Blue Jays GDT: 2023 v13 | **WILDCARD SERIES GAME 2** Wed, Oct 4 | @ Min | 4:30pm ET/1:30pm PT | Berrios vs Gray

Who you got?


  • Total voters
    152
  • Poll closed .

Eyedea

The Legend Continues
Jan 29, 2012
27,818
3,674
Toronto, Ontario
AA had extended the core of his team for at least 5+ years. That team will be dangerous for awhile because he locked those guys on ridiculous good contracts.

Yes that's essentially what I said.

On the one hand I agree, but on the other just imagine the disaster that Vlad/Manoah megadeals would be right now had they been proffered.

I think pitching is usually a case where you would never do it. Max Fried has been going year to year and Ian Anderson is basically dead after being their playoff wunderkind. If Vladdy got an 8/100 like Acuna I don't think you really care about a down year. Unlikely he would've taken one, ditto Bo. But if they extended someone like Teo early on, who knows what future moves could've unfolded after the 2022 season.
 
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Anthrax442

Registered User
Aug 4, 2008
16,136
8,803
Toronto
www.russianroulette.ca
I enjoy the sight of the athletes I root for acting cool in triumph not like 8 year olds on a sugar high. I also admire acting out respect for your opposition rather than taunting them. Is that Don Cherry thinking? I just thought it was grown ass adult thinking.



I'm not watching anything that abomination of a human being says because it may change my mind out of the desire to never think like that mental midget.


I mean. He is no Hitler
 
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dredeye

BJ Elitist/Hipster
Mar 3, 2008
27,492
3,155
Don't downplay the hate AA had while he was here then. Plenty of people wanted him gone after 2013/14.
It’s funny how people forgot that part of it. I remember being beat on same as you as being rogers apologists for not wanting him fired. But now that he’s had this success that was the mistake. Regardless of the fact that he walked away.
 
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Kurtz

Registered User
Jul 17, 2005
10,458
7,615
It’s funny how people forgot that part of it. I remember being beat on same as you as being rogers apologists for not wanting him fired. But now that he’s had this success that was the mistake. Regardless of the fact that he walked away.

I don't know if people forget, I think people just realize that that point is completely irrelevant.

What relevance is it that people wanted him fired early on in his tenure, when all that really matters is that everyone wanted him to stay when Shapiro got on board...

It's like complaining about people currently bashing Vlad by pointing out that everyone was in love with him 3 years ago.
 
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hockeywiz542

Registered User
May 26, 2008
16,333
5,348

Under the guidance of Shapiro, the Blue Jays have become a robust revenue machine. Shapiro has masterfully managed the pressures that come with running a team owned by a publicly traded corporation. He has overseen a $300-million to $400-million refurbishing of the seventh-oldest facility in baseball while convincing ownership to foot a payroll that is the ninth-highest in the majors — and managed to do so after a pair of home seasons lost due to the COVID-19 pandemic. I know, I know — there are people who will roll their eyes and say they’d gladly trade “social areas” and hot-dog teeter-totters and cornhole games for a cleanup hitter, but the two aren’t the same. When it comes to owning and running an entertainment venue, Shapiro and his folks have breathed new life into the place.

On the field, the Blue Jays still have two more years of Bo and Vladdy, and that superb rotation is locked down for 2024 and beyond. Ricky Tiedemann and Brandon Barriera should factor in at some point in the next two years. Hyun-Jin Ryu, Kevin Kiermaier, Belt, Chapman and Whit Merrifield – whose $19-million option can’t be picked up – ate up $57 million in salary in 2023. That’s 20 per cent of the payroll, and none of them will be back.


So, there is wiggle room, even though this isn’t a spectacular free-agent market beyond Shohei Ohtani — and, yes, the Blue Jays are prepared to have a discussion about Ohtani even though conventional wisdom says he’ll stay on the West Coast. There is a currency in having payroll flexibility, and it will be vital if the the Blue Jays choose to go the trade route this off-season, because their relative lack of high-impact prospects could mean they have to swallow someone else’s unsatisfactory contract in a deal to bring in, say, that impactful middle-of-the-order bat.

