Blue Jays GDT: 2023 v13 | **WILDCARD SERIES GAME 2** Wed, Oct 4 | @ Min | 4:30pm ET/1:30pm PT | Berrios vs Gray

[Larcos_Unal]

They're not the Leafs. Losing in embarrassing fashion and then selling out every home game The following season is not going to happen with them.


Lol. Not a chance.



This is 100% bang on.

I'm dying to be wrong but I get the feeling this guy is viewed as the baseball equivalent of Dubas where he can literally do no wrong unless he asks for Shapiro's job.

Doubt he's going anywhere...I very badly want to be wrong on this.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

Not sure if serious because it's pretty obvious but just in case

“I felt like going to L.A. was like going to grad school,” Anthopoulos said, citing the chance to learn from Friedman and Farhan Zaidi, now president of baseball operations for the San Francisco Giants.

“When you’re exposed to the best in the industry, you’re going to get better, right?” Anthopoulos said. “It’s like Warren Buffett and a lot of other people say: Surround yourself with people that are better than you are. Andrew and Farhan made me better.”

Andrew Friedman's handprints are evident on all four teams in MLB playoffs

Atlanta Braves GM Alex Anthopoulos is one of several executives with ties to the Dodgers' Andrew Friedman, and both feel the scars of Houston's cheating in 2017.

www.latimes.com

No doubt working with the Dodgers has hugely benefitted AA.

With that said, pre-Dodgers, he was able to construct a team in Toronto that won some playoff games. Ross Atkins, in 8 years, despite having tremendous resources, has yet to do so.

In his entire career in roles where he was a GM (or more senior level executive), Mark Shapiro's teams have won a total of 8 playoff games. The timeframe spans from 2001 to 2023. 22 years. 8 playoff game wins.

 

[SpezDispenser]

I would fire everyone. From the top to the bottom. Unless you're content with bullshit decisions from both manager and mangement and want to waste Bo's years while they stick their noses in a f***ing analytics novel.

 

[canucksfan]

No doubt working with the Dodgers has hugely benefitted AA.

With that said, pre-Dodgers, he was able to construct a team in Toronto that won some playoff games. Ross Atkins, in 8 years, despite having tremendous resources, has yet to do so.

In his entire career in roles where he was a GM (or more senior level executive), Mark Shapiro's teams have won a total of 8 playoff games. The timeframe spans from 2001 to 2023. 22 years. 8 playoff game wins.

Of course, AA did, because he traded a lot of prospects to win which wasn't a bad thing because the team was aging. They had 2015 and 2016 to win, and that was it. He tried in 2013 and it backfired significantly.

AA did some good things while he was a Jay, but fans seem to forget some of the bad things he did. Trading Syndergaard, not developing young players, not signing high draft picks, and the Florida trade.

On the other side, I do believe Atkins needs to go. He has been given a chance and there's been no playoff success.

 

[ktownhockey]

ngl I'm glad I'm a bandwagoner

It must suck watching 162 games just to have your teams playoff run end in the span of 27 hours

I was probably 159 games watched. Most live but 10-15 PVR d. I'll always be a fan, every season is a new story. It sucks for sure!! Could have told the bandwaggon crew to not watch because I had a good feeling what would happen in these two games. Same stuff all season. It was a ride, sometimes fun, most of the time frustrating. We made the playoffs, which I guess makes it a touch easier to swallow.

Rotation back next year with Tiedemann waiting in the wings. Sign one bullpen arm to replace Hicks. Then spend some money on two power bats and send some of the mistakes flyinggggggg.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

Of course, AA did, because he traded a lot of prospects to win which wasn't a bad thing because the team was aging. They had 2015 and 2016 to win, and that was it. He tried in 2013 and it backfired significantly.

AA did some good things while he was a Jay, but fans seem to forget some of the bad things he did. Trading Syndergaard, not developing young players, not signing high draft picks, and the Florida trade.

On the other side, I do believe Atkins needs to go. He has been given a chance and there's been no playoff success.

Personally, I'd much rather have a GM take risks to win vs a robot whose primary concern is "mitigating risk" and "maximizing control".

AA had bad moves. But he went for it when he had to go for it. I don't see that being something Atkins or Shapiro ever do.

Did you see Jerry Dipoto's comments the other day?

“If we make winning the World Series our goal, we will do insane things that will cut the sustainability part of the project short. That’s not how we think. We think more broadly. We’re thinking over an extended period of time, and our goal would be that over that decade, you get to the postseason seven or eight times and are in a position to win it. In an ideal world you become one of the elite teams that go 10 in 10. The reality is, if what you’re doing is focusing year to year on what do we have to do to win the World Series this year, you might be one of the teams that’s laying in the mud and can’t get up for another decade."

