Post-Game Talk: #3 - 10/07/18 | RANGERS @ hurricanes | 5:00 - MSG

[Levitate]

The Pionk hate on this website is down to one thing. Advanced stats.

Lets all just be up front about that.

I don't think the guy has been great, but I am perplexed at how anyone can watch these games, and pick him out as a problem with our defense. Was he even at fault for any goals yesterday?

It's not just advanced stats, and he's also not the major problem with the defense either, but why can't we criticize his game if we don't think it's good enough? I think I've articulated why I haven't been terribly impressed with him so far this season and it doesn't have to do with advanced stats. Yes, other D back there are also having issues and I'm only singling Pionk out because he's someone we expect to improve and be part of the "young D group" going forward. I'm not yet seeing some of the improvements I'd like to see and still see him playing over his head a bit much.

Is ada really high risk though? I don’t see him caught up ice ever. He and Skjei have looked great together when given the chance.

He seems more high risk in terms of willing to make some sketchier passes in his own end or long breakout passes.

In regards to the D and the vets...for one, Smith was signed when the general thought was still "Rangers are going to be competitive let's keep this train going". Last season was obviously a bust but I honestly think he can be an effective defenseman in this lineup for $4 mill. That's not that bad.

Staal is Staal, we know all about that.

Shattenkirk looked pretty good last season before getting injured. So far this season it's a mixed bag but he still seems to be getting back up to speed. I think we should probably cut him some slack for a bit before declaring him done and buried.

Going forward the Rangers will have to decide how to handle the lineup they have, how to move guys one way or another.

 

[NYR713]

The Pionk hate on this website is down to one thing. Advanced stats.

Lets all just be up front about that.

I don't think the guy has been great, but I am perplexed at how anyone can watch these games, and pick him out as a problem with our defense. Was he even at fault for any goals yesterday?

I'm with you here. The newer metrics are a nice tool to analyze deeper, but will never tell the whole story. I don't see Pionk nearly as bad as he's made out to be on the boards. He has some stuff to work on, but I'll take him over Staal and Shatty. I like the way he thinks the game, how he breaks up plays and actually uses his feet to get out of the D zone.

I think the other problem is that there is this Pionk vs ADA thing going on because of the amount of veterans in the way of playing time. I like both ADA and Pionk over just about any defenseman on the team except Skjei. But those that are big ADA fans think Pionk is starting over him so he must be trashed at all times to prove that is wrong. I'd rather say Shattenkirk and Staal are the ones blocking ADA and hoping that the coach was starting to see the light in last night's game.

Also, some others have mentioned Skjei ADA pairing and I'm in. Every time I saw them play together in the past, I thought they were like PB and J. While they both look to pinch or move up regularly, they seemed to understand that both of them had the ability so if one jumped in, one stays back.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

It's not just advanced stats, and he's also not the major problem with the defense either, but why can't we criticize his game if we don't think it's good enough? I think I've articulated why I haven't been terribly impressed with him so far this season and it doesn't have to do with advanced stats. Yes, other D back there are also having issues and I'm only singling Pionk out because he's someone we expect to improve and be part of the "young D group" going forward. I'm not yet seeing some of the improvements I'd like to see and still see him playing over his head a bit much.

I'm not talking about slight criticisms. I have them, the poster right above me who agreed with me has them. He's obviously no Dahlin and has a lot of things to work on, but he's far from a "problem" with our defense. A lot talk about him as if he's one of the bigger problems with our defense. One of the biggest issues here is that Pionk can't be treated as a young defensemen who is playing low minutes, and he's instead tasked with ridiculously tough usage carrying around a complete plug in a "shutdown" role.

There are posters who think Pionk should be in the AHL or they feel the need to insult him to prop up DeAngelo. Why can't they both play? We are a rebuilding team.

 

[RonaldNeptune]

Favorite thing I saw from ADA was how hard and accurate his passing is. It really showed on the PP. Very fast decision making as well.

I do like that he plays with an edge and has his teammates back without hesitation, but I think he needs to chill out and show a little more maturity and composure.

Bottom line he needs to be in the line up moving forward. I will seriously question Quinn if he doesn't.