There is a lot of heavy lifting that needs to be done here. Is Jordan Romano the closer and, if so, what really explained that change in order with Jordan Hicks late in the season and whose idea was it? Who’s at third base? Who’s the cleanup hitter?

Wither Alek Manoah? And it’s about time to really sit down and see where the organization is with Vladimir Guerrero Jr., because absent a long-term contract, we’re 12 months away from talking about whether you let him walk as a free agent or make a trade. That, and figuring out what to do with the dying embers of Bo Bichette’s contract.


Yep. That’s how fast this stuff has happened.

Shapiro and Atkins have been here together since 2016. They’re on their third manager, haven’t won a playoff series and have basically become the Toronto Maple Leafs: Big budget but shocking deficiencies in key on-field areas. Oodles of financial and intellectual heft. Possessed of generational players, and an engaged but increasingly frustrated — and, maybe worse, confused — fanbase that is looking for someone to blame before checking out how much tickets will cost in 2024.

Shapiro and Atkins are now in consumer-confidence territory with one of Canada’s few true national sports brands. Uncomfortable place, that.
 
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Eyedea

The Legend Continues
Jan 29, 2012
27,818
3,674
Toronto, Ontario
I don't know if people forget, I think people just realize that that point is completely irrelevant.

What relevance is it that people wanted him fired early on in his tenure, when all that really matters is that everyone wanted him to stay when Shapiro got on board...

It's like complaining about people currently bashing Vlad by pointing out that everyone was in love with him 3 years ago.

I don’t think it’s irrelevant because it shows irrational and volatile thinking within fandom.

5 1/2 years of rebuilding, attempting to compete, and mediocrity. We defended AA because we understood the reasoning behind his moves. Some didn’t work, some did, and in the end he sacrificed the team’s prospect capital for a final push. I don’t even blame him for that, and I don’t blame him for leaving. But for a historic second half stretch, an ALCS run, and an exec of the year award, the 5 years prior are just suddenly meaningless to the detractors?

And there was no way he was coming back knowing that Beeston was gone and a baseball mind was going to become president and likely be involved in the baseball ops process (eliminating AAs full autonomy). It’s also not difficult to see why there were rumours of Shapiro being disgruntled with the midseason trades. Even if they proved successful in turning the team into a competitor, now Shapiro and his new GM (Atkins) would have to shoulder the responsibility of seeing out that short window rather than go into a full rebuild and develop their own vision.

AA only comes up in conversation now because the Braves are admittedly world class, something we cannot simply expect to have occurred here in the same timeframe had he stayed. A lot of things had to align right for AA to even get his current position (Coppollela getting banned, who rebuilt that entire system). It’s just way too easy to say “They never should have gotten rid of AA (they didn’t), Shapiro never should have been hired.” We’d be WS champs by now, blah blah blah

And people bashing Vlad and demanding to trade him after a bad year is further support of this point. The first year of his career where he vastly underperforms relative to his expected stats. A year where his mother has had health issues and could be added to the one of many possible reasons for why he had a down year. We saw Berrios have an uncharacteristic season the year prior, so we just have to wait and see what’s in store for Vladdy in 2024.
 

Eyedea

The Legend Continues
Jan 29, 2012
27,818
3,674
Toronto, Ontario

Under the guidance of Shapiro, the Blue Jays have become a robust revenue machine. Shapiro has masterfully managed the pressures that come with running a team owned by a publicly traded corporation. He has overseen a $300-million to $400-million refurbishing of the seventh-oldest facility in baseball while convincing ownership to foot a payroll that is the ninth-highest in the majors — and managed to do so after a pair of home seasons lost due to the COVID-19 pandemic. I know, I know — there are people who will roll their eyes and say they’d gladly trade “social areas” and hot-dog teeter-totters and cornhole games for a cleanup hitter, but the two aren’t the same. When it comes to owning and running an entertainment venue, Shapiro and his folks have breathed new life into the place.

On the field, the Blue Jays still have two more years of Bo and Vladdy, and that superb rotation is locked down for 2024 and beyond. Ricky Tiedemann and Brandon Barriera should factor in at some point in the next two years. Hyun-Jin Ryu, Kevin Kiermaier, Belt, Chapman and Whit Merrifield – whose $19-million option can’t be picked up – ate up $57 million in salary in 2023. That’s 20 per cent of the payroll, and none of them will be back.