He said if they win 54% of games each year, that's a success. That's sustainable. So 87.5 games per season. Therefore, puking away a playoff spot in the last two weeks of the season isn't a problem. Because he doesn't focus on the micro stuff like that. And fans shouldn't either.

I fully expect to hear something like that from Atkins and Shapiro this week, and it makes me never want to watch the Jays again. I will, because I'm a glutton for punishment, but I wish I could stop.

This article sums up my thoughts: Drellich: MLB teams should actually try to win instead of hawking 'sustainability'

 

[MK78]

Here's my comments on how I feel about each player.

Agree pretty much on everything you said.

 

[ktownhockey]

John is gone in my opinion.

That might be Atkins last bullet.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Not sure if serious because it's pretty obvious but just in case

“I felt like going to L.A. was like going to grad school,” Anthopoulos said, citing the chance to learn from Friedman and Farhan Zaidi, now president of baseball operations for the San Francisco Giants.

“When you’re exposed to the best in the industry, you’re going to get better, right?” Anthopoulos said. “It’s like Warren Buffett and a lot of other people say: Surround yourself with people that are better than you are. Andrew and Farhan made me better.”

Andrew Friedman's handprints are evident on all four teams in MLB playoffs

Atlanta Braves GM Alex Anthopoulos is one of several executives with ties to the Dodgers' Andrew Friedman, and both feel the scars of Houston's cheating in 2017.

www.latimes.com

You said:

"I doubt he turns into what he is today if he stayed in Toronto. He learned a lot from Friedman."

We can't possibly know that, and instead you give me a puff piece where he talks about how great it was working with those guys. It's called PR, of course he's gonna say nice things about them. What specifically did he learn from Friedman that you attribute his current success to that he didn't already know?

 

[canucksfan]

Personally, I'd much rather have a GM take risks to win vs a robot whose primary concern is "mitigating risk" and "maximizing control".

Did you see Jerry Dipoto's comments the other day?



I fully expect to hear something like that from Atkins and Shapiro this week, and it makes me never want to watch the Jays again. I will, because I'm a glutton for punishment, but I wish I could stop.

This article sums up my thoughts: Drellich: MLB teams should actually try to win instead of hawking 'sustainability'

Teams want long-term sustainability. The more a team makes the playoffs in the MLB, the better chance they have at winning the WS. If a team just tried for 1 or 2 years to make the playoffs, they need to rebuild, which can take years. Look at the Tigers.

 

[Ciao]

Here's my comments on how I feel about each player.

Springer - he's the glue to this team in many ways, hopefully his offensive production rebounds next year (a shame because this was the healthiest season he's ever had) [Prretty lousy glue. The TV commercials look good, but a clutch hit now and then wouldn't hurt.]

Bo - you're a god and the face of this franchise [A very good player, but not a God. Certainly the one player most worthy of holding onto.]

Vlad - he's obviously a good player but he's a much more flawed player than we would've thought in 2021. Has a lot to prove in next couple years if he wants that career-long contract [Maybe shedding 40 pounds would help his overall conditioning, his concentration and his hand-to-eye co-ordination. He looks lost at the plate and on the basepaths.]

Belt - if we can find someone like him next year who can play full-time that would be great. Shame he was platooned so much as he was very productive when he was actually in the lineup (terrible playoff series tho) [Time to retire. If he's a clutch hitter, we didn't see that when it counted.]

Kirk - he's still young but man there's no doubt in my mind that we gave away the wrong catcher. Kirk should've been traded last year and NOT Moreno. Kirk's offensive dropoff was a huge reason for this team's offensive blackhole but it also makes that Varsho-Moreno trade look even worse than it already is [Exactly, and more. It's nice that he walks and hits a lot of singles, but he needs to call a Uber to get around the bases. Once he gets on base, then what? Do you run over him or pull him for a pinch runner? He's an instant double play.]

Chapman - got unlucky this series but I'm glad we won't be seeing all his strikeouts next year, someone will be overpaying him in the offseason [Yeah, I think the fans are the ones that were unlucky. Chapman is the same guy he's always been. He's excellent at ending innings on both offence and defence.]

