Player Discussion Alex DeBrincat

[Alf Silfversson]

I find a phrase gets uttered here on HF and then repeated over and over until it's taken as gospel

An example of that is Brannstrom not being a strong skater was repeated for a few years and this past year we heard the team brass refer to him as a terrific skater several times.

DeBrincat isn't a line driver. DeBrincat played most of the year with a rookie centre who's strength is likely never going to be dishing the puck and with a guy that spoke openly about struggling to regain form from an ankle injury. What exactly do you expect him to do in that scenario? For starters it's typically the center that drives a line, certainly more often than not it's the centre. That line struggled all year in large part because of the rookie centre and because Batherson wasn't fully up to speed.

DeBrincat has scored the 14th most goals in the NHL over the last 6 years. 6 years! This isn't a one hit wonder. This is a pattern. And of the 13 guys that scored more than him, 7 were centers. Unless they change the rules to something other than most goals wins, teams will want to acquire DeBrincat.

You see I agree with this. If only there was someone in our organization that could have changed this. Maybe play the elite goalscorer with at least one of our elite playmakers (Giroux or Stü)? No idea who might be responsible for these kinds of things though.

 

[Beech]

You put up 90, you see 9/10 million, and that’s only going to go up.

Brady’s contract as soon as next year will be equivalent to ~9 million adjusted. By 2025 it will likely be higher.

The Sens aren’t going to be signing anyone higher, because they likely can’t attract them. They want to set a limit of Tkachuk and Stutzle, that’s perfectly fine. But that line of thinking is going to lead to getting burned like we just did with DBC, because players like him can, and will, ask for what they have garnered though their previous shorter contracts taking them to UFA, and that is a contract that is much different than an ELC contract signed years prior.

Yes, to line 1,, under normal circumstance, a 90 point player should receive 9 or 10 M
yes to line 2..Brady's performance should be rewarded with a 9 M contract

so if all contracts floated and corrected at season's end. Brady and Tim would each get 800 K to 1.7 M more money

But they do not. Their contracts are fixed.

So regardless of what "the adjusted values" dictate. It is the real value that governs.

Brady and TIM will spend 5 more and 8 more years staring at 8.2 and 8.3 M in salaries. They will then stare at other players coming by, both on their own teams and elsewhere and go past them salary wise, yet not approach them performance wise.

You are saying; hey that is how it works... I am saying, tell that to Tim and Brady. And let us see how happy they are. And let us see if that un-happiness results in poor play or a request for a trade.

It may not. Tim and Brady may be okay.. I hope so. Because as of today, Tim Stutzle recorded a 90 point season in 78 games. That is 96 points in 82 games. That would have ranked him 14th in league scoring. His contract for next year will be 51st as of now.. will most likely drop to mid 60's by the time the summer is over.

by 2030/2031. He will be 29 years old. He will most likely have spent the last 9 seasons all told being 90 -100 points (possibly more if scoring continues to go up). Will most likely be consistently in the top 15 in league scoring. And will by the end of his contract be around 150th best paid.

Brady T, will be broken down because of his physical play (Hello Jon Toews) and I doubt a lucrative contract is waiting for him at 29.. Let us see how happy he is in 2-3 years time when he is now the 3rd to 4th best paid player on the Sens and by contract end the 5th or 6th. And he more or less gave up his career for the team.

Once the lights go off for Tim and Brady... Let us see if their agents are calling the Sens..

the Sens cannot control teh outside world. they can control their own.

 

[Micklebot]

Cat scored those goals with one of the best playmakers of our generation. Kane is also a line driving winger who elevates everyone around him (offensively at least). To anyone acquiring Cat, how many of those teams have a playmaker of that calibre? Kucherov, Rantanen, Kaprizov, Panarin, Marner, Connor, Gaudreau, Robertson, etc... These are all line driving players. Centres aren't always the ones that drive play, it depends on the players you have and their strengths.

