all time. He is not the norm. Neither is Beliveau.

Is any of these players mentionned Richard level? Maybe Bedard? In the other case none of them are H. Richard level anyway.

Seeing as you already admitted that your original statement was wrong, there is no need to keep flogging this.

We can debate Chicago's trades without the assertion that they needed to be nade for age reasons.

From my perspective, they made a terrible deal for Dach, a bad deal for DeBrincat and a good deal for Hagel.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Hahaha are we doing that on this board as well, saying dach was too old for Chicago's window?

What the hell was Hughes thinking? Dach will be 27,28 by the time the Habs are hopefully contending. That only gives him 5 or 6 more years of elite hockey after that.

/s

 

[Habssince89]

Dach is not THE guy to build around, but his addition makes the young core (Suzuki, CC, Guhle, Slaf) way stronger because we're missing that second centre to complete a top6 duo. Now it might remain to be seen how well they develop, but even if they both end up as 70pt players, that's still better than the Centre woes we had for years, because we would never have 2 of those guys at the same time. It would always be one 70ptC and nothing (except times like 2008 when Koivu and Plek's ages timed well). The fact that CC and Dach are in the same draft year is so perfect. I'm excited for the development of the players mentioned because they will benefit from not having to bear all the media pressure as the lone savior. Plus whatever high picks we add this year will further dilute some pressure.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Hahaha are we doing that on this board as well, saying dach was too old for Chicago's window?

What the hell was Hughes thinking? Dach will be 27,28 by the time the Habs are hopefully contending. That only gives him 5 or 6 more years of elite hockey after that.

/s

Dach, Hagel and DeBrincat are allegedly too old (or not good enough) for the Hawks window under this GM. Under a previous GM, they went and got Hossa when Toews and Kane were in their early years (even younger than Suzuki-Caufield age).

But many of our fans here praise and want to emulate the current Hawks GM rather than the former one. They tell us it is too soon to add talent by any means other than a draft pick. And they also say to trade every useful player in their twenties for draft picks too.

Personally, I believe it is NEVER too soon to add (or retain) talent as long as it is not overpaid.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Dach is not THE guy to build around, but his addition makes the young core (Suzuki, CC, Guhle, Slaf) way stronger because we're missing that second centre to complete a top6 duo. Now it might remain to be seen how well they develop, but even if they both end up as 70pt players, that's still better than the Centre woes we had for years, because we would never have 2 of those guys at the same time. It would always be one 70ptC and nothing (except times like 2008 when Koivu and Plek's ages timed well). The fact that CC and Dach are in the same draft year is so perfect. I'm excited for the development of the players mentioned because they will benefit from not having to bear all the media pressure as the lone savior. Plus whatever high picks we add this year will further dilute some pressure.

Dach could have done the same for Chicago if their 13.5% chance at getting Bedard works out.

So their idiocy in getting rid of a three time 40 goal scorer (COVID adjusted) who was only 24 was compounded by also getting rid of a 21 year old player who could be a useful cog for a long time.

I won't qualify the Hagel trade as idiotic because they got a fair return at least, though it boggles the mind that they put him on the block rather than thinking "keeper" first.

Bear in mind that Chicago probably finishes in the bottom 6 or 7 anyway if they keep DeBrincat and Dach, so they did all this to improve their odds by 5-8% or so.

Horrible odds and not a great result even if they win the lottery and hand Bedard an empty team to put on his shoulders.

 

[sandviper]

Dach, Hagel and DeBrincat are allegedly too old (or not good enough) for the Hawks window under this GM. Under a previous GM, they went and got Hossa when Toews and Kane were in their early years (even younger than Suzuki-Caufield age).

But many of our fans here praise and want to emulate the current Hawks GM rather than the former one. They tell us it is too soon to add talent by any means other than a draft pick. And they also say to trade every useful player in their twenties for draft picks too.

Personally, I believe it is NEVER too soon to add (or retain) talent as long as it is not overpaid.

