Player Discussion Alex DeBrincat

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Exactly why he know that he can have this money here. Me I would be fine if he would be paid close to 9. This year will be tight but other years will be fine
The money may be available. But at 9 M, you jump over Tim Stutzle and Brady T. That will not sit well with 2 guys that will lead your team in scoring the next 5 years.

And once DBC gets 9, Pinto, Greig and others who follow, may ask for 7's and 8's.. SO now you run out of money and you get close to Brady and Tim.

so imagine in 2 years:

DBC 9
Tim 8.3
Brady 8.3
Norris 7.9
Greig ~ 7
Pinto ~ 6

Dbc and Norris ~ 60 points, Pinto and Greig ~ 50 points..............Tim and Brady ~ 100 points. DO you want Tim and Brady to stare at a stats sheet, see their 100 points, his 60 and see their 8.2 M to his 9 M.
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The money may be available. But at 9 M, you jump over Tim Stutzle and Brady T. That will not sit well with 2 guys that will lead your team in scoring the next 5 years.

And once DBC gets 9, Pinto, Greig and others who follow, may ask for 7's and 8's.. SO now you run out of money and you get close to Brady and Tim.

so imagine in 2 years:

DBC 9
Tim 8.3
Brady 8.3
Norris 7.9
Greig ~ 7
Pinto ~ 6

Dbc and Norris ~ 60 points, Pinto and Greig ~ 50 points..............Tim and Brady ~ 100 points. DO you want Tim and Brady to stare at a stats sheet, see their 100 points, his 60 and see their 8.2 M to his 9 M.
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I think they will understand. The contract of DeBrincat would buy more ufa year and the contract would have be sign more recently
 
I think they will understand. The contract of DeBrincat would buy more ufa year and the contract would have be sign more recently
would you?

Say you are Brady T.. team capatin, heart and soul.. busy man going everywhere on behalf of the team.. hard playing... Body checks, fighting.

90 point season earned with blood. 8.2 M

DBC... 60 points, no fighting, no body checks, no back checking... 9 M

OUCH.. I know, I wouldn't it.
 
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would you?

Say you are Brady T.. team capatin, heart and soul.. busy man going everywhere on behalf of the team.. hard playing... Body checks, fighting.

90 point season earned with blood. 8.2 M

DBC... 60 points, no fighting, no body checks, no back checking... 9 M

OUCH.. I know, I wouldn't it.
They’re completely different contracts, and Brady wasn’t a 80 point guy when signed, so that’s a completely moot point.

There’s a reason ELC players sign for less than UFA players.

Guys signing long term at 20 years old understand guys signing as UFA’s will get better contracts. That’s legitimately how it works.
 
They’re completely different contracts, and Brady wasn’t a 80 point guy when signed, so that’s a completely moot point.

There’s a reason ELC players sign for less than UFA players.

Guys signing long term at 20 years old understand guys signing as UFA’s will get better contracts. That’s legitimately how it works.
if you are comparing apples to apples.

let us say Pinto becomes a new Brady, bulks up, fights more, is robust and feisty and scores 80 points.. yea, as he is down the line, he gets more money. similarly for nay free agent they sign.

If Greig becomes a 90 point man.. similarly for a free agent.. then same as above.

the CAT????.... who cares about UFA, RFA or otherwise... his performance has to be similar to theirs, if his contract is going to jump theirs..

for the next 5 years, no one better walk through the doors as a free agent or as an in-house signed player that end up making more money than Tim and Brady and is not "very close to them" in terms of performance...
 
if you are comparing apples to apples.

let us say Pinto becomes a new Brady, bulks up, fights more, is robust and feisty and scores 80 points.. yea, as he is down the line, he gets more money. similarly for nay free agent they sign.

If Greig becomes a 90 point man.. similarly for a free agent.. then same as above.

the CAT????.... who cares about UFA, RFA or otherwise... his performance has to be similar to theirs, if his contract is going to jump theirs..

for the next 5 years, no one better walk through the doors as a free agent or as an in-house signed player that end up making more money than Tim and Brady and is not "very close to them" in terms of performance...
Well that’s a reason tht the Sens will never get a premium, sought after UFA, or even be able to sign their own guys like DBC, because that line of thinking is ignoring the vast, vast, vast precedents set through the past 20 years of ELC and UFA signings in the cap era.