Cat certainly has value signed at 8 years, but he is a luxury/complimentary piece for almost every team acquiring him, except Detroit who is starved for top 6 forwards.

There's a lot of space between rookie Pinto and Kane, I'm pretty sure that while he may not score as much as with prime Kane, he can bridge the gap with the average top 6 center.

 

[bicboi64]

There's a lot of space between rookie Pinto and Kane, I'm pretty sure that while he may not score as much as with prime Kane, he can bridge the gap with the average top 6 center.

Valid point, but if Cat with an average top 6 centre play make isn't a 40g threat, he's the equivalent of Phil Kessel when the Leafs traded him to the Pens in terms of production. A legitimate top 6 forward who's probably a 1st line winger on many teams, but not someone you want to necessary rely on to get your line going.

My main point is simply we might need to modify our expectations of what a signed Cat nets us in a trade. It will be more along the lines of a mid-first rounder, decent prospect, and a roster player to make cap work instead of anything close to what we gave up for him.

 

[BondraTime]

Yes, to line 1,, under normal circumstance, a 90 point player should receive 9 or 10 M
yes to line 2..Brady's performance should be rewarded with a 9 M contract

so if all contracts floated and corrected at season's end. Brady and Tim would each get 800 K to 1.7 M more money

But they do not. Their contracts are fixed.

So regardless of what "the adjusted values" dictate. It is the real value that governs.

Brady and TIM will spend 5 more and 8 more years staring at 8.2 and 8.3 M in salaries. They will then stare at other players coming by, both on their own teams and elsewhere and go past them salary wise, yet not approach them performance wise.

You are saying; hey that is how it works... I am saying, tell that to Tim and Brady. And let us see how happy they are. And let us see if that un-happiness results in poor play or a request for a trade.

It may not. Tim and Brady may be okay.. I hope so. Because as of today, Tim Stutzle recorded a 90 point season in 72 games. That is 96 points in 82 games. That would have ranked him 14th in league scoring. His contract for next year will be 51st as of now.. will most likely drop to mid 60's by the time the summer is over.

by 2030/2031. He will be 29 years old. He will most likely have spent the last 9 seasons all told being 90 -100 points (possibly more if scoring continues to go up). Will most likely be consistently in the top 15 in league scoring. And will by the end of his contract be around 150th best paid.

Brady T, will be broken down because of his physical play (Hello Jon Toews) and I doubt a lucrative contract is waiting for him at 29.. Let us see how happy he is in 2-3 years time when he is now the 3rd to 4th best paid player on the Sens and by contract end the 5th or 6th. And he more or less gave up his career for the team.

Once the lights go off for Tim and Brady... Let us see if their agents are calling the Sens..

the Sens cannot control teh outside world. they can control their own.

You quite literally just described what an ELC contract vs. a UFA contract is, and the sacrifices that come with signing for a perceived high amount before breaking out, IE both Tkachuk and Stutzle. DBC, like others that made it to UFA, sacrificed a TON of money to get to the UFA stage.

I'm sure Brad Marchand understands that he signed a deal early to get a guaranteed contract worth a very large sum of money, even though less than 6 months later, similar to Brady and Stutzle, he would have earned an extra 2+ million per year. That didn't stop the Bruins from bringing in over a dozen guys over the duration of the contract that make more than Marchand, even though he's been the face of their team and best player for the better part of the last 10 years.

It's an understood, and very obviously accepted, contractual understanding

 

[JackieDaytona]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that a 7th overall (plus 2nd & 3rd) wasn't significant value to give up.



I didn't say anything about what we could expect as a return in a trade, so I'm not sure why you are mentioning this in a reply to my post?

I’m not sure where In my post I said that wasn’t valuable? Just the opposite, a 7th overall is a huge piece and you rarely see them traded.

I only replied to your post to clarify the 1 year vs 2 year thing. I think we’re on the same page with the rest of it.