Not sure about “many of our fans” though yes, we got some yahoo‘s saying that.

Most of the sensible fans, including many who participate in the draft threads, I think want to hold on to our picks for at least this year, which is completely reasonable as we aren’t competing this year or next.

Most fans I see want to get rid of the dead weight; Daddy, Dru, Hoff, Gally and Army. Trying to move players like Edmundson and Anderson makes perfect sense if teams want to pony up for them.

While we are rebuilding, I don’t think we’re at the stage of a typical year-1 of a rebuild. We got a nice group of prospects and potential core players, but we do have holes. This is why holding on to our picks, at least first rounders, for 2023 is key. If we can add at least one first liner and perhaps a second top-6 player, that would be so huge. Not sure if there will be any NHL-ready defense next draft, but the 2024 draft does have a lot of interesting defencemen.

I’m not against adding talent but we have to be mindful of how we go about acquiring it. One thing to consider is that accruing draft picks and/or C+ and higher level prospects allows us to flip them in future for talent who can help us then.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Not sure about “many of our fans” though yes, we got some yahoo‘s saying that.

Most of the sensible fans, including many who participate in the draft threads, I think want to hold on to our picks for at least this year, which is completely reasonable as we aren’t competing this year or next.

Most fans I see want to get rid of the dead weight; Daddy, Dru, Hoff, Gally and Army. Trying to move players like Edmundson and Anderson makes perfect sense if teams want to pony up for them.

While we are rebuilding, I don’t think we’re at the stage of a typical year-1 of a rebuild. We got a nice group of prospects and potential core players, but we do have holes. This is why holding on to our picks, at least first rounders, for 2023 is key. If we can add at least one first liner and perhaps a second top-6 player, that would be so huge. Not sure if there will be any NHL-ready defense next draft, but the 2024 draft does have a lot of interesting defencemen.

I’m not against adding talent but we have to be mindful of how we go about acquiring it. One thing to consider is that accruing draft picks and/or C+ and higher level prospects allows us to flip them in future for talent who can help us then.

You would like to keep every high draft pick in order to select some players who will hopefully become core players. However I think we can agree that only a percentage of those drafted outside the top 10 will hit that level though.

If we can trade a first rounder say 12OA or later for a proven core or near-core player with an appropriate cap hit and who is young enough to contribute big-time over the term of his contract, we should not be afraid to do it.

 

[sandviper]

You would like to keep every high draft pick in order to select some players who will hopefully become core players. However I think we can agree that only a percentage of those drafted outside the top 10 will hit that level though.

If we can trade a first rounder say 12OA or later for a proven core or near-core player with an appropriate cap hit and who is young enough to contribute big-time over the term of his contract, we should not be afraid to do it.

I don’t disagree as it obviously worked out for us with Dach. However, there’s similar risk as well if your pro scouts either aren’t doing their job or if you’re a GM fixated on a particular player. Kind of thinking of Sergachev for Drouin, which could be why some people are gun shy about the idea.

Just in case my message isn’t clear, I am in favour of moving picks where we can get a potential core player or one who is there now if the team is in the right place of the rebuild. While my threshold is anything outside the top-10 is fair game, I’d be a bit hesitant this year unless the return makes sense.

 

[Habs13]

Chicago are taking a huge risk trying to tank for Bedard - if they don't get him, and I hope they don't, they will have screwed themselves over massively. I don't see their logic. It's one thing to dump vets but to bump good, young, talented kids is unbelievable

 

[BaseballCoach]

Chicago are taking a huge risk trying to tank for Bedard - if they don't get him, and I hope they don't, they will have screwed themselves over massively. I don't see their logic. It's one thing to dump vets but to bump good, young, talented kids is unbelievable

You can't win the race to the bottom without either being unexpectedly horrible, or scorching the earth to try to increase your odds.