Guys like Kevin Hayes get contracts worth what is the equivalent of an 8 million dollar contract today with a career high of 55 points, because that’s what making it to UFA does.
 
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Well that’s a reason tht the Sens will never get a premium, sought after UFA, or even be able to sign their own guys like DBC, because that line of thinking is ignoring the vast, vast, vast precedents set through the past 20 years of ELC and UFA signings in the cap era.
Look at TO..

In came Tavares. Overnight, Mathews jumped him and Marner bumped up against him.. The LEAFS weren't idiots... do not pay anyone more than your stars.... who cares where the stars come from, they must be your stars.

if you do pay UFA or RFAs or FA more... good luck... watch harmony in that locker room.

Kyprios spoke about it years ago on his hockey central at noon.. Locker rooms are abscessed with who makes what..

the Sens can sign FAs.. those FAs better be close to or better performing than Brady and Tim.. and even then, it is relative.. in 2 years, some guy putting up 90 points and finishes 5 behind Tim, better not be making 11 M. If he is going to be making 11, he better finish at 5 points ahead of him.
 
Look at TO..

In came Tavares. Overnight, Mathews jumped him and Marner bumped up against him.. The LEAFS weren't idiots... do not pay anyone more than your stars.... who cares where the stars come from, they must be your stars.

if you do pay UFA or RFAs or FA more... good luck... watch harmony in that locker room.

Kyprios spoke about it years ago on his hockey central at noon.. Locker rooms are abscessed with who makes what..

the Sens can sign FAs.. those FAs better be close to or better performing than Brady and Tim.. and even then, it is relative.. in 2 years, some guy putting up 90 points and finishes 5 behind Tim, better not be making 11 M. If he is going to be making 11, he better finish at 5 points ahead of him.
Again, just completely ignoring how ELC and UFA contracts work.
 
Again, just completely ignoring how ELC and UFA contracts work.
I am not.. but you are examining a world that is on paper and not in human dealings.

if we dismiss players having "off seasons".. how many teams have newly (over the last 3-4 years) signed an FA or UFA/RFA's that are not their stars? ( as in became their stars..if their contract was a high value one)

How many teams will ever bring in a player, and pay him more than their stars... KNOWINGLY knowing that he is a lesser player? Now, you may sign a guy assuming X amount of points, or robustness and he does not deliver, okay.. but Knowingly.

The Sens had better be 100% certain that DBC ends up being an 40 goal, 40 assist +20 player.. or giving him or anyone else 9 M? NO, who cares about what is in theory.

The cap could hit a 100 M.

the real player cap is now Brady and Tim.. one is a point getter, smooth skater. The other is a point getter, robust guy. Both at 8.3 M

you now have you reference points... be above them dollar wise, you better be close too or above, productivity wise.. Otherwise, below them.
 
I think you are right and have framed the concept or principle correctly.

But let's take a devil's advocate approach to this and look at from the perspective of the potential suitor GMs.

In your example with three teams, would those GMs just bid a little lower in the initial phase thinking that their goal is to not overpay and to bid just enough to secure discussions with the Debrincat camp? And, if Dorion knows it's better to get a bidding war going, would he not be inclined to allow all those three teams to speak with the Debrincat camp? I mean Dorion could potentially eliminate a low ball bidder using the technique being described. But, I got to think the other GMs are going to be smart enough to think about a good strategy on how to play this situation, and that Dorion cannot be too restrictive because there's risk not having enough potential bidders for Debrincat's services. But in the end, if the GMs who are interested are smart & play their cards correctly, you kind of end up in the same place you would ultimately without this process.

Anyhow, I think I'm just interested in the process and bouncing ideas around (thinking out loud) because of that interest. I haven't really formulated any set in stone type ideas on this, but find it kind of fascinating.
For sure, I find the discussions about how a GM goes about their job super interesting too, especially in these types of situations where there's a significant roster player potentially getting moved and the GM has to carefully navigate in negotiations to get the most value for his asset. I'm not going to pretend to know the inner workings of the front office for these types of negotiations because I really don't, but my take on how Dorion would proceed is this:

1) Dorion would set an internal deadline to field offers from interested teams. I would assume that he would want a pick or picks in this year's draft as part of the return, so let's say he would set a deadline for 3 days prior to the draft to receive offers and negotiate trades with other teams.

