Blue Jays GDT: 2023 v13 | **WILDCARD SERIES GAME 2** Wed, Oct 4 | @ Min | 4:30pm ET/1:30pm PT | Berrios vs Gray

Who you got?


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Jul 15, 2010
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Toronto
I want Vladdy gone. Guys a loser. He’s an overrated bum. He gives zero f***s. He gives zero effort. He sucks. He’s out of shape. He has minimal power. He can’t hit for average. He sucks defensively. He hasn’t won a meaningful game in his tenure. Guys a straight up loser.
I think Vladdy would visibly demonstrate his commitment to the game, and develop into a better player, if he were to reduce his weight and improve his personal fitness.

Actions speak louder than words, and he just doesn't have it.

Ditto for Kirk and Manoah.

I wouldn't shed a tear if the Blue Jays moved on from any or all of them.

Pat Gillick and crew recruited lean, athletic players like Devon White instead. This team shops in the Butterball turkey section of the supermarket.
 

ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
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Pitching change easily.

The pitching change was calculated and planned by a guy whose job it is to make these decisions. It was intentional. Even a casual baseball fan knew better than to take out a pitcher who was dealing and it was still in a relatively early part of the game.

That decision alone IS enough to lose a job over.

In soccer world cup, it's customary if a big team underachieves and gets knocked out early, the manager tends to resign the next day.

sometimes other sports could learn from each other.
Yeah I get that it was bad but at least it had thought behind it. Not paying attention at that point in the game is inexcusable. To me it highlights his entire time here, no game face.

I have no doubt they will fire the manager, they weren’t going to do it last night.
 

hoglund

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Dec 8, 2013
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I want Vladdy gone. Guys a loser. He’s an overrated bum. He gives zero f***s. He gives zero effort. He sucks. He’s out of shape. He has minimal power. He can’t hit for average. He sucks defensively. He hasn’t won a meaningful game in his tenure. Guys a straight up loser.
That's irrational thinkling. Relaax a few days and you will start to realize Vladdy is a better than average player and they'd get very little for him after a year where he underachieved.
 

justashadowof

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Aug 15, 2020
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I want Vladdy gone. Guys a loser. He’s an overrated bum. He gives zero f***s. He gives zero effort. He sucks. He’s out of shape. He has minimal power. He can’t hit for average. He sucks defensively. He hasn’t won a meaningful game in his tenure. Guys a straight up loser.
He's going to have some very nice career numbers when all's said and done with his career but he hasn't matured as much as we've hoped. I'll point out that while hitters like him don't grow on trees, they're way more common then they were 30 years ago. Pretty much every major league team has a roughly equivalent talent some with more than one.

The most maddening development in the past year was the decision to retain Kirk over Moreno and only getting Varsho in return for Moreno. The physical condition of Kirk (and Guerrero) is unacceptable in 2023 pro sports where so many resources are available to the players.
 

stats1

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Jul 22, 2022
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I wouldn’t trade Vladdy, but he needs to get in better shape physically and mentally. It’s like he has ADHD, he lacks focus, he wants to joke around all the time. Him getting caught asleep at 2B is completely inexcusable for a professional athlete. Him, Manoah, Kirk gotta start showing some commitment to their profession. Lose some weight, get better mentally and become mature professionals. Because this team isn’t going anywhere if Vladdy continues to look and play like he has been
 

fancy lad

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Nov 22, 2021
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Yeah I get that it was bad but at least it had thought behind it. Not paying attention at that point in the game is inexcusable. To me it highlights his entire time here, no game face.

I have no doubt they will fire the manager, they weren’t going to do it last night.

I think because there was thought behind it is why it was such an inexcusably stupid decision. It's one thing to excuse a stupid mistake, but this was no mistake... it was something brewing up in his brain for 10, 15 minutes.