Varsho - I really hope he can bounce back offensively because otherwise we're stuck with this dude for god knows how long...his lack of production played a big role in this offense being so bad as he had major expectations. As of now, I cant believe we traded our #1 prospect (who was the number one prospect in all of baseball last yr) for a glorified Bradley Zimmer [I'd like him to play for the Argos. He has the right build, speed and looks like he would crash through a brick wall.]

KK - really hope we can bring this guy back for a couple more years. Every team needs a guy like him [Ditto. A keeper.]

Whitt/Espinal - wouldn't mind Espinal as a bench player but we need an upgrade from an aging Merrifield who is an FA [I wouldn't really miss either one of them.]

Biggio - I'm not a fan of him but I understand why they still keep him. [Meh. I like that he doesn't swing at balls. I don't like that he doesn't swing at strikes either. The master of being called out looking.]

Gausman/Berrios/Bassitt/Kikuchi - you guys carried this team all year please be this good next year too [Our salvation. Keep this group healthy and intact.]

Manoah - idk what's your deal man but if you don't want to pitch here someone else will... [He can go be a nut bar somewhere else.]

Hicks/Green - plz bring these two guys back [Maybe.]

Richards - you need to be cut [Yes.]

Rest of bullpen - please be good again too they were unhittable for the latter part of the year. Unlike other Jays fans, I'm fine with Romano in the back-end he isn't smooth sailing but he gets it done most of the time [mmmm . . . Maybe. What would be wrong with going up two strikes and finishing a batter off instead of running up the count, or not giving up so many walks and base hits after retiring the first two batters? Does every inning have to be more dramatic than an episode of Virgin River?]

Ryu - thanks for everything but it's time to move on I hope he lands another nice contract [Just not in the AL East, okay?]

My comments bolded, above.

 

[Roo]

We beat ourselves today. Taking out Berrios made no sense. Maybe if he was in a jam but there was only one runner on and he was dialed in. Vladdy picked off on 2nd, just embarrassing. Too many runners left in scoring position.

Surprising? Not so much.. the offense has been a problem all season, they just arent good enough.

 

[Ciao]

Not sure if Shapiro meddles. Maybe in the first few years but his focus last few years has been on renos and the complex in Dunedin.

As for AA, already said he wasn't going to stay once Beeston was let go.

Maybe, but this is the night to bitch and complain. They just got swept scoring an average of half a run per game. We can think straight some other time.

 

[canucksfan]

You said:

"I doubt he turns into what he is today if he stayed in Toronto. He learned a lot from Friedman."

We can't possibly know that, and instead you give me a puff piece where he talks about how great it was working with those guys. It's called PR, of course he's gonna say nice things about them. What specifically did he learn from Friedman that you attribute his current success to that he didn't already know?

AA isn't going to give specific reasons about what he learned while in the Dodgers organization. Friedman is one of the best in the MLB if not the best. He definitely improved by going there like everyone that comes out of the Dodger organization. Similar to the Rays.

It's common sense. So many good GMs have worked with Friedman and went on to have good success elsewhere.

AA made a lot of blunders in Toronto and he hasn't been making them with the Braves. Also helps taking over from a team with an incredible amount of young talent.

 

[Ciao]

Agree pretty much on everything you said.

Thanks. I'm so pissed off that I'm surprised anyone agrees with anything I might say tonight.

There's a time and place for everything, and in my World this is the time and place for wild, harmless, unrestrained bitterness.

It's a good thing I'm powerless.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

Teams want long-term sustainability. The more a team makes the playoffs in the MLB, the better chance they have at winning the WS. If a team just tried for 1 or 2 years to make the playoffs, they need to rebuild, which can take years. Look at the Tigers.

Really? Because the only WS Champions I can think of from the last ~15 years that have experienced real year-to-year sustainability are the Dodgers, Yankees, Astros and Cardinals, and they account for 5 of the last 15 champions.

And the Dodgers and Yankees achieved sustainability by spending more than every other team year in and year out, not by being prudent and risk-averse, so I wouldn't really count them. The Dodgers aren't shy to go out and make a massive trade or free agent signing.

Most of the time a team has a relatively short window and they do what it takes to capitalize on it.

So when GMs speak like Atkins does, you have to roll your eyes. These guys have never won and don't know how to win. Yet they talk like they have it all figured out.

 

[mikeyz]

Ridiculous hyperbole considering he sacrificed prospect capital for a short term competitive window. Despite all the troubles the Jays have had recently in the postseason… they’ve still gone to the postseason. Could always be a lot worse.

The same people pining for AA are the same people that denigrated his attempt to compete by making the Marlins/Mets trades. How can we realistically expect a Braves-like contender here when most of his core there has been in the organization longer than him?

