Blue Jays GDT: 2024 v4 |Mon, Jun 17 | vs BOS | 7pm ET/4pm PT | Pivetta vs Kikuchi

[hoglund]

He don't care, like he said, "someone will pay me".

When did Vladdy say that?

 

[dredeye]

But man, we have decent young assets. We don’t have to go down to 90 to 100 losses again. Do not want. A new GM, who is relatively smart, should retool this relatively quickly. No way we have to suffer through more seasons like from 2017 to 2020. F that.

I said it earlier but the plan should be to move all the salary you can at the deadline and reload whatever you can in the off season. I think they’ll spend their way back as quickly as they can. It would be incredible if they could somehow unload Springer at the deadline. No idea who would be that dumb but one can dream lol. I think we look to restock the cupboards a little this year and try again next. If they can’t sing Jano by July they need to trade him and i hate the thought of him not being a Jay. Same for Kikuchi. We can always they and bring him back at seasons end. But he’s at that age where it’s real risky. I’d look to move Gausman as well and I’d even listen on Romano. Apparently the O’s have lots of interest in him and they have a loaded farm

 

[CabanaBoy5]

Unless the Jays are getting Soto and Christian Walker in the offseason, or a near equivalent (unlikely) we need a full rebuild. We're not close to Baltimore right now.

There isn't a gap between these two teams, there's a chasm. Orioles are a well-built team, all that we should have been but the they had competent management.

 

[Starry Knight]

But man, we have decent young assets. We don’t have to go down to 90 to 100 losses again. Do not want. A new GM, who is relatively smart, should retool this relatively quickly. No way we have to suffer through more seasons like from 2017 to 2020. F that.

Shouldn't have to look far with Click currently VP

 

[HockeyThoughts]

Fire Atkins, fire Shapiro, promote Click, hire a new GM and shoot Martinez & Mattingly into the sun.

Sell off expiring assets (Jano, Kikuchi, Garcia, etc.) and aging players with value (Romano, Gausman, etc.). Call up whatever promising prospects we have and begin the retool.

Since Bichette is in a lull, see if you can get him to sign a sweetheart deal. He's a near career .300 hitter and won't look this lost for too long.

Since Vlad has lost his HR power, see if you can get him to sign a fair longterm extension. If/when Vlad is able to re-combine this contact ability with his obvious power, the extension will look like a steal.

Bo & Vlad should still be our cornerstones. Both are still young and proven performers. They just need some real help (and real hitting coaches) on the periphery. At least Schneider and Varsho are a good start along with the potential of Horwitz/Barger/Martinez.

 

[MS]

I said it earlier but the plan should be to move all the salary you can at the deadline and reload whatever you can in the off season. I think they’ll spend their way back as quickly as they can. It would be incredible if they could somehow unload Springer at the deadline. No idea who would be that dumb but one can dream lol. I think we look to restock the cupboards a little this year and try again next. If they can’t sing Jano by July they need to trade him and i hate the thought of him not being a Jay. Same for Kikuchi. We can always they and bring him back at seasons end. But he’s at that age where it’s real risky. I’d look to move Gausman as well and I’d even listen on Romano. Apparently the O’s have lots of interest in him and they have a loaded farm

I'd be selling the hell out of Romano.

He's a 31 y/o closer and his velo is down, and his peripherals were already going the wrong way last year. If you can get a good prospect for him, sell.

 

[dredeye]

I'd be selling the hell out of Romano.

He's a 31 y/o closer and his velo is down, and his peripherals were already going the wrong way last year. If you can get a good prospect for him, sell.

That’s kind of how I feel to. I feel the same with Gausman. This season he’s tailing off and I don’t want to watch it continue like Springer for two more years. I think we’d get some pretty solid prospects back for both. I really like Romano but I think it’s the right more and he’s coming near the end of his arb years to

 

[MS]

That’s kind of how I feel to. I feel the same with Gausman. This season he’s tailing off and I don’t want to watch it continue like Springer for two more years. I think we’d get some pretty solid prospects back for both. I really like Romano but I think it’s the right more and he’s coming near the end of his arb years to

Yeah, if we're out of it Gausman is going to be 34 next year and he's still good but certainly appears to be starting to hit his decline and if you could get a good prospect and clear $22 million/year and then re-invest that in a younger FA starting pitcher you probably come out ahead.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

What a letdown so far this year.

