Player Discussion Alex DeBrincat

[lomekian]

Probably a one off but I read someone today say Kasper was tracking to be somewhere between Kesler and Couturier.

I like Kasper too, and wouldn’t move him for Cat if I were Detroit, but having one of these 75 point Selke winners as his downside is pretty optimistic.

Tbh as a wings fan I think projecting where Kasper tops out at this stage is not something that can be done with confidence. He could reach that level, or he could top out as a better version of peak Kris Draper. The thing is with these kind of trades is that for the wings, any prospects with significant potential upside are probably of greater value to DRW than to the other team, given the timeline Detroit is currently working in, and the similar ages of other top prospects in the timeline.

Tbh, the Red Wings aren't a good trade partner for the Sens, but there doesn't appear a huge amount of competition.

Henkka always gets a bit too hyperbolic posting about prospects, but when he/she actually gets into detail is a pretty reasonably poster. I did raise my eyebrows at this one myself!

 

[lomekian]

Agree to disagree.

I think Stevie Y, who I like personally, needs to justify what exactly he is doing. I see drafted studs in Seider and Raymond. Everyone else is a question mark on where they ultimately land. Further he’s made some pretty bad UFA signings.

Detroit isn’t exactly number one on the free agent location. Better than Ottawa no doubt. But not at the top of the list.

So you have another year of rebuilding or push for a playoff spot. I don’t see the team this year being grittier or much better. And that D isn’t good at all. No offence.

So I think Stevie is under pressure. He could push for a spot.

Let’s say he doesn’t do the cat. Saying he will sign him for free next year. What if Seattle or Columbus offer more? What if they are so good cat gets money he wants and term. What if Stevie doesn’t offer him money and no deal?

Dorion can ship him and be judged at the end of the year. Or keep him and be judged at the end of the year. Either way he isn’t judged on cat. But on playoffs.

I see Stevie under pressure tbh. We can all deny it. But I don’t see it. I’m not sure where this rhetoric even comes from. It seems non-sens fans think there is. Most sens fans are more than okay with a shit return or a rental return. Simply bc they want the cap space.

Yet leaf fans and wings fans think he’s under pressure. I mean… okay? Lol but I live in ottawa. I live and breath the sens. I’m on Twitter and HF. And I’m assuring all involved, Pierre is not under pressure on return, simply to not take back cap.

I understand what you are saying, but my point is not that SY will wait to try to get DBC in FA, but rather that he's not so enamoured with the player to give up more than he needs to and overpay on contract when its a move that would be opportunistic rather than strategic.

Its clear as day that with or without DBC, Detroit are at best a Wildcard team who would need a seriously unexpected upturn to make any playoff impact. This isn't a mature team in need of a scorer now to make a difference. This is a team whose hopes are basically invested in Larkin and a load of guys 22 or younger. Sure getting DBC on a good deal at a good price would be fantastic, but in the short term isn't really a massive difference maker.

Had DRW kept Hronek and Bertuzzi (or traded Bertuzzi for roster players), and/or not had to give up on a potential 30+ scorer in Vrana for off ice issues, then Yzerman would be under more pressure, because there would be a roster that 'should' be competing for a Playoff spot if it could get one more top 6 forward. As things stand, losing Vrana, Bertuzzi and Hronek for nothing immediate has put the rebuild back.

If it hadn't, and a couple of the FAs signed and joined, then there would be more pressure on SY to make this deal happen, because that strength of roster 'should' guarantee a playoff appearance. The current reality is that as things stand, acquiring DBC still probably has the Red Wings hoping for a Wild Card spot rather than expecting one.

 

[lomekian]

Detroit’s prospects are fantastic.

Edvinsson, Kasper, Danielson would all be Ottawas top prospects pretty easily (not a huggge fan of Danielson where he was picked, but great prospect). All should be very good core pieces, which are extremely valuable.

The guys like Berggren and Kubalik, definitely overrated in my opinion. Nice middle 9 lineup filler, not much more, definitely not core guys.

I don't think anyone sees Kubalik as anything more than a 'decent' 2nd line winger who blows hot and cold. Berggren would divide opinion more because apart from when he missed a year through injury, he has surpassed pre-season expectations every year, and has developed areas of his game that no-one expected. He was supposed to be a perimeter playmaking winger who had a great passing ability but wouldn't ever score much, but last season got more goals than assists despite playing with linemates not blessed with creativity. I suspect he is as you say a middle six tweener, but his year on year development has people dreaming...

