Player Discussion Alex DeBrincat

[Pinto Bean]

Take a look at the winners and losers of top line FWD for top 4 D trades historically

Feel free to list them but the obvious one that comes to mind is Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson. At this point in time given the Sens needs, you take Adam Larsson 10/10. Hall had probably one year where he actually made that trade look bad. Larsson has added an incredible amount of value to pretty much all the below average teams he's been on.

That being said, I don't think past trades have to set a future precedent. But yes, you're generally not going to get as talented a player if you're trading a winger for a defensemen given how much more value Right shot dmen hold compared to wingers. Given the current makeup of the team, you most definitely trade a more talented winger for a stable, minute-eating defensemen.

This team without DeBrincat still has a top 9 that has: Tkachuk, Batherson, Norris, Giroux, Stutzle, Pinto, Motte & Joseph.

Adding a top-4 Right dman means we never see Zaitsev again and this carousel of below average, over-the-hill defenders never happens again.

 

[Pinto Bean]

Marino went for Ty Smith and a third, DeAngelo is a dummy but he went for a 2nd, 3rd and 4th as an RFA. Toews want for two seconds. You don't need to give up DeBrincat as the asset, if you think he'll cost too much that's a different issue but if you want a top 4 D, you're usually better off trying to find someone undervalued with room to grow than trade a major asset.

The Marino & Toews deals are seen as a massive steal everyone. Trying to come up with future deals by comparing it to past steals isn't going to result in realistic trade scenarios. Besides, when that Ty Smith deal was made, he only had 1 year of poor hockey under his belt. Prior to that, Ty Smith was seen as one of the best defensive prospects in hockey. Even more so after his strong rookie season in NJ. His long track-record of success allowed him to still hold solid value going into that trade with PIT.

I don't think the Sens had many trade pieces that would be worth more than Ty Smith at the time of the deal. Greig, Pinto, 1st round picks, etc are probably the only ones. Maybe a guy like Ostapuchk ++. But the usual names being thrown around like Brannstrom, Sokolov, Boucher, etc etc wouldn't have cut it for Marino.

DeAngelo is a unique situation that is pretty circumstantial.

I think it's important to note that I'm also not just saying a top-4 dman. I'm also saying a right shot dman, who is a good age, has a good contract, and is reliable defensively. I'm basically asking for Zub-esque player if he was extended. I'm of the belief that another Zub would benefit this team far more then DeBrincat given the current structure of the Sens.

 

[JD1]

While I am disappointed in his play so far, it's probably best to wait until after xmas before we start to worry about the kid. It isn't easy going to a new team with a (who knows what the hell it is) system and a lame duck coach. Not to mention he was lauded as the guy who was going to get us to the playoffs and turn the Sens into a contender over the summer. All that has got to be playing with his head right now.

The problem with waiting til Christmas is being out of it by Christmas while our top goal scorer "adjusts"

 

[Adrianopolous]

Still PPG while adjusting to a new team. I know he will pick things up

 

[Bevans]

If he were shooting at his career average % he'd be on pace for 107 points. Hopefully the monkey is off his back now.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

The problem with waiting til Christmas is being out of it by Christmas while our top goal scorer "adjusts"

Trading debrincat for a second pairing d man isn’t getting us into the po

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

The problem with waiting til Christmas is being out of it by Christmas while our top goal scorer "adjusts"

Well, that's sometimes what happens when a team makes significant changes all at once.

Add in two significant injuries on the roster and things go loopy in a hurry.

 

[bicboi64]

A few more games with Cat scoring like we expected him to and we aren't bottom of the division. Whether we intend on trading him for D help or signing him long term, I hope he goes on a goal scoring streak and brings his shooting percentage back up to a career norm. We need him to be scoring big goals if we have any hope of salvaging this season

 

[Icelevel]

lol Debrincat even without the goals has been far better than Ryan ever was here (other than that playoff run).

So untrue it’s like you never watched a game back then.
MacArthur-Turris-Ryan was absolute fire
And Ryan had some amazing games particularly when we travelled out west.

 

[Micklebot]

So untrue it’s like you never watched a game back then.
MacArthur-Turris-Ryan was absolute fire
And Ryan had some amazing games particularly when we travelled out west.