It's already June but I feel like we are so out of it. The pitching, which should've been our strong point has been so inconsistent.

This is why banking on the pitching to replicate the excellent season last year was a disaster waiting to happen. It's also why you'd like to see the team capitalize on overachieving opportunities such as last year because who knows when such success would be realized again. Couple the downward trend of the pitching this year with an offence that's nowhere capable of making up for that, and we have what we are seeing now. An inconsistent team that will be fighting tooth and nail to finish .500 and be hard-pressed to claim one of the three Wild Card spots.

 

[Eyedea]

Funny enough that when you look at the list for most consecutive games with 0 runs in the 1st inning (since 2010), the current leader is the 2013 Brewers. It’s easy to imagine the Jays passing them as they need just two more games to do so, but there are a lot of parallels between the two orgs. The Brewers HAD good pieces like Lucroy, Gomez, even former MVP Ryan Braun, but the retool was inevitable with the young Pirates and Cubs squads (as well as the always prevalent Cards).

They were changing the guard, had a few high loss seasons, but never really went through that complete rebuild in order to get back into that postseason hunt. They still choke in the postseason which is beside the point but after that 2013-2016 mediocre spell they’ve remained competitive and often win their division despite competing against two higher payroll clubs in the Cards and Cubs.

The Brewers offence, top to bottom, is also fun and they aren’t even getting contributions yet from two of their top prospects (Chourio, Black). Joey Ortiz who they got in the Burnes trade has been a legitimate ROTY contender.

Edit: also the 2021 Marlins were also featured on the list, managed by yours truly Don Mattingly.

 

[MK78]

When did Vladdy say that?

Vlad says Blue Jays haven’t discussed a contract extension with him

Dominican sportswriter and MLB Insider Héctor Gómez interviewed Vladimir Guerrero Jr., at Yankee Stadium in the Bronx, New York this past weekend, and got some

jaysjournal.com

Translated from his original comments in Spanish, Vladdy says, “I would like the Blue Jays to offer me a contract extension, but they have not done so yet. Right now I am focused day after day. I'm calm, because no matter what, they are going to have to pay me sooner or later, whether it's this team or another".

 

[Kurtz]

I said it earlier but the plan should be to move all the salary you can at the deadline and reload whatever you can in the off season. I think they’ll spend their way back as quickly as they can. It would be incredible if they could somehow unload Springer at the deadline. No idea who would be that dumb but one can dream lol. I think we look to restock the cupboards a little this year and try again next. If they can’t sing Jano by July they need to trade him and i hate the thought of him not being a Jay. Same for Kikuchi. We can always they and bring him back at seasons end. But he’s at that age where it’s real risky. I’d look to move Gausman as well and I’d even listen on Romano. Apparently the O’s have lots of interest in him and they have a loaded farm

I'm with you on the selling part, but not on the reload part. There's no point.

To compete, we'd need to build almost an entire team out of free agency - we'd need a starting 3B, 2B, LF, RF, DH, C. Even if Schneider takes over fulltime in LF or 2B, that's 5 positions you have to fill.

Assuming we ship out Romano and Garcia, you'd also have to fill the closer and setup roles.

Assuming Gausman and Bassitt are shipped out and Kikuchi leaves, that's also 4 starting pitcher positions that we'd need to fill...but really 5 or 6 since you need more than 5 capable starters.

Since we won't be getting much, if any, help from the farm, you're talking about acquiring more than half an entire roster through free agency. That's an impossible task.

Might as well accept the reality of the situation - we need to blow up the team completely, including trading Bo, Vlad and Berrios. Though we can wait till the offseason to trade these 3, hopefully with a better GM making those deals.

 

[Suntouchable13]

I'm with you on the selling part, but not on the reload part. There's no point.

To compete, we'd need to build almost an entire team out of free agency - we'd need a starting 3B, 2B, LF, RF, DH, C. Even if Schneider takes over fulltime in LF or 2B, that's 5 positions you have to fill.

Assuming we ship out Romano and Garcia, you'd also have to fill the closer and setup roles.

