Red Sox/MLB 2023 Off-Season - Red Sox-Yankees trade

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DKH

Worst Poster/Awful Takes
Feb 27, 2002
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The fact that all of these guys have declined is embarrassing to the Red Sox. We've fallen so quickly.
But are they being used ? It seems pretty obvious Alex Cora has some if not a lot of power - they fired two coaches and ownership has a shaky reputation.

To take that job doesn’t sound like you get your own manager or even coaches - if 2 guys were fired then several weren’t - Brian O’Halloran got a new title

Anyone coming in is going to be handcuffed

What is new GM exactly going to be able to do? Paint the office ?

Give it to Eddie Romero jr & have him work with Cora
 

Johnnyduke

Registered User
Oct 30, 2007
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Seems even Raq doesn’t want the job.
What exactly is Sam Kennedy doing? Circumstances aside it's embarrassing for your own employee to "decline to interview" for the job. This couldn't be some side conversation where you find out if she has any interest? And I would also question why she would be releasing info that she declined to interview when it just makes this whole thing look even more chaotic.
 

Johnnyduke

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Oct 30, 2007
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Johnnyduke

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Oct 30, 2007
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"A dark horse internal candidate has emerged in the form of VP of amateur scouting & player development Paul Toboni, who has also interviewed, according to multiple sources. Toboni, 33, joined the Red Sox in Jan. 2015."

Paul Toboni?
 

sarge88

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Jan 29, 2003
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Billy Beane said it, what? 20 years ago?

Paraphrasing:

A GM’s job is to build a playoff team. What happens in the playoffs is luck/fortune.

He looks smarter with each passing year.

(And the more they add teams and/or rounds)
 

Johnnyduke

Registered User
Oct 30, 2007
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Who will the Red Sox get outbid by

Then we'll here how it was smart to not sign him to such a bad contract

The Dombrowski Phillies are everything the Red Sox should be. Star players driving them to the World Series.
 
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Blowfish

Count down ...
Jan 13, 2005
23,327
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I'm not the biggest bball fan but will watch if the Jays are in the playoffs. A question for bball fans...Why play 2000 + games an entire season and only have so few teams make the playoffs?

Probably obvious answer but part of the reason I can't watch the game.
 

GatorMike

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Jul 18, 2022
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Had a HOF executive, downgraded massively to Chaim Bloom and now "nobody" wants the job. Under proper ownership of a big market club Dombrowski should still be here. Blown out the door during a winning season after a record setting WS title and given no chance to regroup. All because the owner wanted to penny pinch.
At this point, Dave Dombrowski is what he is.

He's a very talented, HOF-caliber executive who upon taking a job, will almost immediately create a 4-6 year window of opportunity for his team to win a World Series.

The downside is that when that window of opportunity closes, your team is going to be left with an aging roster full of bloated contracts and a depleted farm system. This happened in Detroit, it happened in Boston, and it will eventually happen in Philadelphia.

I'm not saying his approach is bad, either. I'm saying it has a shelf life.

Yup, which is the biggest issue with analytics/moneyball

Yes, the law of averages works over a 162 game sample. But in the playoffs there aren't enough games for it to win out. You need "old school" contributions like home runs, strikouts from pitchers, innings pitched to save the pen, etc.
I don't think the terms "analytics" and "moneyball" are synonyms.

There are no analytics that will tell you that home runs or strikeouts or starting pitchers that throw a lot of innings are bad things.

Also, I don't understand Gammons' tweet. The Red Sox offered Eovaldi the same deal he eventually signed for with Texas, and he declined it.
 

Johnnyduke

Registered User
Oct 30, 2007
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I'm not the biggest bball fan but will watch if the Jays are in the playoffs. A question for bball fans...Why play 2000 + games an entire season and only have so few teams make the playoffs?

Probably obvious answer but part of the reason I can't watch the game.
This is an interesting take because I think too many teams make the baseball playoffs. I also think the baseball regular season of 162 games is absurd. It's too long/too much of a grind and doesn't have to be that many games when you are starting at the end of March some years. But the economics of the game would never allow for a shortening of the season. We can't have billionaires and millionaires fighting over how that would work.
 