2) During the period before the internal deadline, Dorion is using all usual negotiating tactics as he would in any other trade. Pitting offers against each other to try to create a bidding war, making pitches to get teams to increase their offers, etc. That's part of his job as GM and his skill in handling these talks will determine the strength of offers he ends up with.

3) Once we get to the internal deadline that was set, Dorion reviews his options and chooses all of the tabled offers that he would be willing to accept if they were final offers for a signed DeBrincat. Let's say that there were 5 serious offers submitted and Dorion has 3 of them that he really likes and would accept. Dorion then goes to those 3 teams and let's them know that they have a deal in place, they draw up the paperwork so that it's ready to go but nothing official sent to the league yet.

4) The 3 teams with an accepted trade offer (let's say Detroit, Dallas, Carolina to keep with my previous example) now get to move on to the next stage of the process. With an accepted trade offer now in place, Dorion all at once grants permission to Detroit, Dallas and Carolina to speak with Cat and his agent. These three teams now enter into a UFA style negotiation with Cat's camp on a new contract.

5) The 3 teams fight amongst themselves over the next couple of days to iron out a new contract with DeBrincat. Ottawa doesn't really care about this part other than it getting done in a timely manner so that the accepted trade can get processed before the draft. As in the example of my earlier post, if Cat prices himself out for Carolina and Carolina is no longer interested, Dorion was still able to use Carolina's trade offer in the earlier stages of the process to leverage Detroit and Dallas into submitting offers that he would accept in a trade.

Using the accepted trade offer as the condition to be allowed to speak with Cat's representatives ensures that Ottawa would receive an interested team's best offer. If an interested GM bid a bit too low to try and secure themselves a better deal, they get eliminated from the process and never make it to the stage of trying to talk with DeBrincat about a new contract.

I follow the NFL quite a bit too and I remember from the Deshaun Watson trade that Houston had accepted trade offers with 4 teams that Watson was willing to waive his NTC for. IIRC the accepted trade were with the Browns, Panthers, Saints and Falcons. Then for about a week, the 4 teams courted Watson, brought him in for visits to their team facilities, negotiated with him, etc just like they would for other big-name free agents. Watson ended up taking the contract that the Browns offered him which led to Houston making the Browns trade official over the other 3.
 
Maybe I misunderstood. Dorion is not letting them talk about an extension before finalizing a trade?

If that's the case, I don't get it. A signed player is better for value than an question mark imo.
before "agreeing with the other team on the players/picks/prospects that Ottawa would receive if Debrincat were to reach agreement with that other team on a contract extension."
 
For sure, I find the discussions about how a GM goes about their job super interesting too, especially in these types of situations where there's a significant roster player potentially getting moved and the GM has to carefully navigate in negotiations to get the most value for his asset. I'm not going to pretend to know the inner workings of the front office for these types of negotiations because I really don't, but my take on how Dorion would proceed is this:

1) Dorion would set an internal deadline to field offers from interested teams. I would assume that he would want a pick or picks in this year's draft as part of the return, so let's say he would set a deadline for 3 days prior to the draft to receive offers and negotiate trades with other teams.

2) During the period before the internal deadline, Dorion is using all usual negotiating tactics as he would in any other trade. Pitting offers against each other to try to create a bidding war, making pitches to get teams to increase their offers, etc. That's part of his job as GM and his skill in handling these talks will determine the strength of offers he ends up with.

3) Once we get to the internal deadline that was set, Dorion reviews his options and chooses all of the tabled offers that he would be willing to accept if they were final offers for a signed DeBrincat. Let's say that there were 5 serious offers submitted and Dorion has 3 of them that he really likes and would accept. Dorion then goes to those 3 teams and let's them know that they have a deal in place, they draw up the paperwork so that it's ready to go but nothing official sent to the league yet.

4) The 3 teams with an accepted trade offer (let's say Detroit, Dallas, Carolina to keep with my previous example) now get to move on to the next stage of the process. With an accepted trade offer now in place, Dorion all at once grants permission to Detroit, Dallas and Carolina to speak with Cat and his agent. These three teams now enter into a UFA style negotiation with Cat's camp on a new contract.