So, there is wiggle room, even though this isn’t a spectacular free-agent market beyond Shohei Ohtani — and, yes, the Blue Jays are prepared to have a discussion about Ohtani even though conventional wisdom says he’ll stay on the West Coast. There is a currency in having payroll flexibility, and it will be vital if the the Blue Jays choose to go the trade route this off-season, because their relative lack of high-impact prospects could mean they have to swallow someone else’s unsatisfactory contract in a deal to bring in, say, that impactful middle-of-the-order bat.

There is a lot of heavy lifting that needs to be done here. Is Jordan Romano the closer and, if so, what really explained that change in order with Jordan Hicks late in the season and whose idea was it? Who’s at third base? Who’s the cleanup hitter?

Wither Alek Manoah? And it’s about time to really sit down and see where the organization is with Vladimir Guerrero Jr., because absent a long-term contract, we’re 12 months away from talking about whether you let him walk as a free agent or make a trade. That, and figuring out what to do with the dying embers of Bo Bichette’s contract.


Yep. That’s how fast this stuff has happened.

Shapiro and Atkins have been here together since 2016. They’re on their third manager, haven’t won a playoff series and have basically become the Toronto Maple Leafs: Big budget but shocking deficiencies in key on-field areas. Oodles of financial and intellectual heft. Possessed of generational players, and an engaged but increasingly frustrated — and, maybe worse, confused — fanbase that is looking for someone to blame before checking out how much tickets will cost in 2024.

Shapiro and Atkins are now in consumer-confidence territory with one of Canada’s few true national sports brands. Uncomfortable place, that.

This “haven’t won a playoff series” has become so cliché.
 
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Kurtz

Registered User
Jul 17, 2005
10,458
7,615
It’s also not difficult to see why there were rumours of Shapiro being disgruntled with the midseason trades. Even if they proved successful in turning the team into a competitor, now Shapiro and his new GM (Atkins) would have to shoulder the responsibility of seeing out that short window rather than go into a full rebuild and develop their own vision.

Rather ironic then that Shapkins ended up doing the same thing (trading our top prospects), but without remotely the same success.

Trouble is, AA's strategy was 100% the way to go under those circumstances, and Shapkins failing to realize this was a clue of their future (mis)management.

But this does open up an interesting discussion. Should we aim for cycles of complete rebuilds/restocks of our farms that would last for 3-5 years and then produce a serious contenders for a similar or smaller window (the vintage Marlins approach), or should we do what Dipoto in Seattle said is their aim - try to win 54% of their games and be in the wild card conversation every year.

Had you asked me this a decade ago when we were 20 years without a playoff appearance, I would have opted for the latter. But now, especially in this division, I think that the former approach is the way to go.
 

dredeye

BJ Elitist/Hipster
Mar 3, 2008
27,492
3,155
I don't know if people forget, I think people just realize that that point is completely irrelevant.

What relevance is it that people wanted him fired early on in his tenure, when all that really matters is that everyone wanted him to stay when Shapiro got on board...

It's like complaining about people currently bashing Vlad by pointing out that everyone was in love with him 3 years ago.
What? People had no faith in AA throughout and were actively calling for him to be fired until we had a crazy run when he pushed all in. It is nothing like Vlad and I don’t get the comparison. If Vladdy was offered a very generous extension and left anyway for a lesser role and popped back up as Vladdy from three years ago in yet another organization 6 years from now then maybe it’s kind of comparable.
 

rboomercat90

Registered User
Mar 24, 2013
15,938
11,162
Edmonton
So Shatkins is running things via analytics then why have a manager? Just hire some random guy from HFboards to make the pitching change and offensive subs and save Rogers some good coin. Pay the guy 40 K to travel all over the USA in 5* hotels and free meals.

No need for a manager to think as the spreadsheet has it all figured out beforehand and then when a decision needs to be made in a game Atkins just texts the coach on a Rogers cellphone- what move to make.
You don’t think random guys weren’t hired when Montoyo and then Schneider were brought on board? Neither of these guys were on any other teams radar as managerial choices. This is exactly what’s been going on since Gibby left.
 

dredeye

BJ Elitist/Hipster
Mar 3, 2008
27,492
3,155
I don’t think it’s irrelevant because it shows irrational and volatile thinking within fandom.

