So looks like Leo is going to get a chance at the NHL right out of the gate, I think it makes sense with Lundy likely missing most of the season which sucks. I also believe they said they are looking to add another D.
Forward group actually looks solid, and can compete, but the D needs at least another #4/#5 shutdown guy.
The whole Z to wing thing coming from Verbeek sorta confirms what we have assumed here on the forum. What has me wondering is if it will effect contract negotiations with Zegras. Verbeek sees him more for the wing due to McTavish and Leo. He has been successful both at C and the wing, and it’s hard to really measure the stats at C because even when he was listed as a C in a game he had Rico or Strome taking face offs for him and playing C.
Without including Carlsson, we improved our Top-6 and slightly improve our depth for this season. McTavish becoming a 2C last year makes a significant difference in talent down the middle. Adding Carlsson truly adds more talent depth, but he's still an unknown quantity.
Potential lineup pre-Lundy injury (No Carlsson, 14F)
Killorn-Zegras-Terry
Rico-McTavish-Strome
Vatratno-Lundy-Silf
Jones-Groulx-Carrick
extras: McGinn, Leason
Potential lineup post-Lundy injury (No Carlsson, 13F)
Killorn-Zegras-Terry
Rico-McTavish-Jones
Vatrano-Strome-Silf
McGinn-Groulx-Carrick
extras: Leason
AHL: Nesterenko, Regenda
I actually like Jones with McTavish because they looked like they have good chemistry from last year.
I think Carlsson who was the 2ndOA may not be in the same boat at the prospects who need to develop more. Verbeek and Co may feel he is better to develop in the NHL or AHL but will have the SHL to fall back upon.
I find it intriguing also but want what’s best for the player. Can’t screw this up even if it means him staying another year in the SHL.
I think the plan could be to ease him into that 3C role with maybe Strome starting there then move to wing when Leo is ready and more comfortable . Similar to how McTavish came into the league.
McTavish was in a similar situation two seasons ago, being the #3OA and in a man's body at 6'0 and 207 lbs. The org was planning on easing him at the NHL level, but only at wing as an 18-year old. There were too many wingers set to return and limiting McTavish's minutes. So McTavish was sent back to the OHL, since he couldn't play in the AHL due to AHL-NHL agreement. It was a great move for McTavish, who has been playing mostly wing in his D-1 and D+0 seasons outside of international games. McTavish also played against men in the Swiss 2nd league, NL-B. Being sent back down to the CHL, McTavish played center for the whole season and then some.
Carlsson has been playing wing for the past two seasons. If we want him at center, then we should consider developing him at center. Also, he's still not filled out physically like McTavish.
I don't mind gauging Carlsson against NHL play, but it does conflict with "preach patience, won't rush prospects" idea. I do like the overripen philosophy, especially since we've been pushing youths up to the NHL club due to mass injuries when didn't have depth. Losing Lundy creates an NHL spot for Carlsson, but I also think we have depth in a development season.
Just identifying PV's idea of overripening prospects and "preach patience, won't rush prospects" with an 18-year old SHL prospect going to the NHL. I don't mind Carlsson staying in NA, but I think it's better if he were to stay in the SHL the whole season as a top-6C from the start. Orebro's got a great development program to where it got Carlsson drafted #2OA. I think Carlsson's development as an NHL top-6 C is faster staying in the SHL for a year from the get go.
If Carlsson were a CHL product, then gauging a CHL prospect is the norm and the development process isn't as great as the SHL. I didn't mind it when McTavish played nine NHL games, but was glad he was sent back to the CHL to play center instead of trying to find time at wing at the NHL level. Also, the CHL plays similar amount of games played with the NHL and AHL along with similar season start dates. The SHL plays about half of the schedule, similar to the NCAA.
Because Carlsson belongs in the SHL, their season (and pre-season) starts early. We rob that development time from Orebro and Carlsson. This makes me appreciate why the NCAA prospects report back to college and can't participate in NHL training camps. Those NCAA prospects get consistency of development without being treated like talent to be gauged and moved around different leagues if you can't fit. That consistency and fewer games allows NCAA prospects to develop physically better than CHL prospects. If we drafted Fantilli, I was onboard on him returning an extra season with Michigan to physically develop b/c I expect Fantilli to be hitting everything in the NHL and he needs that extra bulk.
