Prospect Info: 2023 NHL Draft - Part 2 (Who Do You Want To Draft At #2)
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The Midnight Burrito
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Again, I'll ask you to source this quote. If it's the one I'm thinking of, you're using it out of context.
70sSanO
Registered User
It is tough to pigeon hole why a player is a bust. I’m guessing the game is too fast and a highly touted player can’t process it fast enough as a primary culprit.
Because the draft prospects are so young, teams will draft what a player will become not what they are.
I think that there are many players who are in the NHL that fail to reach their full potential because they are not constantly pushing themselves to identify weaknesses and improve in those areas.
We have all seen gifted players who are too stupid or lazy.
John
Because the draft prospects are so young, teams will draft what a player will become not what they are.
I think that there are many players who are in the NHL that fail to reach their full potential because they are not constantly pushing themselves to identify weaknesses and improve in those areas.
We have all seen gifted players who are too stupid or lazy.
John
I think it was from this quote from an anonymous scout in an Athletic article:
Scout 1: "For Fantilli, he was above expectations for me this season. And not that I thought his transition wasn’t going to be successful, I just didn’t see a Hobey Baker.
That (disappointing) world juniors was the outlier. The body, the speed, the compete (are excellent). I know he had awesome production but I think that came more from his compete level than his hockey sense, but that’s not going to hurt him. He has a similar game at the same age and probably a little better than (Quinton) Byfield."
Skill =/= Hockey Sense, Fantilli has excellent skill. The scouts all agree on that point, so it's not even up for debate. What is up for debate among scouts is how well he utilizes his teammates to create scoring opportunities. Carlsson does a better job of that right now, but Carlsson also doesn't have the skating ability and motor that Fantilli has at his disposal to fall back on.
The Midnight Burrito
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robbieboy3686
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- Jan 17, 2016
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Back to remind everyone, I’m so sure we draft fantilli and it’s not even close. That if we draft anyone else, I retire from these boards. Period.
Fantilli and Carlsson are both stud players - you really can't go wrong. But for me Fantilli is the obvious choice at two. He definitely has question marks which do scare me but overall I think his potential ceiling is so, so high. Higher than Carlsson's. He has every one of the fundamental things needed to make an elite hockey player and he has it in spades. Now the issues are there but IMO they are all teachable. With good coaching and strong leadership he can absolutely learn to make smarter choices on the ice and utilize his teammates. For me, the possibility that exists of having Fantilli putting everything together is just too great to pass up.
It's interesting how a lot of these guys who cover prospects for these various outlets as well as fans here and elsewhere poke at Fantilli's hockey IQ but i haven't seen much in the way of specific examples/plays in game situations of him making mistakes. i certainly haven't seen too many videos of that either. I'm not saying there isn't an issue at all, but with how much/often i'm reading about it i would've definitely expected to see more concrete examples of what people are talking about.
- Apr 9, 2012
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Being better at play making doesn't mean higher hockey IQ. Hockey sense is composed of a lot more than that, but seems like a lot of people equate the two things.
Fantilli seems to have plenty of hockey sense.
Fantilli seems to have plenty of hockey sense.
The Midnight Burrito
True Fan
Ok, but predicting that we'll draft the consensus #2 kid at 2nd overall probably isn't making Nostradamus nervous or anything.
I think some scouts are just a little worried that Fantilli will suffer from tunnel vision in the NHL and fall back on his speed, skill, and effort rather than utilize his linemates effectively. It seems like an overblown concern to be honest, any light digging into Fantilli's background and work ethic will show that he takes critical feedback from coaches very seriously and works on his weaknesses until they are strengths. By all accounts he's a genuinely humble kid with an incredible drive to improve.
I recommend this entire article from a few months back on Fantilli, but here's a great excerpt:
He knew that Adam was going to be a hockey player by minor bantam not because of his talent — “he’s never been naturally gifted with a natural skill set, it is something that he has worked at,” he’ll say — but because whenever he was challenged with something negative, he’d do everything within his power to turn it into a positive.
When D’Ammizio told him, “You know, Adam, you’ve got a powerful stride and you can skate fast but you’re not a great skater, you’re not very smooth,” he took it upon himself to reach out to Dawn Braid, one of the game’s preeminent skating coaches, and work until it was one of his biggest strengths.
When D’Ammizio told him, “You know, Adam, you need to improve on your shot, you’re not getting your shot off fast enough, you don’t have a very good one-timer,” Adam responded “OK, no problem,” and has spent every day since shooting pucks and turning his release and one-timer into strengths.