 

[UglyPuckling]

I’m not sure where In my post I said that wasn’t valuable? Just the opposite, a 7th overall is a huge piece and you rarely see them traded.

I only replied to your post to clarify the 1 year vs 2 year thing. I think we’re on the same page with the rest of it.

I guess the part of your post I focused on was this: "vs what the team gave up for him". If you are agreeing that 7th overalls have good value, then yes, we are closer in our thinking to each other on this debate.

But, I think the point of whether this was still good given the high likelihood of this being one year of Debrincat is probably where the differences of opinion stem from. You can call it 2 years if you want, but I'd add the words "with a strong chance of being one year." I really don't care how they got there, just that it got there (one year) in the end.

Having said all that, there's still missing info namely what assets will be returned if/when Debrincat is traded. There's still another important shoe to drop here yet.

 

[Beech]

You quite literally just described what an ELC contract vs. a UFA contract is, and the sacrifices that come with signing for a perceived high amount before breaking out, IE both Tkachuk and Stutzle.

I'm sure Brad Marchand understands that he signed a deal early to get a guaranteed contract worth a very large sum of money, even though less than 6 months later, similar to Brady and Stutzle, he would have earned an extra 2+ million per year. That didn't stop the Bruins from bringing in over a dozen guys over the duration of the contract that make more than Marchand, even though he's been the face of their team and best player for the better part of the last 10 years.

It's an understood, and very obviously accepted, contractual understanding

would love to have a beer with Brad and talk to him. I would love to sit (behind a glass enclosure) and ask him; Brad you left 2 M a year on the table. that is 16 M. after taxes and expenses 7 M.. are you okay? that 7 M is 400 K a year in investment return... a Ferrari every 2 years for the rest of your life.

as for him watching other Bruins go by. Who? I believe that as a forward, he has been consistently a top 3/4 salary earner from the day he signed his 8 year deal.. he Bergeron and Pasternak.. for a few years early on David K. But he signed earlier than Brad

The Bruins are no fools.. their salaries have been: Bergeron, Marchand, Pasternak and Krejci in mixed order over the last 6-7 years (at forward). No 60 point guy has jumped in with big dollar and jumped those guys... the Bruins have respected the "Bergeron" salary cap for a decade now. Pasternak only got his money when Bergeron was finished.

It is lightly understood as in; I get I am leaving a few bucks on the table... reason one my security...but here are the conditions.
1) use these to help the team fill depth..below me. Defense, goalie
2) do not use the money to have some guy jump me in salary, but be below me in performance

 

[JackieDaytona]

I guess the part of your post I focused on was this: "vs what the team gave up for him". If you are agreeing that 7th overalls have good value, then yes, we are closer in our thinking to each other on this debate.

But, I think the point of whether this was still good given the high likelihood of this being one year of Debrincat is probably where the differences of opinion stem from. You can call it 2 years if you want, but I'd add the words "with a strong chance of being one year." I really don't care how they got there, just that it got there (one year) in the end.

Having said all that, there's still missing info namely what assets will be returned if/when Debrincat is traded. There's still another important shoe to drop here yet.

Yep fair enough. I agree.

I’m actually ok with trading valuable assets for great young players that fit with the team, I was not upset at all with the trade and still see it as a good risk to take for a gm. That said, it would be a whole hell of a lot better if he’d done his due diligence to ensure the asset investment meant a long term addition to the team rather than 2 (or 1 )years.

Now it’s on dorion to ensure he gets a decent return on the asset he acquired - as you say that’s the important shoe to drop and how I will judge Dorion on this whole chain of asset management and trades when it’s all said and done. He’s dropped the ball before (duchene, stone) I hope he’s learned his lessons and does better with this one.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Yes, to line 1,, under normal circumstance, a 90 point player should receive 9 or 10 M
yes to line 2..Brady's performance should be rewarded with a 9 M contract

so if all contracts floated and corrected at season's end. Brady and Tim would each get 800 K to 1.7 M more money

But they do not. Their contracts are fixed.