Johnnyduke

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Oct 30, 2007
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At this point, Dave Dombrowski is what he is.

He's a very talented, HOF-caliber executive who upon taking a job, will almost immediately create a 4-6 year window of opportunity for his team to win a World Series.

The downside is that when that window of opportunity closes, your team is going to be left with an aging roster full of bloated contracts and a depleted farm system. This happened in Detroit, it happened in Boston, and it will eventually happen in Philadelphia.

I'm not saying his approach is bad, either. I'm saying it has a shelf life.
He was never given a chance in Boston to even retool. Maybe he would fail at it but to fire him not even a full season after a record setting WS title is just ridiculous. That's what makes ownership look bad. Firing a massively successful guy without giving him any chance to correct mistakes. Mistakes that still had the team with a winning record. We keep talking about how he leaves teams devoid of young talent and yet the best young talent on the Red Sox right now are all his guys. He has a track record of making good trades and not giving up the "wrong" guys.
 

BigBadBruins7708

Registered User
Dec 11, 2017
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Las Vegas
At this point, Dave Dombrowski is what he is.

He's a very talented, HOF-caliber executive who upon taking a job, will almost immediately create a 4-6 year window of opportunity for his team to win a World Series.

The downside is that when that window of opportunity closes, your team is going to be left with an aging roster full of bloated contracts and a depleted farm system. This happened in Detroit, it happened in Boston, and it will eventually happen in Philadelphia.

I'm not saying his approach is bad, either. I'm saying it has a shelf life.


I don't think the terms "analytics" and "moneyball" are synonyms.

There are no analytics that will tell you that home runs or strikeouts or starting pitchers that throw a lot of innings are bad things.

Also, I don't understand Gammons' tweet. The Red Sox offered Eovaldi the same deal he eventually signed for with Texas, and he declined it.

who are all these great stars that Dombrowski dealt as prospects? Yes, the horror of leaving a franchise with an MLB core under 25 of Betts, Bogaerts, Devers, Benintendi and a system with Casas, Chavis, Groome, Dalbec, Hernandez.

Yes, its great to have a top ranked farm system, but all it really amounts to is a stack of scratch off tickets. Trading potential winning tickets for a known winner isn't a bad thing, too many managers get paralyzed by FOMO
 

GatorMike

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Jul 18, 2022
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Woburn, MA
He was never given a chance in Boston to even retool. Maybe he would fail at it but to fire him not even a full season after a record setting WS title is just ridiculous. That's what makes ownership look bad. Firing a massively successful guy without giving him any chance to correct mistakes. Mistakes that still had the team with a winning record. We keep talking about how he leaves teams devoid of young talent and yet the best young talent on the Red Sox right now are all his guys. He has a track record of making good trades and not giving up the "wrong" guys.
What retooling was in the cards?

They had nothing of significant value to trade in the farm system (Players in A ball or the FCL rarely have a great deal of trade value). They had basically maxed out their payroll. They had hundreds of millions invested in contracts that were under water and basically untradeable.
 

Smitty93

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Dec 6, 2012
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who are all these great stars that Dombrowski dealt as prospects? Yes, the horror of leaving a franchise with an MLB core under 25 of Betts, Bogaerts, Devers, Benintendi and a system with Casas, Chavis, Groome, Dalbec, Hernandez.

Yes, its great to have a top ranked farm system, but all it really amounts to is a stack of scratch off tickets. Trading potential winning tickets for a known winner isn't a bad thing, too many managers get paralyzed by FOMO

I always looked at it more as poor asset management more so than trading a bunch of future stars away. There's a saying that Dombrowski always gets his guy, whether that's a trade or signing, but there's a cost to that.

Let's use home buying as an example. Let's say a house is valued at $500k, but you come in and buy it for $600k. That's fine, but there's an opportunity cost of that difference of $100k. Maybe you have to replace the roof or septic system, but now you don't have the money for it because you overpaid for the house.