5) The 3 teams fight amongst themselves over the next couple of days to iron out a new contract with DeBrincat. Ottawa doesn't really care about this part other than it getting done in a timely manner so that the accepted trade can get processed before the draft. As in the example of my earlier post, if Cat prices himself out for Carolina and Carolina is no longer interested, Dorion was still able to use Carolina's trade offer in the earlier stages of the process to leverage Detroit and Dallas into submitting offers that he would accept in a trade.

Using the accepted trade offer as the condition to be allowed to speak with Cat's representatives ensures that Ottawa would receive an interested team's best offer. If an interested GM bid a bit too low to try and secure themselves a better deal, they get eliminated from the process and never make it to the stage of trying to talk with DeBrincat about a new contract.

I follow the NFL quite a bit too and I remember from the Deshaun Watson trade that Houston had accepted trade offers with 4 teams that Watson was willing to waive his NTC for. IIRC the accepted trade were with the Browns, Panthers, Saints and Falcons. Then for about a week, the 4 teams courted Watson, brought him in for visits to their team facilities, negotiated with him, etc just like they would for other big-name free agents. Watson ended up taking the contract that the Browns offered him which led to Houston making the Browns trade official over the other 3.
With respect to point 4), I think the GM would select one best offer and then permit Debrincat and his agent to negotiate with that single team for X days. If Debrincat and his agent could not agree on a contract extension within that period of time, then the GM would select his second best offer and proceed in the same way.
 
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With respect to point 4), I think the GM would select one best offer and then permit Debrincat and his agent to negotiate with that single team for X days. If Debrincat and his agent could not agree on a contract extension within that period of time, then the GM would select his second best offer and proceed in the same way.

Agreed. The whole idea is to limit the player's control. Otherwise Dorion isn't getting the best offer for the Sens, he's getting the offer from the team that's making the best offer to DeBrincat.
 
before "agreeing with the other team on the players/picks/prospects that Ottawa would receive if Debrincat were to reach agreement with that other team on a contract extension."
I assume Dorion is smart enough to only deal with team's on his ok list for an extension. I'd like there to be a bidding war though
 
Yeah, DBC can’t make more than Brady or Stu. Stu just signed his deal as well.
Debincat’s deal is going to eat up 7 UFA years. Stützle and Brady’s is only a few.

Debrincat also has the pedigree Stützle and Brady didn’t have. Two 40 goal years
 
I assume Dorion is smart enough to only deal with team's on his ok list for an extension. I'd like there to be a bidding war though
I would not limit myself to the teams on Debrincat's list. If I could get a better offer from another team, I would let Debrincat talk to that team first for X days. That team might make a great offer that could overcome any preferences that Debrincat might have.
 
I would not limit myself to the teams on Debrincat's list. If I could get a better offer from another team, I would let Debrincat talk to that team first for X days. That team might make a great offer that could overcome any preferences that Debrincat might have.
Probably a waste of time to be honest. He gave a list for a reason, but if time is not a concern, then sure
 
Debincat’s deal is going to eat up 7 UFA years. Stützle and Brady’s is only a few.

Debrincat also has the pedigree Stützle and Brady didn’t have. Two 40 goal years
I get it, I just don’t see the team giving DBC more than either of those two because they are better players, and also far more important players.

Some team will perhaps, but I like the internal contract situation at the moment. I’d prefer to see a better player making more to be honest, and I like DBC.
 
Probably a waste of time to be honest. He gave a list for a reason, but if time is not a concern, then sure
We have seen some surprising trades in the past where a team really wanted a player who most thought would never go to that city and team. If the best offer was from a team not on Debrincat's desired list, I would definitely try to make that trade. Might be a waste of time, but time is cheap.
 
For sure, I find the discussions about how a GM goes about their job super interesting too, especially in these types of situations where there's a significant roster player potentially getting moved and the GM has to carefully navigate in negotiations to get the most value for his asset. I'm not going to pretend to know the inner workings of the front office for these types of negotiations because I really don't, but my take on how Dorion would proceed is this:

1) Dorion would set an internal deadline to field offers from interested teams. I would assume that he would want a pick or picks in this year's draft as part of the return, so let's say he would set a deadline for 3 days prior to the draft to receive offers and negotiate trades with other teams.