 

[lomekian]

Outside of Edvinsson, Kasper, Danielson and maybe Cossa, the rest of the stock are looking like a bunch of middling players, top 6-9F or 4D at best, every team has quite a few of them in their system or in their roster already and they're also readily available via trades and UFA signings. They don't have anything particularly special imo, even Kasper and Danielson are probably gonna end up somewhere between decent to very good 2nd line talents, I don't see them any more than that. They have no high end players outside of Seider, and no legit scorers either. Not impressed with the Yzerplan so far 5 years in, and I don't think their fanbase will either in 2-3 years once patience runs out with him. They're going into 8th year of no playoffs, and clearly have no plans to contend this season with all those terrible FA signings.

Yzerman will have more time because of his prior reputation as a GM, his hometown hero status, and the fact that most Wings fans recognise that KH left him with as big a rebuild job as there has been in the cap era. 3 top 6 forwards, no top 4 D, nothing in net, a slew of bad contracts no-one wanted and a barren prospect pool, whose greatest hope at the time has just voided his contract after no-one wanted him on waivers.

So far Yzerman has traded pretty well, drafted pretty well based on what we can gauge to date and on the whole done pretty well in the FA market given Detroit have not been an attractive option. The team is better than he found it, much younger, with a much better prospect pool, an emerging stylistic identity and no cap problems or disastrous contracts. It's a bit boring he's going the slow and steady route after we lived through the late Holland decline, but the direction of travel has been positive every year.

Given that he arrived with as much credit in the bank as any GM can have in a new job, it's going to take a lot more than 'this is a bit slow and boring' to lose the fans patience

The trade for Debrincat last year led to the biggest free agent signing in our history, our #1 centre being locked up long term, and a top 4 D with term choosing the Sens as his preferred trade deadline destination. I still don’t see the trade as a disaster even where things currently stand, it was an important move from an organizational bigger picture perspective.

If you see those things as intrinsically linked I certainly understand your perspective. Impossible to be certain either way, but I can't discount that view. I just had the impression that Pierre's seat was pretty toasty, so any L would be bad for him

 

[Loach]

The trade for Debrincat last year led to the biggest free agent signing in our history, our #1 centre being locked up long term, and a top 4 D with term choosing the Sens as his preferred trade deadline destination. I still don’t see the trade as a disaster even where things currently stand, it was an important move from an organizational bigger picture perspective.

No.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

The trade for Debrincat last year led to the biggest free agent signing in our history, our #1 centre being locked up long term, and a top 4 D with term choosing the Sens as his preferred trade deadline destination. I still don’t see the trade as a disaster even where things currently stand, it was an important move from an organizational bigger picture perspective.

None of those things can be directly correlated to DeBrincat being brought in though. It may, or may not, have been a factor.

 

[Loach]

None of those things can be directly correlated to DeBrincat being brought in though. It may, or may not, have been a factor.

Be honest. It had nothing to do with it.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Be honest. It had nothing to do with it.

I like to play the middle a little too much at times.

 

[Ice-Tray]

When Andlauer takes over, the boards job is done. They be gone. The new GM already knows the prospects and players. What do you think has been going on all this time? Get out of here. Lmao

Settle down dude, we aren’t likely to see major changes for a while yet.

I hope you can stay cool with the new majority owner if he doesn’t satisfy your desire for heads to roll right off the bat.

It‘a not really the normal play for changes of ownership, it would be strange for the GM and coach to be fired right before the season starts.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Settle down dude, we aren’t likely to see major changes for a while yet.

I hope you can stay cool with the new majority owner if he doesn’t satisfy your desire for heads to roll right off the bat.

It‘a not really the normal play for changes of ownership, it would be strange for the GM and coach to be fired right before the season starts.

Maybe not before, but I could see it happening in October if we don’t get immediate results, like Chicago in 08-09.

 

[MarkStone]

None of those things can be directly correlated to DeBrincat being brought in though. It may, or may not, have been a factor.

I think it definitely signified an attempt to take another step in the rebuild which had an influence on the following steps mentioned in my previous post.

Brady and others had asked for help in the previous season’s end of season interviews. This trade was the first step in an attempt to address this. Whether this singular step is a long term success remains to be seen, I’m not thrilled Debrincat wants out but I can’t fault Dorion for trying in the first place.

It’s hard to argue with the “No” counter-argument though.