So regardless of what "the adjusted values" dictate. It is the real value that governs.

Brady and TIM will spend 5 more and 8 more years staring at 8.2 and 8.3 M in salaries. They will then stare at other players coming by, both on their own teams and elsewhere and go past them salary wise, yet not approach them performance wise.

You are saying; hey that is how it works... I am saying, tell that to Tim and Brady. And let us see how happy they are. And let us see if that un-happiness results in poor play or a request for a trade.

It may not. Tim and Brady may be okay.. I hope so. Because as of today, Tim Stutzle recorded a 90 point season in 72 games. That is 96 points in 82 games. That would have ranked him 14th in league scoring. His contract for next year will be 51st as of now.. will most likely drop to mid 60's by the time the summer is over.

by 2030/2031. He will be 29 years old. He will most likely have spent the last 9 seasons all told being 90 -100 points (possibly more if scoring continues to go up). Will most likely be consistently in the top 15 in league scoring. And will by the end of his contract be around 150th best paid.

Brady T, will be broken down because of his physical play (Hello Jon Toews) and I doubt a lucrative contract is waiting for him at 29.. Let us see how happy he is in 2-3 years time when he is now the 3rd to 4th best paid player on the Sens and by contract end the 5th or 6th. And he more or less gave up his career for the team.

Once the lights go off for Tim and Brady... Let us see if their agents are calling the Sens..

the Sens cannot control teh outside world. they can control their own.

That's what happens when you sign a long term contract. You get security. If they both start being injury prone they still get their $8 schmill. They understand that. And both get money early on which will start earning money right away.

Now if the team continues to flounder then they might see their careers wasting away. Nothing to do with money. This happens all the time and rarely do this guys that signed 8 year deals ask out.

 

[Beech]

That's what happens when you sign a long term contract. You get security. If they both start being injury prone they still get their $8 schmill. They understand that. And both get money early on which will start earning money right away.

Now if the team continues to flounder then they might see their careers wasting away. Nothing to do with money. This happens all the time and rarely do this guys that signed 8 year deals ask out.

a different debate Alf.

the security is well understood.. read 3758.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

a different debate Alf.

the security is well understood.. read 3758.

BUt you pay for that security by signing a contract that means you probably will have left some money on the table. There is risk to both sides and if you think Brady and Tim (or at least their agents) didn't understand that, then I don't know what to tell you. Both agreed to the terms. The team did it because, yeah, these guys might be a bargain down the road. The players do it because no matter what happens they are set for life.

 

[Beech]

BUt you pay for that security by signing a contract that means you probably will have left some money on the table. There is risk to both sides and if you think Brady and Tim (or at least their agents) didn't understand that, then I don't know what to tell you. Both agreed to the terms. The team did it because, yeah, these guys might be a bargain down the road. The players do it because no matter what happens they are set for life.

yup.. I don't argue that... this debate is now 3 days old and 100 posts.

the question is: as a team, do you offer more money to players, whose performance is less than Tim and Brady?

do you effectively use time and the rise in cap as a means to jump tiers? Do you allow a second liner to be paid more than a 1st liner.. simply because he is later in time when the cap has gone up.

my answer is no... nothing should allow a jump in tier.. that within anyone tier, time allows for an escalation in salaries, but not across tiers.

and so all boats rise with the tide.. not some, but not others. Those that signed contracts at earlier dates and/or low dollar contracts in foolish fashion. Have to a large extent, set the bar!!! and you must wait until those contracts become close to ending before you raise all ships.. thinks of the Rideau locks.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Yes, to line 1,, under normal circumstance, a 90 point player should receive 9 or 10 M
yes to line 2..Brady's performance should be rewarded with a 9 M contract

so if all contracts floated and corrected at season's end. Brady and Tim would each get 800 K to 1.7 M more money

But they do not. Their contracts are fixed.