And the best part is he did it all for Kikuchi!!!! With all due respect the guy is such an unknown, risky pitcher to have out there when the season is on the line. he was a great 5th starter, but to put him in that situation in that game. what in the actual fukk???

it blows my mind. As bad as vladdy's fuk up was, this was way worse.
 

justashadowof

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Aug 15, 2020
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There has been so much hype attached to Guerrero that the thought of moving on may be very hard to sell to some. I had someone say to me that he wouldn't watch another game if the team move Guerrero. I don't know why he gets this elevated status. Bo Bichette is easily a more valuable talent as he can play an important defensive position now and could easily take on another one in the future.
 

theaub

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Nov 21, 2008
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Its obviously the worst time to trade Vlad, but do you really want to run this core group back again? Bo is the only guy left with legitimate high end trade value and he's not the one to move on from...
 

Guided by Veseys

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Nov 14, 2011
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The vladdy play was god awful but they were already in such a desperate spot thanks to the pitching change. With Berrios performing that well and the twins not having much at the plate last night, likely a zero/zero game until later innings.
 

Nineteen67

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Dec 12, 2017
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It’s obviously the worst time to trade Vlad, but do you really want to run this core group back again? Bo is the only guy left with legitimate high end trade value and he's not the one to move on from...
IMO, you ask Bo if wants to stay in Toronto long term or if he wants to play in traditional baseball city. You do the right thing and accommodate him.
 

theaub

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Nov 21, 2008
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lol Bo hasn't done anything close to enough to be worth accommodating. But if he doesn't want to sign long term then yes it might be the winter to blow it up.
 
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Dr Pepper

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Dec 9, 2005
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I think Vladdy would visibly demonstrate his commitment to the game, and develop into a better player, if he were to reduce his weight and improve his personal fitness.

Actions speak louder than words, and he just doesn't have it.

Ditto for Kirk and Manoah.

I wouldn't shed a tear if the Blue Jays moved on from any or all of them.

Pat Gillick and crew recruited lean, athletic players like Devon White instead. This team shops in the Butterball turkey section of the supermarket.

Maybe Vladdy was too busy loading up on "uncrustables" all season.

I know Sportsnet basically drove that product into the ****ing ground with the number of ads it ran, every break there was yet another ad featuring Springer and Vladdy fighting over a shitty excuse for a sandwich. :laugh:

As for Kirk and Manoah......Kirk was maddening to watch. He had SOME pop in his bat still but the man hit into more double plays that I can remember. Between him, Vogelbach and Stanton I don't think there was a slower runner in all of baseball. And some of his backers will point out his defensive attributes, "oh he's really good at framing", or he doesn't allow many passed balls, but come on. Jays traded the wrong catcher, 100%. Kirk's value will never be as high as it was last season. Manoah, I thought the pitch clock really threw him off his rhythm but it seems like every other pitcher learned to deal with it so I don't know what happened to him. Maybe conditioning as well, some extra weight affecting his mechanics. :help:

No clue what this team's going to look like next season, or who's going to manage it. Bump Mattingly up, fire Schneider into the sun, see if that helps.
 

Suntouchable13

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Dec 20, 2003
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Toronto, ON
For next year, they can just run it back with the same rotation and not sign any significant free agent pitcher. But of course you can always use more depth because you can’t just rely on 4 starters repeating with 30+ starts each. But yea, I think most of the resources need to be spent on hitting. Can they add a couple of true mashers into this lineup?

How do you balance still being great defensively while improving the offence? Like when they went out to get Chappy who is the best defender at 3rd they could possibly get, but he is an unreliable bat. Teoscar can mash, but he is poor defensively and very inconsistent (prone to very long cold spells). Same with Lourdes. Don’t suggest to bring these guys back, please.
 