That's how I look at Dombrowski. As @GatorMike said, by the time he left, there wasn't much of value in the farm and the payroll was maxed out with unmovable contracts. It's not about those prospects as contributors to the roster, it's about their value as assets and what you can utilize those assets for, whether that's direct contribution or trade.

I look at Sweeney the same way with the draft and draft picks. When you draft players that others don't value as highly as you do, you end up having to use other assets to build the team, which is then exacerbated by overpaying to get deals done, and you slowly dig yourself a bigger hole that's difficult to climb out of because eventually you don't have enough assets to solve your problems, which is the issue they've run into this year where between cap overages and lack of draft picks, it will be difficult to improve the team.
 

Johnnyduke

Registered User
Oct 30, 2007
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What retooling was in the cards?

They had nothing of significant value to trade in the farm system (Players in A ball or the FCL rarely have a great deal of trade value). They had basically maxed out their payroll. They had hundreds of millions invested in contracts that were under water and basically untradeable.
How am I supposed to predict what his options were for retooling? They gave him no time to do ANYTHING. He got fired in the middle of a WINNING season after winning a WS. It's not like he had a customary last place season like we are used to now. Maybe you just stick it out with him for a couple years while guys like Casas, Bello, Duran develop. If we go by the narrative that John Henry was maxed out on spending then Dombrowski wouldn't have been able to trade those guys or anyone really to begin with. And with his track record of not trading away young talent that actually turns into anything, sticking with him for a couple years would have been better than what ended up happening and the organization now being a complete dumpster with all of baseball mocking the job opportunity.

If John Henry woke up one day and decided he didn't want to spend like a big market team anymore that's on him. Maybe he could have been more flexible and given Dombrowski some time to try and manage the situation under those guidelines.
 
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BigBadBruins7708

Registered User
Dec 11, 2017
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Las Vegas
I always looked at it more as poor asset management more so than trading a bunch of future stars away. There's a saying that Dombrowski always gets his guy, whether that's a trade or signing, but there's a cost to that.

Let's use home buying as an example. Let's say a house is valued at $500k, but you come in and buy it for $600k. That's fine, but there's an opportunity cost of that difference of $100k. Maybe you have to replace the roof or septic system, but now you don't have the money for it because you overpaid for the house.

That's how I look at Dombrowski. As @GatorMike said, by the time he left, there wasn't much of value in the farm and the payroll was maxed out with unmovable contracts. It's not about those prospects as contributors to the roster, it's about their value as assets and what you can utilize those assets for, whether that's direct contribution or trade.

I look at Sweeney the same way with the draft and draft picks. When you draft players that others don't value as highly as you do, you end up having to use other assets to build the team, which is then exacerbated by overpaying to get deals done, and you slowly dig yourself a bigger hole that's difficult to climb out of because eventually you don't have enough assets to solve your problems, which is the issue they've run into this year where between cap overages and lack of draft picks, it will be difficult to improve the team.

And he never got the chance to refill the assets. He was fired as the reigning World Series winner. I dont understand the notion that he couldn't refill the system either, hell he brought in as many Top 100 prospects as the farm system genius Bloom did.

He sure as hell would've been able to move Price's money without using an MVP as a "sweetener"
 

Johnnyduke

Registered User
Oct 30, 2007
23,403
7,388
The Tigers went to the WS in 2006. They then slid back to a last place finish in the 2008. Tigers didn't conclude their only option was to fire Dombrowski. Nope. Instead he led them back to another WS in 2012 and other appearances in the ALCS. It's entirely inaccurate to say he has a shelf life of only 4-5 years. He was in Detroit for 13 freakin years. So they never won a WS, sue him.
 

BruinsFanSince94

The Perfect Fan ™
Sep 28, 2017
32,709
43,380
New England
I see Bloom Derange Syndrome is very relevant in here.

Sad that so many are rejecting the job but when you have a dipshit ownership group that won’t let you bring in any of your own people, this is the result.
 
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