 

[Levitate]

I'm not talking about slight criticisms. I have them, the poster right above me who agreed with me has them. He's obviously no Dahlin and has a lot of things to work on, but he's far from a "problem" with our defense. A lot talk about him as if he's one of the bigger problems with our defense. One of the biggest issues here is that Pionk can't be treated as a young defensemen who is playing low minutes, and he's instead tasked with ridiculously tough usage carrying around a complete plug in a "shutdown" role.

There are posters who think Pionk should be in the AHL or they feel the need to insult him to prop up DeAngelo. Why can't they both play? We are a rebuilding team.

Ok, gotcha. Yeah I'd agree to a lot of that, I think part of my criticism is how management and coaches seem to view him as this young guy who can handle the big minutes and tough usage and I don't think that he can. And yes there's a DeAngelo vs. Pionk thing going on that is unnecessary...they should both be playing

 

[NYR713]

Favorite thing I saw from ADA was how hard and accurate his passing is. It really showed on the PP. Very fast decision making as well.

I do like that he plays with an edge and has his teammates back without hesitation, but I think he needs to chill out and show a little more maturity and composure.

Bottom line he needs to be in the line up moving forward. I will seriously question Quinn if he doesn't.

And his shake-and-bake moves. He's flashy without overdoing it by trying to go through his legs or do too much. Keeps it simple and effective with the fake shots and fake passes opening up holes to get his shot through.

 

[Off Sides]

I think the only reason they can't just play all of Shattenkirk, ADA and Pionk on RD, is because McQuaid would have to move over or they'd have to play Claesson and it would bump Staal out, but in my mind that is pretty much the only thing they are going to end up doing at some point anyway.

Other than that, they can send Pionk down but it still does not solve who plays with Staal, which will probably be ADA.

 

[Mac n Gs]

That's just how Zucc plays...when he's scoring he's engaged and all over, when he's struggling he looks bad defensively, throws a lot of bad blind low percentage passes around, and struggles to make an impact. For as much crap as Kreider gets for being inconsistent, it's the same thing with Zuccarello.

He'll bounce back. I don't even think his first two games were bad, especially the first game, but not everyone just hits the ground running at the start of the season.

I'm hoping Quinn doesn't bench or demote Chytil yet. Guy looks like he can play at this level and the points will come as things settle down. And as you say, hopefully DeAngelo sticks in the lineup. Him finally getting some points last night was nice...and I love how he's the only D since McDonagh to actually try to open up shooting lanes by faking shots, moving around, etc.

edit: As for Pionk, I feel my frustration with his game is kind of like my frustration with Vesey. They're guys who are being told they're more talented than they are and they try to do a little too much on the ice. Like Vesey...even playing well he keeps doing some dumb **** because he's trying too hard. He'll make a good forechecking play, get the puck, skate it up the boards to the blueline and then lose it near the blueline because he'll try a no look dump back into the zone and the other team is waiting for that. He does this multiple times per game. Dude, just make the simple play a bit more often, you're not a top tier stick handler puck possession guy, stop trying to be one.

With Pionk, just dial the game back a bit dude. Stop trying to be everywhere and do everything. Play within yourself first, work out your positioning, then try to play a bit more aggressively once that part works. I feel like he's being sold as this "so skilled can do everything" defenseman and he's just not.

I'll give Zucc the benefit of the doubt, but I'm still expecting more from him this season. I don't see why Quinn would demote Chytil when he's been one of our better forwards to start the year. Yes, the TMM penalty was a poor read by him and completely his fault, but I don't think that's enough to earn him a seat. As long as he's still facilitating and being a beast along the boards, he'll be here to stay.

I'm willing to give Pionk a leash too, but I really need him to get away from Staal first. Those two just don't work well together and need to be split.

 

[Matt Rentfree]

I think the only reason they can't just play all of Shattenkirk, ADA and Pionk on RD, is because McQuaid would have to move over or they'd have to play Claesson and it would bump Staal out, but in my mind that is pretty much the only thing they are going to end up doing at some point anyway.

Other than that, they can send Pionk down but it still does not solve who plays with Staal, which will probably be ADA.

IMHO, Staal really should be #7

Lines should be

Skjei-ADA
Smith-Shatty
Claesson-Pionk or Claesson McQuaid when we play heavily physical teams.