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LaP

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Jun 27, 2012
26,709
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Quebec City, Canada
Here's my opinion on this season. I know lot of guys will disagree but whatever :

1. What we saw against the Twins is simply a continuation of of what we saw this season. Nobody should be surprised by that. Guys like me who expressed concern during the season often got criticized but the concern were 100% legit.
2. The problem of this team runs far deeper than just Vlad. Vlad is a young player who so far has not shown the ability to be a leader and clutch player but as a CH fan i've been there and done that when we traded Subban. Anyone who believe trading Vlad in itself will solve anything is out for launch. Fine with trading vlad but it needs to be a trade to improve the team not just pretend Atkins is doing something.
3. Any advance stats saying Belt was the Jays best hitter this year should be questioned. I've watch enough baseball to not be surprised with Belt struggling against good pitchers in playoffs. The guy is old and slow. He gets on base with BB but good pitchers don't give BB to guys like him in playoffs. I'm not saying he's bad or part of the reasons the Jays looked bad all year but advanced stats should be a tool not a religion. If an advanced stats tell you this guy was Jays best hitter than you should look deeper.
4. You simply can't let go a guy hitting 25-35 HR a year and producing 80-100 RBI a year lately and replace him by a defensive guy and think everything gonna be fine. Defense wins champ only if you can score runs. I know lot of guys around here hate Hernandez but i'm sorry there was no reality where Varsho was going to replace his offense. I've been critical of the Varsho trade since day 1 and i still think it was an awful trade. If you gonna trade one of your best prospect you have to aim higher than Varsho.
5. Here the things i would do this winter. This is my opinion and it is in no way a professional one just me being an armchair gm :
a) I sadly would not resign KK and i would move Varsho to center field where his lack of offense will hurt less.
b) I would try to find a left fielded to replace Hernandez production. A guy who can hit 30 HR and produce 100 RBI once in a while at least.
c) Chapman and Merrifield would not be back and would be replaced by kids to free some money.
d) I'd listen to offers on pretty much any position players (outside of Bichette) and Manoah (which is obviously something a GM should always do).
e) Improving base running should definitely be a priority. So i'd try to find a DH who is faster than my gandma on base.
f) The Cavan Biggio project needs to end. Guy simply doesn't have what it takes. He must be considered a bench player Jays have far better prospect than him.
g) I'd try to find a better 3rd catcher if i don't receive any good offers on Kirk and if he shows up next camp in the same shape as this year he would be out of here instantly. Kirk base running is a huge issue when he hits like this year (it's an issue not matter what but even bigger when he sucks). Things wont improve unless he improves his fitness. It's much worse than Vlad. He's among the worse base runners i've ever seen and i watch baseball since the mid 80ies.
h) I'd obviously fire the coaching staff.
i) I'd try to extend Hicks for sure.
j) I would not do much when it comes to pitchers outside of finding a better 6th pitcher than White to cover for Manoah if he's not traded.
 

ryno23

Registered User
Feb 5, 2010
5,514
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So Shatkins is running things via analytics then why have a manager? Just hire some random guy from HFboards to make the pitching change and offensive subs and save Rogers some good coin. Pay the guy 40 K to travel all over the USA in 5* hotels and free meals.

No need for a manager to think as the spreadsheet has it all figured out beforehand and then when a decision needs to be made in a game Atkins just texts the coach on a Rogers cellphone- what move to make.
 

TheTotalPackage

Registered User
Sep 14, 2006
7,684
6,072
What was worse? Vladdy getting picked off or changing pitchers?

For me it’s Vladdy easily, that was brutal.
The pitching change was beyond stupid and Schneider should be fired for that decision alone. Although, yes, I do believe it was a calculated move that included management. One of the many reasons why I hate analytics creeping into on-field decisions.

BUT, that Vladdy pick-off is one of the most boneheaded moves in the franchise's history. Complete absentmindedness that should never happen. Vladdy's head should have constantly been on a swivel to check where Correa was, along with his surroundings. Instead, Correa was not only allowed to creep in behind him and plant on 2nd base, it was done so with Vladdy not having a freaking clue until it was too late. Any other game, and I'd hope his ass would be nailed to the bench for the rest of that game as well as the next 3 games because of it.
 