 

[Tragedy]

Wrong forum

Imagine discussing hockey on a hockey forum. Disgusting

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I think it definitely signified an attempt to take another step in the rebuild which had an influence on the following steps mentioned in my previous post.

Brady and others had asked for help in the previous season’s end of season interviews. This trade was the first step in an attempt to address this. Whether this singular step is a long term success remains to be seen, I’m not thrilled Debrincat wants out but I can’t fault Dorion for trying in the first place.

It’s hard to argue with the “No” counter-argument though.

I hear what you're saying. I guess what I meant to say and should have elaborated on is that while the argument is there, nobody can say that with certainty. It's speculation basically.

I have a hard time with the quote from you below implying such certainty. You can argue just as easily, imo overwhelmingly, that Giroux was heavily rumored and just as likely to sign. Of course he still spoke with excitement of Cat being brought in. Stutzle signing I don't see really related at all and still likely to occur. Chychrun was also a heavily rumored trade target and spoke glowingly about coming back home or whatever, dude was basically crying in one interview and talking about his dad and family a lot, so I see that as a bigger more emotional journey to that point for him than one acquisition. Honestly, I think any of those specifics being related to the Cat trade are a huge reach and the better argument is ticket sales and potential positivity heading into the sale. It's also assuming Dorion couldn't and wouldn't have done something else that may have been better long term. There may even be an argument for paying a higher price to have Chychrun all year while forgoing the DeBrincat trade and maybe a side piece either trade or UFA that fits in the middle 6. And I think all that covers satisfying Brady and Chabot enough.

"The trade for Debrincat last year led to the biggest free agent signing in our history, our #1 centre being locked up long term, and a top 4 D with term choosing the Sens as his preferred trade deadline destination."

 

[Ice-Tray]

Maybe not before, but I could see it happening in October if we don’t get immediate results, like Chicago in 08-09.

Yup, there are lots of potential performance based reasons and times that lead to change.

I’m just not sure we’re going to see change for the sake of change on the eve of the regular season.

I also personally hope that the team has a wicked season because I’d prefer to see that than any alternatIve that would lead to necessitating a full sweep of the coaching staff and front office.

Change will happen in due time, I have no doubt.

 

[JD1]

Well, if the Senators want to have more money to spend on other players, Joseph could be moved. I won't get into the cost. I'm just sticking with the numbers. I just run these spreadsheets to show what's possible and what could be done. Other spreadsheet iterations can be generated very quickly.

They can explain to Pinto what they are doing and why they are doing it if they were to give him a one-year, 10.2.c. type contract. In this case, Pinto would be waiting one year longer to get paid. Of course, I'm not sure how he'd react.

There's really nothing for Pinto to react to. His contract status is what it is and his agent should be talking to him about realistic expectations. He's got no bargaining leverage and the team is up against a tight cap. Now is not the time for Pinto to be looking for a big deal and his own people should be making that clear to him

 

[JD1]

The trade for Debrincat last year led to the biggest free agent signing in our history, our #1 centre being locked up long term, and a top 4 D with term choosing the Sens as his preferred trade deadline destination. I still don’t see the trade as a disaster even where things currently stand, it was an important move from an organizational bigger picture perspective.

I completely agree with this and it in part led to rejuvenating the fan base and the business community base.

But what's going to happen when he gets traded is:

This is what went out versus this is what came in #asset mgmt with ne regard whatsoever for what you've noted.

 

[Silencio]

None of those things can be directly correlated to DeBrincat being brought in though. It may, or may not, have been a factor.

In his first interview after signing with Ottawa Giroux stated all the moves Dorion had made (including trading for DeBrincat) was a factor as it demonstrated to him that the Sens were serious about being competitive.

Giroux signs three-year, $19.5 million contract with Senators | NHL.com

Forward to get $6.5 million annually; had 23 points in 18 games after trade to Panthers

www.nhl.com

 

[JD1]

People talk about Yzerman like he's some kind of hockey savant. Detroit is imo perfectly in no man's land and also with limited opportunity to get out of no man's land.

They're not going to challenge for a playoff spot any time soon and they're not close to a bottom feeder. They're "rebuilding" but it seems perpetual at this point. They've got some young talent but that talent is at odds with Larkin's contract age wise and I wouldn't have hitched my wagon to Larkin. Sure he's a good player, but he's not near an upper end 1C and he's now signed for 8 years with trade protection. He's the 1C. I wouldn't trade for him straight up for Norris considering contracts and Norris isn't our 1C.