Assuming Gausman and Bassitt are shipped out and Kikuchi leaves, that's also 4 starting pitcher positions that we'd need to fill...but really 5 or 6 since you need more than 5 capable starters.

Since we won't be getting much, if any, help from the farm, you're talking about acquiring more than half an entire roster through free agency. That's an impossible task.

Might as well accept the reality of the situation - we need to blow up the team completely, including trading Bo, Vlad and Berrios. Though we can wait till the offseason to trade these 3, hopefully with a better GM making those deals.

A better GM can retool this team quickly. Remember, aren’t you getting pieces back in those trades for these players? I don’t think a complete tank is necessary. Nor is it preferable.

 

[MK78]

Yeah the farm system is completely devoid of talent to either bring up to the Jays or to trade for any meaningful players to improve the team.

Atkins may have had some decent sucess signing free agent pitchers and some trades, but he absolutely failed at drafting and developing players. The fact that we are 2nd year in a row of not have any starting pitching depth for a 5th starter, and are having to do bullpen days for an injured starter is a damning admission of failure.

He's been here NINE YEARS. Only players of significance I can think of that are still here are Bo Bichette and Alek Manoah. Bichette will likely continue to be good for years, jury is still out on Manoah after last year's massive decline, this year so far is not really any indication if he is improving due to the injuries.

I'm not aware of any other Atkins draft pick that has succeeded beyond the Jays after they were traded. Someone fill me in please.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Yeah the farm system is completely devoid of talent to either bring up to the Jays or to trade for any meaningful players to improve the team.

Atkins may have had some decent sucess signing free agent pitchers and some trades, but he absolutely failed at drafting and developing players. The fact that we are 2nd year in a row of not have any starting pitching depth for a 5th starter, and are having to do bullpen days for an injured starter is a damning admission of failure.

He's been here NINE YEARS. Only players of significance I can think of that are still here are Bo Bichette and Alek Manoah. Bichette will likely continue to be good for years, jury is still out on Manoah after last year's massive decline, this year so far is not really any indication if he is improving due to the injuries.

I'm not aware of any other Atkins draft pick that has succeeded beyond the Jays after they were traded. Someone fill me in please.

You know what? It’s frustrating that the farm is devoid of talent. What the hell were they doing between 2017 and 2020? While Baltimore sucked majorly at the same time and drafted all these studs and developed them. That really pisses me off.

 

[Eyedea]

You know what? It’s frustrating that the farm is devoid of talent. What the hell were they doing between 2017 and 2020? While Baltimore sucked majorly at the same time and drafted all these studs and developed them. That really pisses me off.

Well the Jays traded most of their top picks around that timespan, or they floundered. But they did extract value out of quite a few of those picks for major league help.

But I still don’t agree with MK that the org is “devoid” of talent. There’s literally a bulk of hitters at the AAA level that are just waiting and blocked by the current cesspool on the roster. Maybe it’s for the best that they stay away until Donnie and his slap singles mantra is given the boot.

 

[MS]

I'm with you on the selling part, but not on the reload part. There's no point.

To compete, we'd need to build almost an entire team out of free agency - we'd need a starting 3B, 2B, LF, RF, DH, C. Even if Schneider takes over fulltime in LF or 2B, that's 5 positions you have to fill.

Assuming we ship out Romano and Garcia, you'd also have to fill the closer and setup roles.

Assuming Gausman and Bassitt are shipped out and Kikuchi leaves, that's also 4 starting pitcher positions that we'd need to fill...but really 5 or 6 since you need more than 5 capable starters.

Since we won't be getting much, if any, help from the farm, you're talking about acquiring more than half an entire roster through free agency. That's an impossible task.

Might as well accept the reality of the situation - we need to blow up the team completely, including trading Bo, Vlad and Berrios. Though we can wait till the offseason to trade these 3, hopefully with a better GM making those deals.

This won't be what they do and it isn't what they should be doing.

Fans love tanking at the first sign of any bumps in the road but pro sports teams dealing with real people and real money do not.

 

[MK78]

You know what? It’s frustrating that the farm is devoid of talent. What the hell were they doing between 2017 and 2020? While Baltimore sucked majorly at the same time and drafted all these studs and developed them. That really pisses me off.