I mean, at his peak here on the Turris and Macarthur line, Ryan peaked at a 22g 57 pts pace, DeBrincat is pacing at 24g 76 pts, even era adjusted scoring has DeBrincat come out well ahead.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Marino went for Ty Smith and a third, DeAngelo is a dummy but he went for a 2nd, 3rd and 4th as an RFA. Toews want for two seconds. You don't need to give up DeBrincat as the asset, if you think he'll cost too much that's a different issue but if you want a top 4 D, you're usually better off trying to find someone undervalued with room to grow than trade a major asset.

Marino and Toews are two of the biggest steals of top 4 D we've seen in years.

They usually aren't traded and when they are in normally takes a lot more to acquire. Can't expect to acquire top 4 D for peanuts.

I was pounding the table to acquire those two guys but the Sens pro scouting staff is garbage and passed on them of course.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Why are we discussing trading a PPG player so far who has multiple 40 goal seasons lol common now

Whether it's in the best interest of the organization to spend 8-9M on another forward, which would mean spending around 50M on our top 7 forwards between DeBrincat, Stutzle, Tkachuk, Norris, Giroux, Batherson and Pinto, is definitely worth discussing.

I've been saying for years as a budget team we need to be focused on building from the net out. I've used the Preds as an example of a team that historically hasn't been able to spend as much as the rich teams in the league but has had incredible success (made the playoffs 15 of the last 18 years) by focusing on winning close games as a result of having a great team defense and quality goaltending.

There's a ton of work to be done with the defense and serious questions in goal going forward with Talbot being a UFA after this year and Forsberg looking like he's more of a quality backup or 1B starter. We definitely need to allocate more money towards the defense and goaltending positions, and unfortunately that's going to mean making some hard decisions at forward.

 

[Micklebot]

Marino and Toews are two of the biggest steals of top 4 D we've seen in years.

They usually aren't traded and when they are in normally takes a lot more to acquire. Can't expect to acquire top 4 D for peanuts.

I was pounding the table to acquire those two guys but the Sens pro scouting staff is garbage and passed on them of course.

Both guys have exceeded expectations since being traded, but they show what actual acquisition cost is for less proven guys top 4. Nobody was offering up DeBrincat level players for Marino or Toews, even if you add to what it took to acquire them it's not close, regardless of how much you were banging at the table.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Both guys have exceeded expectations since being traded, but they show what actual acquisition cost is for less proven guys top 4. Nobody was offering up DeBrincat level players for Marino or Toews, even if you add to what it took to acquire them it's not close, regardless of how much you were banging at the table.

Again, I don't know who is seriously suggesting trading DeBrincat for a non-star defenseman 1-for-1 just to try to fix the D.

I would look to deal DeBrincat for a big package of prospects and picks - let's say a 1st, 1st-round quality prospect and a good young player - then use some of those assets and a portion of the 8-9M in cap space we would have otherwise spent to keep him to acquire a good 2nd pairing D.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I would have been fine re-signing ADB had we not just rushed to throw 8M at Norris on a long-term deal after a single year of putting up high-end goal totals.

If Stutzle is playing on the #1 PP, which we certainly hope he should be as the highest paid forward on the team, there's only room for one shooter on the top PP. Until Norris was injured we were paying DeBrincat 9M in salary to play on the 2nd PP, which is a waste.

With Pinto looking like an absolute stud it would have been nice to bridge Norris and deal to a team desperate for a center, but that opportunity has passed.

 

[Alex1234]

New another Cat power GDT for a hat trick tonight

 

[bert]

A few more games with Cat scoring like we expected him to and we aren't bottom of the division. Whether we intend on trading him for D help or signing him long term, I hope he goes on a goal scoring streak and brings his shooting percentage back up to a career norm. We need him to be scoring big goals if we have any hope of salvaging this season

Do people really want Dorion making anymore big moves? This likely wont be his team much longer. I really just want them to stand pat and try and pick up guys off the waiver wire as they have the pick of the leftovers with their current position in the standings. This team had alot of turnover time to see how they look together for a sustained period of time.