2) During the period before the internal deadline, Dorion is using all usual negotiating tactics as he would in any other trade. Pitting offers against each other to try to create a bidding war, making pitches to get teams to increase their offers, etc. That's part of his job as GM and his skill in handling these talks will determine the strength of offers he ends up with.

3) Once we get to the internal deadline that was set, Dorion reviews his options and chooses all of the tabled offers that he would be willing to accept if they were final offers for a signed DeBrincat. Let's say that there were 5 serious offers submitted and Dorion has 3 of them that he really likes and would accept. Dorion then goes to those 3 teams and let's them know that they have a deal in place, they draw up the paperwork so that it's ready to go but nothing official sent to the league yet.

4) The 3 teams with an accepted trade offer (let's say Detroit, Dallas, Carolina to keep with my previous example) now get to move on to the next stage of the process. With an accepted trade offer now in place, Dorion all at once grants permission to Detroit, Dallas and Carolina to speak with Cat and his agent. These three teams now enter into a UFA style negotiation with Cat's camp on a new contract.

5) The 3 teams fight amongst themselves over the next couple of days to iron out a new contract with DeBrincat. Ottawa doesn't really care about this part other than it getting done in a timely manner so that the accepted trade can get processed before the draft. As in the example of my earlier post, if Cat prices himself out for Carolina and Carolina is no longer interested, Dorion was still able to use Carolina's trade offer in the earlier stages of the process to leverage Detroit and Dallas into submitting offers that he would accept in a trade.

Using the accepted trade offer as the condition to be allowed to speak with Cat's representatives ensures that Ottawa would receive an interested team's best offer. If an interested GM bid a bit too low to try and secure themselves a better deal, they get eliminated from the process and never make it to the stage of trying to talk with DeBrincat about a new contract.

I follow the NFL quite a bit too and I remember from the Deshaun Watson trade that Houston had accepted trade offers with 4 teams that Watson was willing to waive his NTC for. IIRC the accepted trade were with the Browns, Panthers, Saints and Falcons. Then for about a week, the 4 teams courted Watson, brought him in for visits to their team facilities, negotiated with him, etc just like they would for other big-name free agents. Watson ended up taking the contract that the Browns offered him which led to Houston making the Browns trade official over the other 3.
I don't know the exact process either, but was just giving it a little thought. Your point 4 was the part I was thinking about mostly I guess. A GM might be able to screen out a low ball offer I suppose by structuring the process and not allowing teams to talk to the Debrincat camp until they provided an offer. But, I think it behooves Dorion to have multiple teams competing for his player. I think you're assuming really high interest and a lot of teams wanting the player. But teams have cap situations and there's typically more than one player available on the market. Teams are going to have to work within the constraints of their environment (cap situation, etc.) anyhow, and I'm not sure a good NFL quarterback and a NHL winger are exactly a good kind of comparison.

I guess we'll find out soon enough how all this works out. Hope for the best.
 
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Debincat’s deal is going to eat up 7 UFA years. Stützle and Brady’s is only a few.

Debrincat also has the pedigree Stützle and Brady didn’t have. Two 40 goal years

He has pedigree...but he's also a specialist. Cat doesn't drive a line, and he needs and elite playmaker with him and another winger who can go into the dirty areas and retrieve pucks for him for him to hit his high marks in goals. When you have to tailor your top two lines around him just to get the best out of a player...it's hard to have a really successful and cohesive team that way. Then to pay him a kings ransom on top of that? There are too many ways that can go sideways, and only one very narrow path where it works out, especially as a UFA contract.
 
UFAs are mostly crap

Alex if the money is available should be signed even if it means being the highest paid player


I think Brady and Jimmy only care about winning.
 
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Debincat’s deal is going to eat up 7 UFA years. Stützle and Brady’s is only a few.

Debrincat also has the pedigree Stützle and Brady didn’t have. Two 40 goal years

Two 40 goal years and also the shortened year he had 37 in 54 for a 50 goal pace.

I just really felt the need to add that…
 
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