 

[Levitate]

As others have said it's probably tough as a rookie head coach to bench a long standing vet this early in the season. There's some amount of building a raport and gaining the respect of the team and its veterans and I think when you have a guy like Staal who is the longest tenured player on the team not named Lundqvist, if you immediately bench him or demote him you lose some support in the locker room.

Further down the road in the season perhaps, or maybe as sad as it is we should be "hoping" for an inury that takes him out of the lineup for a bit. I dunno

 

[Off Sides]

IMHO, Staal really should be #7

Lines should be

Skjei-ADA
Smith-Shatty
Claesson-Pionk or Claesson McQuaid when we play heavily physical teams.

Whatever the pairs turn out to be, without Staal they at least look like it's them trying to develop both Pionk and ADA, with Staal one of them is likely to be paired with him, as he and Shattenkirk are not going to go well together.

Similarly up front, while Howden seem to have run with it, Chytil looks pretty good here and there, I think they'd be better off sending Chytil down and just focusing on Howden at the NHL level. As is those two are sort of competing for ice time, behind Hayes and Zbad.

I kind of think them developing all of ADA, Pionk, Chytil, Howden, Lettieri, Georgiev, Buchnevich while also dealing with uneven play from pretty much all the vets, youngish and older, is asking for too much.

Just trying to get Buchnevich, ADA, Pionk, Lettieri to be NHL consistent in the early part of this year would be my plan. Since Howden has already kind of run with it, I'd keep him up too. The others, I'm not sure they really need to be on the NHL team in the early stages here. I'd think Tokarski being played as back-up while they try to get there stuff together would also insulate Georgiev.

 

[Inferno]

When skjei plays with offensive defenseman he plays wwwaaayyyyy better than when he plays with defensive defenseman...it's like he feels he has to play lower risk hockey, and when he does he's so much better.

 

[DanielBrassard]

The reality is the discussion is ADA vs Pionk because McQuaid isn't coming out of the lineup, and neither is Shattenkirk. Until there's an injury or a trade, it's going to be 1 or the other in the lineup, and at this moment I think ADA deserves to play, and Pionk can be sent down without waivers. Of course I would rather them both be in the lineup but that's not happening now outside of going 11/7.

 

[Matt Rentfree]

Whatever the pairs turn out to be, without Staal they at least look like it's them trying to develop both Pionk and ADA, with Staal one of them is likely to be paired with him, as he and Shattenkirk are not going to go well together.

Similarly up front, while Howden seem to have run with it, Chytil looks pretty good here and there, I think they'd be better off sending Chytil down and just focusing on Howden at the NHL level. As is those two are sort of competing for ice time, behind Hayes and Zbad.

I kind of think them developing all of ADA, Pionk, Chytil, Howden, Lettieri, Georgiev, Buchnevich while also dealing with uneven play from pretty much all the vets, youngish and older, is asking for too much.

Just trying to get Buchnevich, ADA, Pionk, Lettieri to be NHL consistent in the early part of this year would be my plan. Since Howden has already kind of run with it, I'd keep him up too. The others, I'm not sure they really need to be on the NHL team in the early stages here. I'd think Tokarski being played as back-up while they try to get there stuff together would also insulate Georgiev.

I think this would be the best for all concerned. We can only hope that the Rangers front office implements most of this.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

The Pionk hate on this website is down to one thing. Advanced stats.

Lets all just be up front about that.

I don't think the guy has been great, but I am perplexed at how anyone can watch these games, and pick him out as a problem with our defense. Was he even at fault for any goals yesterday?

Not yesterday, I actually though it was the best of his 3 games so far. Not a coincidence that it was the one game where he wasn't attached with Staal from start to finish.

But he hasn't been good. He looked at his best away from Staal in the pre season too so I hope thats it.

 

[offdacrossbar]

the elephant in the room is marc staal.

lets be honest, dressing 7 d is deferring to marc staal. the alternative is sitting him. he was named an A and hes a lifer here. theres a respect thing working and its going to hurt us or help us (if you believe in the tank). until he has a nightmare game or 2 and his numbers show him to be deficient, this is how its gonna play out.

staals an anchor on that defense and not in a good way. he will block someone. hes a lefty shot, so someones gonna sit when he plays. i pity the partner who is paired with him. he'll likely get his ticket to the bench just by being his partner.

smith needs to play
skjeis gonna play

the other 4 who dressed are all R shot and honestly should all be playing ahead of #18

it comes down to this, sit staal or dress 7 and then do what quinn did. sit the guy who he feels is playing poorly. last game was shatty he had under 8 mins. the rest were all pretty close.


dress 7. play 6. seems to be quinns decision right now.