So regardless of what "the adjusted values" dictate. It is the real value that governs.

Brady and TIM will spend 5 more and 8 more years staring at 8.2 and 8.3 M in salaries. They will then stare at other players coming by, both on their own teams and elsewhere and go past them salary wise, yet not approach them performance wise.

You are saying; hey that is how it works... I am saying, tell that to Tim and Brady. And let us see how happy they are. And let us see if that un-happiness results in poor play or a request for a trade.

It may not. Tim and Brady may be okay.. I hope so. Because as of today, Tim Stutzle recorded a 90 point season in 72 games. That is 96 points in 82 games. That would have ranked him 14th in league scoring. His contract for next year will be 51st as of now.. will most likely drop to mid 60's by the time the summer is over.

by 2030/2031. He will be 29 years old. He will most likely have spent the last 9 seasons all told being 90 -100 points (possibly more if scoring continues to go up). Will most likely be consistently in the top 15 in league scoring. And will by the end of his contract be around 150th best paid.

Brady T, will be broken down because of his physical play (Hello Jon Toews) and I doubt a lucrative contract is waiting for him at 29.. Let us see how happy he is in 2-3 years time when he is now the 3rd to 4th best paid player on the Sens and by contract end the 5th or 6th. And he more or less gave up his career for the team.

Once the lights go off for Tim and Brady... Let us see if their agents are calling the Sens..

the Sens cannot control teh outside world. they can control their own.

Tim played 78 games last year.

 

[Beech]

Tim played 78 games last year.

yup, typo.

if you look at the corrected point value of 96, you would realize that the math was based upon it.

 

[Golden_Jet]

yup, typo.

if you look at the corrected point value of 96, you would realize that the math was based upon it.

Actually a little under 95. But get your point.

 

[Nova Stutzlia]

Cat has gotten a fair bit of criticism for only getting 27 goals because he didn't have Kane setting him up.
But what doesn't get mentioned is that Kane only had 57 points in 73 games, after having 92 in 78 game the season before.
So, obviously, Kane was missing Cat as well.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I am catching up listening now. I'd rather have Berggren than Zadina personally.

 

[BondraTime]

I am catching up listening now. I'd rather have Berggren than Zadina personally.

Don’t think we were ever going to get a significant roster player, those trading for DBC will want to be trading future packages, just like Ottawa did a year ago.

Certainly hope for better than Zadina, but that’s the type of guy I’ve been expecting.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Don’t think we were ever going to get a significant roster player, those trading for DBC will want to be trading future packages, just like Ottawa did a year ago.

Certainly hope for better than Zadina, but that’s the type of guy I’ve been expecting.

If it’s Zadina, then tell SY , there is no deal

 

[BondraTime]

If it’s Zadina, then tell SY , there is no deal

Absolutely, which I will assume will be what happens. If he goes to the Wings, I think they will both settle for Berggren + 17 or a combo of their 2nds.

Roster player wise from the Wings, I think Berggren is as good as we can do.

 

[Boud]

Absolutely, which I will assume will be what happens. If he goes to the Wings, I think they will both settle for Berggren + 17 or a combo of their 2nds.

Roster player wise from the Wings, I think Berggren is as good as we can do.

Berggren would be a solid addition. My expectations aren't that high, I even doubt we could get him. I just hope we can do better than Kubalik. Not that he's a bad player but his contractual situation is less than optimal for us.

If we can pry Rasmussen or even Soderblom with the 17th I'd be happy. Berggren has what it takes to be a top 6 guy for years to come. That would be a win in my books

 

[Senscore]

Surely someone else will beat a Zadina offer.

The guy is practically future considerations at this point.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I'd be happy with Berggren + 17th, but I doubt both of those assets get moved.

Berggren looks like a future top 6 forward. Very talented young player.

 

[bicboi64]

I'd be down for Berggren + 17th, but would want Zadina as well. Let Stu or Brady help that bust break out