When D’Ammizio told him, “You know, Adam, you’re having success right now because you’re physically stronger than everybody, not because you’re more skilled or smarter, you need to work on being smarter,” Adam responded, “Oh yeah, OK, let’s do video, let’s watch all my games, let’s watch other people.”
“He went to an eye doctor so that he could help his peripheral vision. He’s reading numbers off the screen to help his peripheral vision,” D’Ammizio said, laughing. “And he has done that throughout his life and he’ll continue doing that. He’ll just find a way.”
I recommend this entire article from a few months back on Fantilli, but here's a great excerpt:
He knew that Adam was going to be a hockey player by minor bantam not because of his talent — “he’s never been naturally gifted with a natural skill set, it is something that he has worked at,” he’ll say — but because whenever he was challenged with something negative, he’d do everything within his power to turn it into a positive.
When D’Ammizio told him, “You know, Adam, you’ve got a powerful stride and you can skate fast but you’re not a great skater, you’re not very smooth,” he took it upon himself to reach out to Dawn Braid, one of the game’s preeminent skating coaches, and work until it was one of his biggest strengths.
When D’Ammizio told him, “You know, Adam, you need to improve on your shot, you’re not getting your shot off fast enough, you don’t have a very good one-timer,” Adam responded “OK, no problem,” and has spent every day since shooting pucks and turning his release and one-timer into strengths.
When D’Ammizio told him, “You know, Adam, you’re having success right now because you’re physically stronger than everybody, not because you’re more skilled or smarter, you need to work on being smarter,” Adam responded, “Oh yeah, OK, let’s do video, let’s watch all my games, let’s watch other people.”
“He went to an eye doctor so that he could help his peripheral vision. He’s reading numbers off the screen to help his peripheral vision,” D’Ammizio said, laughing. “And he has done that throughout his life and he’ll continue doing that. He’ll just find a way.”
After all the back and forth on Fantilli/Carlson, I think the only thing I can conclude with any certainty is whichever way we go, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth on this board for a good while! 
Hockey Duckie
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From the Athletic:
Scout 1: For Fantilli, he was above expectations for me this season. And not that I thought his transition wasn’t going to be successful, I just didn’t see a Hobey Baker.
That (disappointing) world juniors was the outlier. The body, the speed, the compete (are excellent). I know he had awesome production but I think that came more from his compete level than his hockey sense, but that’s not going to hurt him. He has a similar game at the same age and probably a little better than (Quinton) Byfield.
Hockey Duckie
Registered User
Counter
Motor =/= skating ability and physicality. Carlsson is ranked in the top-3 for a reason and having a high motor helps propel a player to that status. It's disingenuous to say Carlsson doesn't have equal motor to Fantilli. Getzlaf doesn't possess high level skating, but his high level IQ didn't prevent him from succeeding in the NHL. It must be nice having a high level IQ to fall back upon.
Carlsson was highly productive without elite speed and constant highlight reel hits against men in the SHL. He took it to another level in the SHL playoffs. He showed it off again against men at the WC as a 1C and didn't look out of place. Despite Fantilli having far more scoring chances at the WC, Carlsson was the one who potted more points in fewer games played.
Fantilli lacks pacing skills and playmaking skills, or are you re-categorizing what a skill should and shoudn't be? He plays at only one speed, Ludicrous speed, and his teammates can't keep up with him. If Fantilli is playing hero puck all the time, then how does he develop the skill to utilize his teammates? Maybe if he slows down, then he could also be a bit more accurate with his shot.
Many scouts believe Fantilli will grow out of hero puck play. I think so too, but how much? Fantilli's speed, physicality, and puck hound tenacity (due to his speed) are elements the Ducks can use in their top-6. We already have a player like Carlsson on the team in McTavish. If Fantilli's skills/hockey sense doesn't translate to the NHL very well, then it's okay b/c Anaheim already has highly skilled players in pace and playmaking in Zegras and McTavish.
I'm happy with either player, but I'm still pissed off that we missed out on Bedard b/c this is the second time the Ducks have missed out on a generational player. The chances those players become available in the draft when the Ducks suck terribly doesn't happen very often.
All Mighty
Registered User
In his interview with Kent French after the press conference, Verbeek was asked by French if he knows who he's taking at #2. Verbeek responded with "I think so" in a tongue-in-cheek kind of way. In other words, it sounds like he's about made up his mind.
Deuce22
Registered User
I'm sure Verbeek and company are factoring this into their decision.