Orebro already has plans to have Carlsson as a top-6C right from the start, from what's been shared online. If the Ducks were to follow the usual protocol of brining in young centers, then we're going to start him off at wing. We are simply gauging Carlsson with NHL play.
From PV's quote, there's a possibility that Carlsson gets sent back to the SHL if he can't hack it at the NHL and AHL levels. I've seen this movie before in Lundestrom, where I believe we stunted his offensive growth. We're gauging his play on NA ice at the expense of a fuller developmental year as a top-6C with Orebro. I'm not expecting Carlsson playing center often next year with Anaheim. And with Carlsson saying he doesn't want to play in the AHL, it complicates matters to where I'd rather have Carlsson in the SHL all the while. If Carlsson is willing to accept AHL duties and be a top-6C with the Gulls, then I'm alright with Carlsson being on NA ice being gauged.
Lundestrom
Sweden
Year
Season
League
Games
G
A
Pts
PPG
Plus/Minus
2016-17
D-1
J20 Superelit
10
3
4
7
0.70
3
SHL
45
3
3
6
0.13
-5
2017-18
D+0
SHL
42
6
9
15
0.36
7
2018-19
D+1
SHL
17
2
7
9
0.53
5
SHL Playoffs
10
2
6
8
0.80
-2
2019-20
D+2
n/a
2020-21
D+3
HockeyAllsvenskan
12
5
6
11
0.92
7
Ever since Lundy was drafted, he never had a long enough burn in the SHL (Sweden 1st tier) or HA (Sweden 2nd tier). We can see spurts of offense, but only in spurts.
Lundestrom
North America
Year
Season
League
Games
G
A
Pts
PPG
Plus/Minus
2018-19
D+1
NHL
15
0
2
2
0.13
-1
AHL
12
0
6
6
0.50
-6
2019-20
D+2
NHL
15
0
4
4
0.27
-2
AHL
43
6
15
21
0.49
-6
2020-21
D+3
NHL
41
6
3
9
0.22
-9
2021-22
D+4
NHL
80
16
13
29
0.36
-3
2022-23
D+5
NHL
64
4
10
14
0.22
-13
On NA soil, we weren't developing him to be offensive at all because we cherished his defense so very much from the very start.
The forward group is pretty solid, and can compete, but the D is still an issue, and that will effect the progress of the forward group if not given more depth as well. Stephens said they are going after another D, so we shall see.
He has to start somewhere on the NHL level. A 3C role would be ideal to start in the NHL, can also split ice time between the 2C and 3C. It's not like he will be getting bottom 6 mins since he'll be getting plenty of PP time.
I don't know that he's expecting to as much as he's striving to. It's obviously a coach's intention to make the playoffs, but he doesn't come across to me like a guy that's blind to the holes in this roster.
Also, it's typical coach speak. You expect a guy that was just hired to tell the media he expects to finish in the bottom 5? I'm sure Verbeek would be pleased about that.
Just identifying PV's idea of overripening prospects and "preach patience, won't rush prospects" with an 18-year old SHL prospect going to the NHL. I don't mind Carlsson staying in NA, but I think it's better if he were to stay in the SHL the whole season as a top-6C from the start. Orebro's got a great development program to where it got Carlsson drafted #2OA. I think Carlsson's development as an NHL top-6 C is faster staying in the SHL for a year from the get go.
If Carlsson were a CHL product, then gauging a CHL prospect is the norm and the development process isn't as great as the SHL. I didn't mind it when McTavish played nine NHL games, but was glad he was sent back to the CHL to play center instead of trying to find time at wing at the NHL level. Also, the CHL plays similar amount of games played with the NHL and AHL along with similar season start dates. The SHL plays about half of the schedule, similar to the NCAA.
Because Carlsson belongs in the SHL, their season (and pre-season) starts early. We rob that development time from Orebro and Carlsson. This makes me appreciate why the NCAA prospects report back to college and can't participate in NHL training camps. Those NCAA prospects get consistency of development without being treated like talent to be gauged and moved around different leagues if you can't fit. That consistency and fewer games allows NCAA prospects to develop physically better than CHL prospects. If we drafted Fantilli, I was onboard on him returning an extra season with Michigan to physically develop b/c I expect Fantilli to be hitting everything in the NHL and he needs that extra bulk.