I would have been fine re-signing ADB had we not just rushed to throw 8M at Norris on a long-term deal after a single year of putting up high-end goal totals.

If Stutzle is playing on the #1 PP, which we certainly hope he should be as the highest paid forward on the team, there's only room for one shooter on the top PP. Until Norris was injured we were paying DeBrincat 9M in salary to play on the 2nd PP, which is a waste.

With Pinto looking like an absolute stud it would have been nice to bridge Norris and deal to a team desperate for a center, but that opportunity has passed.

You actually dont think Norris is a long term solution for this team? Look how they have fallen off without him. He plays the most of any forward. Takes all the hardest matchups. There is room for Debrincat, they just have to stop spending the rest of the money poorly.

They can bridge Pinto to the point where all the buy outs are off the books players like Zaitsev are gone and the salary cap goes up.

People need to be more patient with Debrincat. He just got here first time being traded and has been snake bitten while still being on pace for 75 points. It takes time to get adjusted to a new, team, country, city, system and linemates.

 

[Hale The Villain]

You actually dont think Norris is a long term solution for this team? Look how they have fallen off without him. He plays the most of any forward. Takes all the hardest matchups. There is room for Debrincat, they just have to stop spending the rest of the money poorly.

They can bridge Pinto to the point where all the buy outs are off the books players like Zaitsev are gone and the salary cap goes up.

People need to be more patient with Debrincat. He just got here first time being traded and has been snake bitten while still being on pace for 75 points. It takes time to get adjusted to a new, team, country, city, system and linemates.

I think we have room for DeBrincat or Norris, not both.

I don't think people are taking into consideration how weak we are looking at defense and in goal.

Our defense already sucks and Zub is an upcoming UFA. There haven't been any rumours of significant negotiations taking place. We lose him and our best RD signed into next year is JBD. Need to keep him and that may mean overpaying.

In goal we have Talbot, who's 35YRs old and an upcoming UFA, and Forsberg who looks like a 1B starter at best right now. May need to allocate more money to a quality starter who can be here long-term if Talbot regresses or doesn't want to stay in Ottawa.

If we can't find a top 4 D to acquire, the next best solution may be trading for a legitimate #1, should one become available.

 

[bert]

I think we have room for DeBrincat or Norris, not both.

I don't think people are taking into consideration how weak we are looking at defense and in goal.

Our defense already sucks and Zub is an upcoming UFA. There haven't been any rumours of significant negotiations taking place. We lose him and our best RD signed into next year is JBD. Need to keep him and that may mean overpaying.

In goal we have Talbot, who's 35YRs old and an upcoming UFA, and Forsberg who looks like a 1B starter at best right now. May need to allocate more money to a quality starter who can be here long-term if Talbot regresses or doesn't want to stay in Ottawa.

If we can't find a top 4 D to acquire, the next best solution may be trading for a legitimate #1, should one become available.

I mean if you look at the cap and the money they do.

I dont think you are looking at where the cap is going or the money coming off the books.

The sens have the D core in the system people just need to be more patient. Chabot has to play better and I think he will. These massive overhauls of the roster before this one gets settled isnt looking at this realistically or objectively.

Why would a legitimate number 1 D man become available?... The sens have their d they just arent here yet unfortunately. They were 4-2 before the Zub injury. They need a new coach this team after 14 games isnt what this team is going to be in a year.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I mean if you look at the cap and the money they do.

I dont think you are looking at where the cap is going or the money coming off the books.

The sens have the D core in the system people just need to be more patient. Chabot has to play better and I think he will. These massive overhauls of the roster before this one gets settled isnt looking at this realistically or objectively.

Why would a legitimate number 1 D man become available?... The sens have their d they just arent here yet unfortunately. They were 4-2 before the Zub injury. They need a new coach this team after 14 games isnt what this team is going to be in a year.

We have around 22M in cap space next off-season to re-sign ADB, Zub, Pinto, Talbot, Formenton, 3 forwards and 3 more defensemen.

If I'm being charitable and we don't need to overpay players to keep them in Ottawa:

ADB: 8.5M
Zub: 5M
Pinto: 4M (bridge deal)
Talbot: 4.5M
Formenton: 2M

= 24M in cap just for those 5.