Is it hyperbole? How many years did it take for the Jays to get back into the playoffs since he's been gone? and have they even won a playoff game?

 

[canucksfan]

Is it hyperbole? How many years did it take for the Jays to get back into the playoffs since he's been gone? and have they even won a playoff game?

He was gone in 2015 and they won a playoff series in 2016.

 

[mikeyz]

He was gone in 2015 and they won a playoff series in 2016.

99% of the 2016 team was AA's team.

 

[canucksfan]

Really? Because the only WS Champions I can think of from the last ~15 years that have experienced real year-to-year sustainability are the Dodgers, Yankees, Astros and Cardinals, and they account for 5 of the last 15 champions.

And the Dodgers and Yankees achieved sustainability by spending more than every other team year in and year out, not by being prudent and risk-averse, so I wouldn't really count them.

Most of the time a team has a relatively short window and they do what it takes to capitalize on it.

Even the Red Sox have had short windows, they just regrouped quickly between them.

Red Sox retooled with their core, Cubs had a nice core that finally won. Giants had a good core and retooled. You also missed the Braves. Nationals had some good teams and finally won.

Royals had a short peak. Just shows having a good solid core is very important.

 

[TorMapleJays]

LOL WHO IS CHANGING THEIR VOTES YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!!!

 

[LaP]

I’ll leave value to those who know more than me but I’d assume they would get proper value.
Maybe he’ll mature but doesn’t seem like a guy you can win with to me.
I’d build around Bichette.

It's fine but again like i said earlier you have to build around. You can't surround you star players, whoever they are, by 40-50 RBIs and 15-20 HR guys. You have to have clutch guys like Orlando Cabrera able to run batters in outside of your stars and atm the Jays have none.

It's one of the worst depth i've seen when it comes to running batters in and hitting HR. Yeah they are good defensively and score well in advanced stats taking defense into account but there's more than just that to baseball.

 

[GreytWun]

Of course, AA did, because he traded a lot of prospects to win which wasn't a bad thing because the team was aging. They had 2015 and 2016 to win, and that was it. He tried in 2013 and it backfired significantly.

AA did some good things while he was a Jay, but fans seem to forget some of the bad things he did. Trading Syndergaard, not developing young players, not signing high draft picks, and the Florida trade.

On the other side, I do believe Atkins needs to go. He has been given a chance and there's been no playoff success.

Anthopolous was GM here for 6 years (2009-2015).

He went for it multiple times to bring a winning team. 2012 didn't work out but it built the way for the 2015 team, despite KC having a horse shoe up there ass I think that year the Jays could have won the entire thing. 2016 was one of the most fun season to watch, I realistically thought we could win it all. AA brought really exciting baseball back to Toronto.

Those pieces he traded (besides Syndergaard) can you tell me which ones have gone on to be great players? Hoffman our best piece has gone on to produce a 5.5+ ERA, Castro has amounted to nothing becoming an average (maybe) reliever. Boyd? Norris?

Atkins has been GM here for 8 years now (2016-2023).

We had some brutal years after we traded everyone (messed up not trading Donaldson when he was healthy as they knew we were going to rebuild). Lots of losses but that is expected during rebuild. 2020 came, we made the playoffs when I don't think many thought we would, he got shutdown by Tampa. Mis-managed calls in that series as well. Good learning experience for the team.

2021 had high expectations (Great FA signings), gut wrenching missing the playoffs after a dominating offense showing, and good pitching. This felt like a year we would do damage.

2022 came, again high expectations based on the previous year except we made some more good signings so playoffs were expected. Well we made the playoffs and were the home team and completely fell apart, especially game two's epic collapse and again, mis-managed games.

Now this year.. I've already said enough in this thread about how pathetic this team was this year offensively. If not for the pitching we probably finish last place in the East. Playoffs were a joke. Atkins has had 8 years to right the ship and has failed.

 

[canucksfan]

99% of the 2016 team was AA's team.

I was somewhat joking/being a smartass.

2016 was mostly the core AA put together but they did add some nice pieces. Replaced Price with Happ. Picked up Saunders and added some good bullpen arms for cheap.

As for the original question management really turned the team around quickly. They only missed the playoffs for three years and made it in 2020. They have had very good success at making it but zero success in the playoffs. In the MLB it can take a long time to do a complete rebuild and the Jays have been successful at it.

 

[TorMapleJays]

Jays had 4 300 hitters and 5 ligit guys who could steal bases... 5 of 9 hitters could steal.