Orebro already has plans to have Carlsson as a top-6C right from the start, from what's been shared online. If the Ducks were to follow the usual protocol of brining in young centers, then we're going to start him off at wing. We are simply gauging Carlsson with NHL play.
From PV's quote, there's a possibility that Carlsson gets sent back to the SHL if he can't hack it at the NHL and AHL levels. I've seen this movie before in Lundestrom, where I believe we stunted his offensive growth. We're gauging his play on NA ice at the expense of a fuller developmental year as a top-6C with Orebro. I'm not expecting Carlsson playing center often next year with Anaheim. And with Carlsson saying he doesn't want to play in the AHL, it complicates matters to where I'd rather have Carlsson in the SHL all the while. If Carlsson is willing to accept AHL duties and be a top-6C with the Gulls, then I'm alright with Carlsson being on NA ice being gauged.
Lundestrom
Sweden
Year
Season
League
Games
G
A
Pts
PPG
Plus/Minus
2016-17
D-1
J20 Superelit
10
3
4
7
0.70
3
SHL
45
3
3
6
0.13
-5
2017-18
D+0
SHL
42
6
9
15
0.36
7
2018-19
D+1
SHL
17
2
7
9
0.53
5
SHL Playoffs
10
2
6
8
0.80
-2
2019-20
D+2
n/a
2020-21
D+3
HockeyAllsvenskan
12
5
6
11
0.92
7
Ever since Lundy was drafted, he never had a long enough burn in the SHL (Sweden 1st tier) or HA (Sweden 2nd tier). We can see spurts of offense, but only in spurts.
Lundestrom
North America
Year
Season
League
Games
G
A
Pts
PPG
Plus/Minus
2018-19
D+1
NHL
15
0
2
2
0.13
-1
AHL
12
0
6
6
0.50
-6
2019-20
D+2
NHL
15
0
4
4
0.27
-2
AHL
43
6
15
21
0.49
-6
2020-21
D+3
NHL
41
6
3
9
0.22
-9
2021-22
D+4
NHL
80
16
13
29
0.36
-3
2022-23
D+5
NHL
64
4
10
14
0.22
-13
On NA soil, we weren't developing him to be offensive at all because we cherished his defense so very much from the very start.
I don't know that he's expecting to as much as he's striving to. It's obviously a coach's intention to make the playoffs, but he doesn't come across to me like a guy that's blind to the holes in this roster.
Also, it's typical coach speak. You expect a guy that was just hired to tell the media he expects to finish in the bottom 5? I'm sure Verbeek would be pleased about that.
A bit coach speak and a bit of psychological priming. Cronin wants the team to improve. Falling short of the playoffs is still a success for him and Verbeek as well as keeps from inviting McIlvane to the NHL talks.
Initially, I was just shocked when I heard playoffs. Now, I think it's a good psyche move by Cronin to induce more production from everyone. It kinda reminds me of how Murray said the whole team needs to buy in after the 2020-21 season. The start of the 2021-22 season was a blast and thinking playoffs. It's unfortunate Murray couldn't support the team due to his alcoholism, which forced him out of the org early into the season in Nov.
That 2021-22 team was built from the net out. This year's team seems to be built from the forwards back to the net. Let's hope the additions of Drysdale, Gudas, and LaCombe are a boon for the team.
I like the idea of pairing up Z and Mac, and then Carlsson and Terry on another line, really gives us depth. Can always make changes down the road. But this is a good start, and both lines have very capable vet wingers for support.
The opposition D will have to pick their poison, then the 3rd line with Vatrano and Strome against lesser competition, could work out very well.
Z - Mac - Killer
Rico - Leo - Terry
Jones - Stroke - Frank the Tank
McGinn - Groulx - Silf
I like the idea of pairing up Z and Mac, and then Carlsson and Terry on another line, really gives us depth. Can always make changes down the road. But this is a good start, and both lines have very capable vet wingers for support.
The opposition D will have to pick their poison, then the 3rd line with Vatrano and Strome against lesser competition, could work out very well.
Z - Mac - Killer
Rico - Leo - Terry
Jones - Stroke - Frank the Tank
McGinn - Groulx - Silf
I like the idea of pairing up Z and Mac, and then Carlsson and Terry on another line, really gives us depth. Can always make changes down the road. But this is a good start, and both lines have very capable vet wingers for support.