That's without dumping Zaitsev, but it's also not not taking into consideration having to re-sign Holden, Brannstrom, JBD and calling up 3 more depth forwards like Greig, Sokolov and Crookshank to replace Motte, Watson and Brassard.

After 2023/24 there is about 3.4M coming off the cap + 4.5M going to Zaitsev, but Sanderson's long-term deal will take up all of that.

There's basically no money left next season to improve the defense or goaltending if we re-sign ADB.

It's possible the cap goes up and helps us out, but of course that begs the question - do we spend to the higher salary cap?

And sorry I meant legitimate #1 goaltender, not #1 defenseman. They are rare too but come available more frequently than #1 D.

 

[Alex1234]

We have around 22M in cap space next off-season to re-sign ADB, Zub, Pinto, Talbot, Formenton, 3 forwards and 3 more defensemen.

If I'm being charitable and we don't need to overpay players to keep them in Ottawa:

ADB: 8.5M
Zub: 5M
Pinto: 4M (bridge deal)
Talbot: 4.5M
Formenton: 2M

= 24M in cap just for those 5.

That's without dumping Zaitsev, but it's also not not taking into consideration having to re-sign Holden, Brannstrom, JBD and calling up 3 more depth forwards like Greig, Sokolov and Crookshank to replace Motte, Watson and Brassard.

After 2023/24 there is about 3.4M coming off the cap + 4.5M going to Zaitsev, but Sanderson's long-term deal will take up all of that.

There's basically no money left next season to improve the defense or goaltending if we re-sign ADB.

It's possible the cap goes up and helps us out, but of course that begs the question - do we spend to the higher salary cap?

And sorry I meant legitimate #1 goaltender, not #1 defenseman. They are rare too but come available more frequently than #1 D.

I think you can forget about formy for now

 

[bicboi64]

10 minutes of PP time...DeBrincat has probably been the most frustrating (or unlucky) forward this year

 

[HSF]

Something is off about how they use him on the PP . He was rarely getting touches unless it was for a one timer.

I really hope we bring in a new coach soon who can have a fresh set of eyes on the team with no bias.

 

[PlayersLtd]

Whether it's in the best interest of the organization to spend 8-9M on another forward, which would mean spending around 50M on our top 7 forwards between DeBrincat, Stutzle, Tkachuk, Norris, Giroux, Batherson and Pinto, is definitely worth discussing.

I've been saying for years as a budget team we need to be focused on building from the net out. I've used the Preds as an example of a team that historically hasn't been able to spend as much as the rich teams in the league but has had incredible success (made the playoffs 15 of the last 18 years) by focusing on winning close games as a result of having a great team defense and quality goaltending.

There's a ton of work to be done with the defense and serious questions in goal going forward with Talbot being a UFA after this year and Forsberg looking like he's more of a quality backup or 1B starter. We definitely need to allocate more money towards the defense and goaltending positions, and unfortunately that's going to mean making some hard decisions at forward.

Agreed but the difference being that Nashville drafted all that defence out talent, specifically Rinne, Weber, Josi, Jones, Ekholm and Ryan Ellis.

During our current window of opportunity we have Chabot, Sanderson and Zub in our garage and Sogaard as a coin toss. I know you're not suggesting otherwise but at this point we can't follow the same model with nearly the same efficiency as Nashville did.

I think were pretty committed to a high skill, up tempo offence that outpaces the opposition and gets by with average D, slightly above average if we strike gold with someone like Kleven, JBD, Hamara or Thomson. And our goaltending will be a wildcard year over year.

 

[PlayersLtd]

We should be starting to think really hard about trading ADC. He is simply not stirring the drink and he stands out to me as the player that is having the most difficulty adjusting.

This was the season for us to show signs that it would all be worth it to lose him for nothing after an all in cup run in 2024. That isn't happening so reshuffle the deck. Look for the right trade and make it between now and the TDL.

I wouldn't consider it a failure because we can still parlay him into a solid contributor for the upcoming window of competitiveness, the same can't be said of the 7th OA pick.