It's not at all disingenuous to say that Carlsson doesn't have equal motor to Fantilli. It's completely observable to the naked eye. Fantilli has an elite motor and is ranked pretty consistently as having one of the highest compete levels in the entire draft class. It's not a knock on Carlsson to acknowledge Fantilli is stronger in that area.
What absolutely is disingenuous is to compare point totals for the WC between the two and act like its comparable when one was on the top line every night and the other got 4th line minutes for most of the tournament. Not a fair comparison.
Fantilli does not lack playmaking ability, I'm not sure where you're even getting that from. Carlsson shows better playmaking right now but that doesn't mean that Fantilli isn't a good playmaker. As for the definition of skills it typically refers to technical skills like skating and puckhandling. I feel like you know this stuff but might be arguing for the sake of having an argument here.
Hockey Duckie
Registered User
Are you completely omitting that Fantilli had far more scoring chances than Carlsson at the WC and wasn't able to finish? Yes, yes you did.
Fantilli's motor is visual such as skating and being tenaciously physical. Carlsson's motor is cerebral such as game manipulation and anticipation.
You changed skill to ability for your own convenience. For Fantilli, it's skating skill and puck handling skill. For Carlsson, it's playmaking ability. I think you're just biased with "individual skill" over "team skill". Fantilli is lacking playmaking skills and will need to improve that skill. If it isn't a skill, then Fantilli's has a lower chance of improving an elite playmaking ability just like Carlsson will never have that elite skating ability.
There are differences between Fantilli and Carlsson. Both are high level players, but built differently. You don't think they are and that's your hang up.
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I'm not sure I follow your logic that Fantilli creating more scoring chances is a bad thing. He was actively creating those scoring chances with low quality minutes and linemates, so that's honestly more impressive if you ask me. If your argument is that Carlsson played better because he executed on fewer chances, then that doesn't make sense either. For one, why is it more impressive to generate fewer scoring chances? Secondly, if you look at Carlsson's three goals, one was basically a tap-in to a wide open net and the other was a errant pass that deflected off of a defender's skate. So I'm not sure how those examples prove the point that Carlsson is somehow can execute better on his opportunities if that's the point you're making. The argument just doesn't make sense and you can't compare one player's points with another in an apple's to apple's comparison, they had vastly different opportunities and roles throughout the tournament.
As for the motor thing, you're just inventing terminology here to suit your needs. Saying that Carlsson's motor is cerebral doesn't make any sense whatsoever. We use motor to talk about the way a player utilizes hustle/speed/compete on the ice. The same goes for skills, I chose to use playmaking ability as a term rather than skills so that we could differentiate the concepts that we're talking about here.
There are big differences in the way that Fantilli and Carlsson play the game and the tools they have to work with. At no point have I said that they are built the same despite your assertion to the contrary. In fact, I'm the one in here arguing that their performances at the WC can't be compared 1-to-1. I think Carlsson is a high end prospect, I think he utilizes his teammates better than Fantilli and plays a positionally sound game. I also think it's absolutely fair to say that he doesn't have the motor or compete level that Fantilli has because Fantilli is truly elite in that area. I would prefer the Ducks to draft Fantilli, I've been open about that. But I'm not secretly biased against Carlsson.
As for the motor thing, you're just inventing terminology here to suit your needs. Saying that Carlsson's motor is cerebral doesn't make any sense whatsoever. We use motor to talk about the way a player utilizes hustle/speed/compete on the ice. The same goes for skills, I chose to use playmaking ability as a term rather than skills so that we could differentiate the concepts that we're talking about here.
There are big differences in the way that Fantilli and Carlsson play the game and the tools they have to work with. At no point have I said that they are built the same despite your assertion to the contrary. In fact, I'm the one in here arguing that their performances at the WC can't be compared 1-to-1. I think Carlsson is a high end prospect, I think he utilizes his teammates better than Fantilli and plays a positionally sound game. I also think it's absolutely fair to say that he doesn't have the motor or compete level that Fantilli has because Fantilli is truly elite in that area. I would prefer the Ducks to draft Fantilli, I've been open about that. But I'm not secretly biased against Carlsson.
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robbieboy3686
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- Jan 17, 2016
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There’s never been a decision other than fantilli at #2 I don’t understand how this is even debated
I was one of the few who had us picking Big Mac the entire way too. Had us trading Montour and Theo. I seem to understand what we’re going to do; before we do it.
Deuce22
Registered User
I think you’re right about Ducks drafting Fantilli, but do think Michkov will be the better player.
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