5 1/2 years of rebuilding, attempting to compete, and mediocrity. We defended AA because we understood the reasoning behind his moves. Some didn’t work, some did, and in the end he sacrificed the team’s prospect capital for a final push. I don’t even blame him for that, and I don’t blame him for leaving. But for a historic second half stretch, an ALCS run, and an exec of the year award, the 5 years prior are just suddenly meaningless to the detractors?

And there was no way he was coming back knowing that Beeston was gone and a baseball mind was going to become president and likely be involved in the baseball ops process (eliminating AAs full autonomy). It’s also not difficult to see why there were rumours of Shapiro being disgruntled with the midseason trades. Even if they proved successful in turning the team into a competitor, now Shapiro and his new GM (Atkins) would have to shoulder the responsibility of seeing out that short window rather than go into a full rebuild and develop their own vision.

AA only comes up in conversation now because the Braves are admittedly world class, something we cannot simply expect to have occurred here in the same timeframe had he stayed. A lot of things had to align right for AA to even get his current position (Coppollela getting banned, who rebuilt that entire system). It’s just way too easy to say “They never should have gotten rid of AA (they didn’t), Shapiro never should have been hired.” We’d be WS champs by now, blah blah blah

And people bashing Vlad and demanding to trade him after a bad year is further support of this point. The first year of his career where he vastly underperforms relative to his expected stats. A year where his mother has had health issues and could be added to the one of many possible reasons for why he had a down year. We saw Berrios have an uncharacteristic season the year prior, so we just have to wait and see what’s in store for Vladdy in 2024.
You did a much better job than I did of explaining this lol
 

LaP

Registered User
Jun 27, 2012
26,701
21,289
Quebec City, Canada
Not that I want Kim, but I don’t think you’re correct. Bautista bloomed at like 30, and did not fall off till he was 37. EE, I think at 28 and did not fall off till about 36-37. Smoak just wasn’t a good player who had a fluky year once. If Kim is a late bloomer, I don’t think it’s that much of a gamble that it will be short lived.
Yes you're right and i'm not saying it doesn't happen that a late bloomer has a long career but you don't make a trade betting it will happen unless the cost is low. Not sure i'd call Moreno or Vlad a low cost to pay for a risky bet.
 

rboomercat90

Registered User
Mar 24, 2013
15,938
11,162
Edmonton
They didn't bring in Mattingly to carry Schneiders water ... whoever does not see that move from day one is in a coma.
I have a hard time believing an old school guy like Mattingly is interested in taking a manager job where most of the managerial decisions are made by others.
 

rboomercat90

Registered User
Mar 24, 2013
15,938
11,162
Edmonton
Even with AA, between 2009 (or 2010, I don’t remember when he took over) and up to July 2015 team was doing nothing. All of a sudden he turned into some great GM?
Something that doesn’t seem to be mentioned when evaluating Anthopolous in Toronto is Rogers wasn’t interested in spending a lot of money during the Beeston/AA era. AA brought it up every offseason and trade deadline that he had a strict budget to work with. That started to change after 2015 but by then it was Shapiro in charge. I’d have loved to have seen what AA could have done in Toronto with Shapiro’s budget, we’ve seen what he’s done in Atlanta.
 
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kb

Registered User
Aug 28, 2009
15,335
21,944
Yeah, mostly the same people hating on him now. Haters gotta hate. lol
He left the team devoid of a farm system in 2015....he gutted it.

He walked into a perfect situation in Atlanta. Most of the talent was already there.

The AA crew are as bad at making excuses as the Dubas crew.
 
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kb

Registered User
Aug 28, 2009
15,335
21,944
lol @ the consumate Shatkins apologist talking about making excuses. Shatkins could trade Bichette for magic beans and you'd still be gagging on him.
Reported, but I am anything but an apologist. I want them gone, and I did like AA. But liking him and overlooking things is not my M.O.

You have proven my point to perfection.
 

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