Al14

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Jul 13, 2007
24,420
5,900
The Jays appear to be made up of a set of core players that can't show up in big games.

They didn't secure the wild card playoff spot themselves, they had to have help from the Rangers.

They also mirrored our Leafs by losing the wild card playoff series to a team with a worse regular season record.

Losers lose when it's the most important time to compete and win.

Just like our Leafs, this Jays team needs to make major changes to acquire talent that WANTS to win every game, and shows it during the games !!!
 
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fahad203

Registered User
Oct 3, 2009
39,574
23,381
GM and Coach both needs to go. They just don't have it, money ball bs needs to stop in every sport
If data decides the game and decisions, why even have a coach. Still not sure why we switched pitcher but hey, I am no coach
We have seen this with the Leafs. Over coaching

Vladdy hasn't materlized into the player we thought he would be.
 

hoglund

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Dec 8, 2013
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He has a lot of growing up to do which is starting to look like that may never happen.

I’d move on 100%
What will you get for him? 2 years ago he was 2nd in mvp voting. You can't get anything for him and if you get rid of him he'll be an mvp for another team. I know I'm a TigerCats fan and we got rid of both Calvillo and Collaros for nothing and both players went on to be stats and win multiple championship.
 

LaP

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Jun 27, 2012
26,709
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Quebec City, Canada
What will you get for him? 2 years ago he was 2nd in mvp voting. You can't get anything for him and if you get rid of him he'll be an mvp for another team. I know I'm a TigerCats fan and we got rid of both Calvillo and Collaros for nothing and both players went on to be stats and win multiple championship.
On a side note thank you for Calvillo. One of the best in the history of the league XD
 
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JT AM da real deal

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Oct 4, 2018
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For next year, they can just run it back with the same rotation and not sign any significant free agent pitcher. But of course you can always use more depth because you can’t just rely on 4 starters repeating with 30+ starts each. But yea, I think most of the resources need to be spent on hitting. Can they add a couple of true mashers into this lineup?
It is not that simple .. Jays have an excellent collection of middling/good starters (I am told this from US baseball guys from my wife's family who played college and mlb pro ball) so much so that they have 4 guys any of whom could have started and/or played any playoffs games this year with similar results .. with Manoah they had a potential ace who has amazing stuff but he got fat over da summer .. but this is not how MLB clubs draft and sign up a starting rotation .. playoff teams have 2 top of rotation starters who play 1st 2 games and best of those playoff teams have proven aces who win those games by force by themselves .. then 3 thru 5 are average/weak starters who they expect to lose the 3rd game or else they run out there relievers in that game .. Jays have a great regular season starter lineup but it won't work in playoffs ever which we have seen past 4 years .. if nothing changes then expect to see da same old same old every year going forward .. major changes need to occur if team wants to have playoff success .. GM and mgr need to go ASAP .. then Manoah and Fathy and Kirk all need to be told to come to camp next spring without any guts hanging out of their jerseys so lose 50+ lbs each .. they need to be told they will be weight managed all winter and all season long daily .. and they need to be threatened and told thy will not take da field in mlb camp if they are out of shape period .. they can start year in minors .. if they don't give a sh*t like many here think then trade them ASAP and let another team deal with immaturity and child like behavior because they are hurting team here .. these dudes think they are da cats meow and they need to be told they are 1 step from working at a gas station .. it will take a NEW MGMT culture .. da Wall Streeter from Houston is a real hard *ss and would make a great hire .. no BS from him .. although Toronto is such a soft liberal place he probably won't make it here long term
 

ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
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What will you get for him? 2 years ago he was 2nd in mvp voting. You can't get anything for him and if you get rid of him he'll be an mvp for another team. I know I'm a TigerCats fan and we got rid of both Calvillo and Collaros for nothing and both players went on to be stats and win multiple championship.
That seems to be a contradiction.
A tough decision will need to be made, personally I don't think you can win with him leading the team.
 

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