But the NHL lottery system is purposely designed to only reward bad play PARTIALLY. The difference in calibre between drafting 5th or 28th is far, far less than the difference in roster calibre between the 5th worst team and the 5th best.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Chicago are taking a huge risk trying to tank for Bedard - if they don't get him, and I hope they don't, they will have screwed themselves over massively. I don't see their logic. It's one thing to dump vets but to bump good, young, talented kids is unbelievable

They were dumb as hell, especially trading away debrincat, a proven player for a shitty pick in a shitty draft.

 

[Kojo]

They were dumb as hell, especially trading away debrincat, a proven player for a shitty pick in a shitty draft.

It wasn't a good trade for the Hawks but it wasn't a shitty draft, lots of good prospects in the first round and Habs picked up Beck and Hutson in the second round.

 

[26Mats]

They were dumb as hell, especially trading away debrincat, a proven player for a shitty pick in a shitty draft.

In your analysis of the move, did you consider that they put themselves in prime position to get one of Bedard, Fantelli, or Mishkov? And be in prime position to draft top of the draft for a few consecutive years?

Because that was the whole point.

The Pens finished bottom teo 4 years in a row. It was only in year 3 that they got Crosby. No 3 years in a row at bottom 2, no Crosby and no 3 Stanley cups.

 

[Kojo]

In your analysis of the move, did you consider that they put themselves in prime position to get one of Bedard, Fantelli, or Mishkov? And be in prime position to draft top of the draft for a few consecutive years?

Because that was the whole point.

The Pens finished bottom teo 4 years in a row. It was only in year 3 that they got Crosby. No 3 years in a row at bottom 2, no Crosby and no 3 Stanley cups.

Still not a good gamble since they can only have 25% chance to win the Bedard lottery.

 

[26Mats]

Still not a good gamble since they can only have 25% chance to win the Bedard lottery.

But if they get Fantilli or Mishkov, plus top 3 picks in the next 3 drafts...

 

[Kojo]

But if they get Fantilli or Mishkov, plus top 3 picks in the next 3 drafts...

The next three drafts shouldn't be a factor here, we don't know that far in the future. If they get Bedard and we don't, they will win a lot more often and Habs will continue to be average. Fantilli would also be good for them, to ruin their chance at future top 3 picks. If they select Michkov it could be a problem, I agree.

 

[26Mats]

The next three drafts shouldn't be a factor here, we don't know that far in the future. If they get Bedard and we don't, they will win a lot more often and Habs will continue to be average. Fantilli would also be good for them, to ruin their chance at future top 3 picks. If they select Michkov it could be a problem, I agree.

If they get a player that can ruin that disaster of a roster's ability to finish bottom 3, they made a great move by allowing themselves finish bottom of the league this year and get said player.

 

[Kojo]

If they get a player that can ruin that disaster of a roster's ability to finish bottom 3, they made a great move by allowing themselves finish bottom of the league this year and get said player.

If Habs took that kind of gamble the fans would be furious. Losing DeBrincat and Dach for a chance at Bedard or top 3 picks in the near future is a questionable management decision.

 

[26Mats]

If Habs took that kind of gamble the fans would be furious. Losing DeBrincat and Dach for a chance at Bedard or top 3 picks in the near future is a questionable management decision.

The while point is that it's not just a chance at Bedard. It's multiple years at the bottom. That's how the Pens - and the Hawks - built their cup winners. (Kane, Toews, Seabrook, etc..)

 

[Kojo]

The while point is that it's not just a chance at Bedard. It's multiple years at the bottom. That's how the Pens - and the Hawks - built their cup winners. (Kane, Toews, Seabrook, etc..)

I don't believe in this but some people around here think that this method is cultivating a losing culture and could be detrimental to our prospects. If the Hawks want to keep losing for 3 more years that's their problem. We're not them.

 

[26Mats]

I don't believe in this but some people around here think that this method is cultivating a losing culture and could be detrimental to our prospects. If they want to keep losing for 3 more years that's their problem.

Could be true.

But the Haws drafted #14, #3, #7, #1, #3, and #11 during six straight years of losing and built their core from those drafts that went on to win 2 cups.