The other added benefit of Z-Mac is that I hope Z can force McTavish to want to be a goal scorer. Mac was too tentative on shooting and played passer often, like Getzlaf. Z might have fun with Mac-Kill too, since both love living in the paint or grinding out pucks along the boards. Plus, Z can expect to get the puck back from time to time with Mac. Z won't expect the puck back from Terry often, but those two have great chemistry with Terry being the finisher.
I read this, but it doesn't mesh with Carlsson's tryout at the NHL level. And if he can't hack it at the NHL level, then AHL level. If not the AHL, then back to Orebro.
Verbeek said:
"As I told some of these guys, 'Listen, skill-wise and probably thinking-wise, you can play in the NHL. But strength-wise and speed-wise, you can't, so those are the things that you've got to really get after in the summertime to make sure you're ready for the NHL.'"
Right now, Carlsson is a shade under 200 lbs. IIRC, new HC Cronin can see Carlsson around 220 lbs. Continuing to develop in the SHL with Orebro for another year and at center would be the ideal "won't rush prospects" M.O.
Testing out Carlsson at the NHL level runs contrary to the "preach patience, won't rush prospects" message. We have enough spare parts to cover Lundy's loss to not rush Carlsson, but it's also intriguing that we can see Carlsson at 3C. If Carlsson is playing wing with the NHL club, then I'm lost with move since the org sees Carlsson as a center.
I think you are missing a key piece of that quote though, because once you put this part into context, it makes sense and meshes fine:
"But strength-wise and speed-wise, you can't, so those are the things that you've got to really get after in the summertime to make sure you're ready for the NHL.'"
He wants these guys to be not only skilled enough but body maturity plays a big role too. I think we've seen that with quite a few guys who have all the skill to play but maybe are a bit undersized or behind the play.
Doesnt mean you dont test these guys out to see if they have all 4 of skill, IQ, strength, speed, especially if they are a top end prospect who might be borderline. But hes saying hes not going to rush them into playing in the NHL if they dont check all of those boxes.
Which is why I think a 3C role may be more ideal, or let him start at 3LW with a vet at C to help him along. You can't just throw him into a Top 6 role on day one, but I think he is a good enough prospect to give him a start at 3C, where he'll face lesser competition and will still get the ice time and develop in his natural position.
Eventually though once Leo established himself, would like to see those pairings, think they can be a real success. The idea of Zegras and Mac possibly not being our top line or only top line, makes me very excited, since we will have some nice depth.
I think you are missing a key piece of that quote though, because once you put this part into context, it makes sense and meshes fine:
"But strength-wise and speed-wise, you can't, so those are the things that you've got to really get after in the summertime to make sure you're ready for the NHL.'"
He wants these guys to be not only skilled enough but body maturity plays a big role too. I think we've seen that with quite a few guys who have all the skill to play but maybe are a bit undersized or behind the play.
Doesnt mean you dont test these guys out to see if they have all 4 of skill, IQ, strength, speed, especially if they are a top end prospect who might be borderline. But hes saying hes not going to rush them into playing in the NHL if they dont check all of those boxes.
Actually, that's the reason why I think Carlsson needed an extra year in the SHL. The SHL plays far fewer games than the NHL. This would allow prospects to develop physically in-season, like NCAA players, along with developing in the summer. The org notices Carlsson has a nice frame that still needs filling out, as he's under 200 lbs. The org can see him around 220 lbs. That extra year in the SHL while playing a top-6C role (probably 1C) would be a huge benefit to Carlsson physically. And if his physical body improves, then so too his skating will improve. When Carlsson's SHL season ends, then his summer is longer to work out, provided he doesn't play any NHL or AHL games.
NA ice (NHL, AHL, and CHL) all play similar amount of regular season games (68 - 82). SHL plays 52 games and NCAA plays about 36-38 games in about the same schedule period with the NHL, AHL, and CHL. Rest is a significant part of body building. Summer time is the only time to improve physically for NHL, AHL, and CHL players.
From NHL.com: "Carlsson was only 5-foot-8 in his U-16 season, but now is 6-foot-2, 194 pounds." Orebro helped Carlsson physically develop. An extra year of physical development while playing top-6C feels like a faster way to become NHL established.
Which is why I think a 3C role may be more ideal, or let him start at 3LW with a vet at C to help him along. You can't just throw him into a Top 6 role on day one, but I think he is a good enough prospect to give him a start at 3C, where he'll face lesser competition and will still get the ice time and develop in his natural position.