Well to be fair, Baltimore absolutely tanked it to have 115, 108 and 110 loss seasons, that put them in position to have much better draft pick choices.

Jays only tank year was 2019, where they "only" lost 95 games, and they got Austin Martin at #5 pick, who they traded a year later. That was their top pick they ever had.

 

[Kurtz]

This won't be what they do and it isn't what they should be doing.

Fans love tanking at the first sign of any bumps in the road but pro sports teams dealing with real people and real money do not.

Bumps in the road? I've described all the positions we'd need to fill in the year remaining on Bo and Vlad's contracts, and you feel these are mere bumps? We need half a bloody team, a new coaching staff and a new GM.

This "bump in the road" delusion just prolongs the time it will take to finish the rebuild.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Hypothetical trades in a sell-off scenario:

Kikuchi + Garcia to Dodgers for Maddux Bruns + Eduardo Quintero + Zyhir Hope/Jeral Perez

Guasman + Jansen to Guardians for Ralphy Velasquez + Daniel Espino

Vlad + Romano to Yankees for Dominguez

 

[Suntouchable13]

Well to be fair, Baltimore absolutely tanked it to have 115, 108 and 110 loss seasons, that put them in position to have much better draft pick choices.

Jays only tank year was 2019, where they "only" lost 95 games, and they got Austin Martin at #5 pick, who they traded a year later. That was their top pick they ever had.

But baseball draft has a million rounds, you telling me they couldn't draft any better?

 

[Kurtz]

A better GM can retool this team quickly. Remember, aren’t you getting pieces back in those trades for these players? I don’t think a complete tank is necessary. Nor is it preferable.

Given all the needs I've described and the fact that Bo and Vlad will be on the last year of their deal, how can any GM possibly retool this roster to compete in the AL East in the next few years?

The purpose of the deals would be to stack our farm with long-term pieces. Trading these vets for immediate help, or near-ready lower-ceiling prospects like we did in the JA Happ deal just condemns us to more years of mediocrity.

Take the bandaid off, use the Baltimore/Houston approach to rebuilding. Otherwise what you see today, you'll be seeing for a long time to come.

 

[MK78]

But baseball draft has a million rounds, you telling me they couldn't draft any better?

Yeah well that's the fault of the scouting department. I think since covid year the million rounds have been drastically reduced. Like Davis Schneider would be undrafted, because he was picked #849 overall in the 28th round in 2017.

And Schneider was truly a nobody in the system until somehow last year he started hitting in AAA and he got called up and the Babe was born. But he's still under 100 games played and who knows what he will become. Not great defender, an average bat with a flair for the dramatic hit.

 

[Eyedea]

Hypothetical trades in a sell-off scenario:

Kikuchi + Garcia to Dodgers for Maddux Bruns + Eduardo Quintero + Zyhir Hope/Jeral Perez

Guasman + Jansen to Guardians for Ralphy Velasquez + Daniel Espino

Vlad + Romano to Yankees for Dominguez

I can understand lotto tickets for Kikuchi/Garcia but there likely has to be a balance of imminent and distant value for them.

That Gausman/Jansen deal is kinda crazy. A 1B in A ball and a pitcher with a dead shoulder?

Vlad + Romano for Dominguez might be obtainable value-wise but I’m not sure either team would be interested in discussing a deal of this magnitude.

 

[MS]

Bumps in the road? I've described all the positions we'd need to fill in the year remaining on Bo and Vlad's contracts, and you feel these are mere bumps? We need half a bloody team, a new coaching staff and a new GM.

This "bump in the road" delusion just prolongs the time it will take to finish the rebuild.

They had averaged 91 wins over the past 3 years and the core players are still in their mid-20s. Yes, this is a bump in the road.

The Yankees didn't start selling off Judge and Gleyber Torres when they were shit last year.

The Jays don't need 'half a bloody team'. They need 2 power bats and re-affirmed belief and direction from the top of the organization. No team has above-average players signed long term at every position. By your definition the Dodgers need 'half a bloody team' because they are absolute shit at 2B, 3B, and all 3 OF positions for 2025 (and right now, really, too).