Woodman19
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- Jun 14, 2008
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Also am I missing something I don't see high value in Horwitz.
Blue Jays Discussion: 2024-25 Off-season: The free agent watch begins (and sometimes old baseball radio broadcasts)
- Thread starter The Nemesis
- Start date
Kurtz
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- Jul 17, 2005
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The fact that this kid has put up all-star type of WAR numbers despite hitting around .700 OPS makes me think that the WAR formula is grossy over-inflating defensive value.
Doubling-down on defense at the expense of offense is not the direction I thought we we'd be going.
Doubling-down on defense at the expense of offense is not the direction I thought we we'd be going.
Welp, Gimenez is the best player so nothing wrong there.
Big ticket to take on, not sure so much where Sandlin slots….seems much the same.
Important to see what happens next.
Lotsa bodies up the middle yet.
Big ticket to take on, not sure so much where Sandlin slots….seems much the same.
Important to see what happens next.
Lotsa bodies up the middle yet.
I'm not up-in-arms about the trade and think it probably is a decent use of an asset like Horwitz. Doesn't solve any of the main problems with the roster.
saska sault
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Decent rookie season despite his advanced age makes people think he has unlocked potential even though he's very limited to his positions.
Canada4Gold
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- Dec 22, 2010
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2nd highest wRC+ on the team last year(min 25 games), 2nd highest projected wRC+ on the team next year. I get he's kind of positionless which hurts value and doesn't hit many HRs but for a team needing offense desperately trading your 2nd best offensive player(Realistically Bo's probably 2nd but lets say 3rd) seems very stupid.
I have nothing against Gimenez. I like defense first players more than most. Horwitz out is just completely not it though.
Isaac Nootin
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- Sep 28, 2017
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No.
A positionless 27 year old rookie. He hit a few out of the park for a team starving for offence so people see value for some reason.
Cheap with several years of control. That alone is valuable, particularly to a small market like Cleveland, but his minor league hit tool seemed to translate to the bigs.
As for Giminez, the contract is big, but the good thing is it’s $15M against the tax each season, even when it jumps to $23M in a couple of years.
Is there value in Gimenez considering his offensive performance the last two seasons and him still being owed $96M?
No. Especially not considering this team’s needs.
One of the worst offensive teams in the AL just acquired one of the worst offensive players in the AL and will pay him handsomely for the next 5 years.
He’s owed 94 million and his bat is borderline unplayable unless he bounces back. Major risk.
Killer Orcas
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Horwitz couldn't hit lefties at all I'm not concerned losing him. However considering how much Gimenez makes you'd think we could have extracted more from Cleveland for taking on all that salary that they clearly wanted gone.
Kurtz
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- Jul 17, 2005
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Well, by the numbers, he was our I think 2nd or 3rd best hitter last year. That's more an indictment of our offense than anything else, but that's why folks see value in him.
The Iceman
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- Sep 22, 2007
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You can safely remove the word likely from your post. In fact he could be a GG SS for the Jays as soon as next season.
I agree with the second point, pending whatever else is coming the rest of the offseason.
To your first, I suspect what's more likely is that you're grossly undervaluing defense.
Kurtz
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- Jul 17, 2005
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Why do you feel that I'm grossly undervaluing defense? Imo it's the least expensive area to address, not to mention that the Jays, if I'm not mistaken, were rated as the best defensive team in the league last year - and where did that bring us?
The Iceman
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- Sep 22, 2007
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Horwitz types are a dime a dozen. In fact due to his lack of power I will go with 5 cents.
He is a guy that couldn’t crack the weak Jays roster to start last season.
Was he exposed to waivers even? Not sure.
Jays stopped the Spencer at second base experiment entirely.
So what we have is a 27 year old 1st base/DH with good bat to ball but not much power.
Sign a Rowdy Tellez like player to replace him.
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saska sault
Registered User
30 stolen bases helps replace some of the lack of power. This team has not had a consistent base stealing threat for too long, especially for the well known lack of offense.
Starting to look like Ross was asleep at the wheel again...
TheBeastCoast
Registered User
I think the disagreement is with your point about WAR over inflating the value of defense. You aren't wrong about it being the least expensive area to address but that doesn't lessen it's value to winning.
Sure, and you can acquire good defense but pitiful offense without spending $24M per year.
The trade is one thing. The allocation of payroll to Gimenez? Dumb, dumb, dumb.
TheBeastCoast
Registered User
It isn't 24 per year btw. It is a bad contract, you don't need to try to make it worse then it is lol
I just think it's more likely that you are undervaluing it than it is that Fangraphs and BR and everyone else is overvaluing it.
The Jays defense was extremely valuable last year. They just sucked at other things that dragged them down.
Anyway, my worry now is that this pretty much means they need to add two bats, since I was factoring in Horwitz as a solid 5/6 hitter when I suggested one bat would be enough. Ugh.