Eventually though once Leo established himself, would like to see those pairings, think they can be a real success. The idea of Zegras and Mac possibly not being our top line or only top line, makes me very excited, since we will have some nice depth.
Therein lies the rub. Play 3C at NHL level or top-6C in SHL or AHL? I think I read somewhere that Carlsson might have a 1C spot with Orebro b/c their 1C left to another team this past summer.
Carlsson has played wing with Orebro for the past two seasons. Are we stunting his growth playing him at 3C with 3rd line minutes as opposed to playing top-6C minutes with more offensive players?
Actually, that's the reason why I think Carlsson needed an extra year in the SHL. The SHL plays far fewer games than the NHL. This would allow prospects to develop physically in-season, like NCAA players, along with developing in the summer. The org notices Carlsson has a nice frame that still needs filling out, as he's under 200 lbs. The org can see him around 220 lbs. That extra year in the SHL while playing a top-6C role (probably 1C) would be a huge benefit to Carlsson physically. And if his physical body improves, then so too his skating will improve. When Carlsson's SHL season ends, then his summer is longer to work out, provided he doesn't play any NHL or AHL games.
NA ice (NHL, AHL, and CHL) all play similar amount of regular season games (68 - 82). SHL plays 52 games and NCAA plays about 36-38 games in about the same schedule period with the NHL, AHL, and CHL. Rest is a significant part of body building. Summer time is the only time to improve physically for NHL, AHL, and CHL players.
From NHL.com: "Carlsson was only 5-foot-8 in his U-16 season, but now is 6-foot-2, 194 pounds." Orebro helped Carlsson physically develop. An extra year of physical development while playing top-6C feels like a faster way to become NHL established.
Ya, but heres my guess. They saw Carlsson in prospect camp and got a baseline. Height, weight, endurance, all the jazz. They think once hes fully matured he will be 220, cool, thats about 25lbs or so. If he started on a weight and nutrition plan at prospect camp, he could be 204+lbs by Ducks camp.
That also doesnt mean hes not already strong enough to play at this level though. Its possible that he gets in a few games, they see his skill, IQ, strength and speed are where they need to be to compete and not get ran over.
If thats the case, no need to send him anywhere. But until he plays against NHL guys, its going to be difficult to tell if hes NHL ready. You will be able to tell in camp to a degree, and maybe thats all they need. But if hes further along than anyone knows, and he sticks to the weight and diet plans they give him, no telling where he could be.
that's why, to me, PV's statements still mesh with this situation.
Without including Carlsson, we improved our Top-6 and slightly improve our depth for this season. McTavish becoming a 2C last year makes a significant difference in talent down the middle. Adding Carlsson truly adds more talent depth, but he's still an unknown quantity.
Potential lineup pre-Lundy injury (No Carlsson, 14F)
Killorn-Zegras-Terry
Rico-McTavish-Strome
Vatratno-Lundy-Silf
Jones-Groulx-Carrick
extras: McGinn, Leason
Potential lineup post-Lundy injury (No Carlsson, 13F)
Killorn-Zegras-Terry
Rico-McTavish-Jones
Vatrano-Strome-Silf
McGinn-Groulx-Carrick
extras: Leason
AHL: Nesterenko, Regenda
I actually like Jones with McTavish because they looked like they have good chemistry from last year.
Therein lies the rub. Play 3C at NHL level or top-6C in SHL or AHL? I think I read somewhere that Carlsson might have a 1C spot with Orebro b/c their 1C left to another team this past summer.
Carlsson has played wing with Orebro for the past two seasons. Are we stunting his growth playing him at 3C with 3rd line minutes as opposed to playing top-6C minutes with more offensive players?
You play 3c and are with better orginizatjonal fitness trainers, your teammates for your career etc.He might put on 10 lbs of muscle this off season we don’t know.
The forward group is pretty solid, and can compete, but the D is still an issue, and that will effect the progress of the forward group if not given more depth as well. Stephens said they are going after another D, so we shall see.
I doubt we are getting a top 4 D added to the roster. I would guess we might see a Kulikov-esque type addition as teams start to round out their rosters but its going to be a Rutta/Forbort type guy who is good enough for bottom pairing minutes and will likely see the revolving door that will be White/Hagg/AHL Guy #1/AHL Guy #2.
A lot is going to be asked of Fowler/Gudas/Drysdale
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