One of the things DJ has said multiple times in the past 6 months is to the effect of "we'd go into games and the other team has the 3 or 4 best players" and commenting on how that's changing.

Look at these teams head to head. We probably have anywhere from the best 3 to 6 players on the ice.

Stuetzle
Tkachuk
Sanderson

Potentially
Chabot
Chychrun
Norris

And a better goaltending situation

We can talk about Detroit's great prospect bench, but you know what? It's not going to change who the best players are head to head, which is to say they don't have prospects that are locked in to developing better than the names I mentioned

 

[Random Comment]

People talk about Yzerman like he's some kind of hockey savant. Detroit is imo perfectly in no man's land and also with limited opportunity to get out of no man's land.

They're not going to challenge for a playoff spot any time soon and they're not close to a bottom feeder. They're "rebuilding" but it seems perpetual at this point. They've got some young talent but that talent is at odds with Larkin's contract age wise and I wouldn't have hitched my wagon to Larkin. Sure he's a good player, but he's not near an upper end 1C and he's now signed for 8 years with trade protection. He's the 1C. I wouldn't trade for him straight up for Norris considering contracts and Norris isn't our 1C.

One of the things DJ has said multiple times in the past 6 months is to the effect of "we'd go into games and the other team has the 3 or 4 best players" and commenting on how that's changing.

Look at these teams head to head. We probably have anywhere from the best 3 to 6 players on the ice.

Stutzle
Tkachuk
Sanderson

Potentially
Chabot
Chychrun
Norris

And a better goaltending situation

We can talk about Detroit's great prospect bench, but you know what? It's not going to change who the best players are head to head, which is to say they don't have prospects that are locked in to developing better than the names I mentioned

You wouldn’t trade Norris for Larkin? That’s wild.

 

[JD1]

You wouldn’t trade Norris for Larkin? That’s wild.

No I wouldn't

I think they're close as players but Norris has age and contract in his favour

 

[Big Muddy]

If the news from "sources" is to believed, I suppose the relevant question is whether Debrincat would sign an extension with the Isles? From the little we know based on what is being reported, it seems he will sign an extension if he's going to Detroit, and then it's just guessing and speculation regarding the other teams.

 

[UglyPuckling]

There's really nothing for Pinto to react to. His contract status is what it is and his agent should be talking to him about realistic expectations. He's got no bargaining leverage and the team is up against a tight cap. Now is not the time for Pinto to be looking for a big deal and his own people should be making that clear to him

I agree. That sentence you reacted to was because I was addressing something that was said by the other poster. As always, context is important. If the Senators want to provide a lower, one year 10.2.c. offer to Pinto because they feel they need to (or for whatever reason), they will.

 

[Wondercarrot]

You wouldn’t trade Norris for Larkin? That’s wild.

I wouldn’t make that trade either.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I think it definitely signified an attempt to take another step in the rebuild which had an influence on the following steps mentioned in my previous post.

Brady and others had asked for help in the previous season’s end of season interviews. This trade was the first step in an attempt to address this. Whether this singular step is a long term success remains to be seen, I’m not thrilled Debrincat wants out but I can’t fault Dorion for trying in the first place.

It’s hard to argue with the “No” counter-argument though.

Dorion tries. I can behind that.

I think its pretty reasonable to think that when you attract good players you can attract players who want to play with other good players. I don't think there was a master plan. I don't think projected ticket sales factored into the trade thought. There was a by product but it wasn't a projection pre trade.

I don't think it was a great move trading for Debrincat with the real prospect of what is actually happening now. And I think it left the roster top heavy (a 2 line team) with a less than ideal D corps and a very weak bottom 6. So the roster construction vision wasn't great and even with a reasonable extension say (8x8) it left little to spread elsewhere.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

In his first interview after signing with Ottawa Giroux stated all the moves Dorion had made (including trading for DeBrincat) was a factor as it demonstrated to him that the Sens were serious about being competitive.

Giroux signs three-year, $19.5 million contract with Senators | NHL.com

Forward to get $6.5 million annually; had 23 points in 18 games after trade to Panthers

www.nhl.com

Yup, he acknowledged it, all the moves. I listened to those too. Again though, nobody can say with certainty that it doesn't just happen anyways. I'm not saying guys wouldn't have liked it happening in general, but Giroux was heavily rumoured for months. It was also the only thing in that posters list that had any sort of direct connection or quote like that available, it was a bunch of scenarios thrown together with basically a see what DeBrincat did for us as if it was black and white. Dont buy that personally.