 

[will1066]

Is ada really high risk though? I don’t see him caught up ice ever. He and Skjei have looked great together when given the chance.

Sorry. I know I was being confusing. I was trying to say that ADA has flaws in his game that make him risky and pairing him with a reliable stay-at-home type might be better. I know everyone has flaws and make mistakes. His seems to stand out when they happen. Yesterday he tried a stretch pass and flubbed it. It was almost right in front of his own net, there were no Rangers anywhere to save his bacon, but he recovered and actually made a great pass on the second try.

 

[Greg02]

The Pionk hate on this website is down to one thing. Advanced stats.

Lets all just be up front about that.

I don't think the guy has been great, but I am perplexed at how anyone can watch these games, and pick him out as a problem with our defense. Was he even at fault for any goals yesterday?

I can only speak for myself, but as someone who is pretty skeptical of hockey's advanced stats and does not check them, I felt Pionk looked pretty awful by the eye test. I'm certainly no expert, and haven't even been watching the games super intently but there have been a bunch of times over the first three games that I look up and 44 is out of position or making a bad play. It's been noticeable when he's out on the ice, and not in a good way.

 

[Irishguy42]

I can only speak for myself, but as someone who is pretty skeptical of hockey's advanced stats and does not check them, I felt Pionk looked pretty awful by the eye test. I'm certainly no expert, and haven't even been watching the games super intently but there have been a bunch of times over the first three games that I look up and 44 is out of position or making a bad play. It's been noticeable when he's out on the ice, and not in a good way.

Same, and I like using advanced stats for things.

By the eye test, Pionk just doesn't do well more often than not.

 

[will1066]

Favorite thing I saw from ADA was how hard and accurate his passing is. It really showed on the PP. Very fast decision making as well.

I do like that he plays with an edge and has his teammates back without hesitation, but I think he needs to chill out and show a little more maturity and composure.

Bottom line he needs to be in the line up moving forward. I will seriously question Quinn if he doesn't.

I liked the way ADA worked the PP. His passes were decisive and had mustard on them compared to Zucc's and Shatty's passes that were slow and weak.

 

[CaptBubba5]

I liked the way ADA worked the PP. His passes were decisive and had mustard on them compared to Zucc's and Shatty's passes that were slow and weak.

Totally agree on ADA. He had a couple of flubs but who didn't? He's been a pleasure to watch and his assists were beautiful. He needs to stay in the lineup so he doesn't have to wonder on a daily basis.

 

[Machinehead]

the elephant in the room is marc staal.

lets be honest, dressing 7 d is deferring to marc staal. the alternative is sitting him. he was named an A and hes a lifer here. theres a respect thing working and its going to hurt us or help us (if you believe in the tank). until he has a nightmare game or 2 and his numbers show him to be deficient, this is how its gonna play out.

staals an anchor on that defense and not in a good way. he will block someone. hes a lefty shot, so someones gonna sit when he plays. i pity the partner who is paired with him. he'll likely get his ticket to the bench just by being his partner.

smith needs to play
skjeis gonna play

the other 4 who dressed are all R shot and honestly should all be playing ahead of #18

it comes down to this, sit staal or dress 7 and then do what quinn did. sit the guy who he feels is playing poorly. last game was shatty he had under 8 mins. the rest were all pretty close.


dress 7. play 6. seems to be quinns decision right now.

Dressing 7 leaves our forward lines in constant rotation and that was a mess. They need to have the balls to just scratch somebody.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I don’t see the point in arguing Pionk vs. DeAngelo when Shattenkirk is about 10x worse than them both.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Dressing 7 leaves our forward lines in constant rotation and that was a mess. They need to have the balls to just scratch somebody.

How long before this all becomes Quinn’s fault? I mean, coach bashing is sort of your thing so just checking to see if 3 games is enough.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Sounds like Sam and Marc Staal have something in common to bond over.

And by the way, you travel so much, I thought I read that YOU were in Seattle for the game.

Hahaha. Nah! I am actually in the Netherlands this weekend to visit family. Flying back to Vienna tomorrow.