2023-24 Roster Thread #8: A Cam York State of Mind

[Larry44]

With Bonk, he had a couple of intangibles going for him. Because of his Dad, he knows the pro game. Big advantage for future development. Secondly he’s playing for the Hunters in London. They have a history of bringing players along there. Additionally, I’d be willing to bet that DB had a good chat with Dale Hunter about everything Bonk before the draft. Briere knew what he was getting with Bonk.

On the TSN draft show, Jason Bukala, whose opinions are pretty solid, said Bonk was one of his favourite prospects of the whole draft by his good D play and hockey sense. He also loved Michkov pick and had him close to Bedard the previous year.

Here’s his mid season rankings

Scout's Analysis: Ranking the top 32 prospects for the 2024 NHL Draft

All that said, and I like Bonk, but they should have taken the gift of Perrault and moved up in the 2nd round to take one of the remaining D who could turn out just as good as Bonk.

 

[deadhead]

I would think that Torts and Briere sat down and decided on the philosophy behind the rebuild last summer. Briere had to first decide if he could work with Torts (and whether Hilferty would be willing to eat the money while paying AV). Once the answer was yes, then it was about what direction the rebuild should take.

The up tempo game that Torts has installed this season probably isn't a coincidence, but the result of those talks - and it does put a premium on defensive IQ - the more aggressive they play, the more important back checking and defensive positioning becomes as players are caught up ice.

I think this has both exposed players on the existing roster and influenced their draft philosophy. TK and Tippett get caught out of position frequently, but have the speed to recover, Laughton has been exposed. Cates is better suited to wing as this requires more speed at center. Couts is still solid, but lacks the speed to be a true 1C in this system. Foerster has shown himself to have a higher defensive IQ than anyone expected. Farabee is fine, Brink has to work on his off the puck play. Frost has the skill and speed, but needs to be more consistent.

It would explain why they targeted Drysdale, why they salivated at the chance to nail Michkov and why they took Barkev and Ciernak. So I would think they felt Bonk would be a good fit to take him that high. The "traditional" Flyer picks were Knuble and Sotheran. Knuble may get a scout fired (actually he's coming around, last 10g 5-5 10 +7), Sotheran is looking like a solid 5th rd pick, his upside being a role on the third pair.

The goals were both value and need if they knew Hart was named, they would have targeted goalies with starter potential in that case, not merely gamble on middle round backups. They may have reached a little for Bjarnason, Zavgarin was more likely BPA (don't think they were planning to take two high in the draft).

 

[DancingPanther]

HEY GUYS I NEED TO ASK, WHATS A CAM YORK STATE OF MIND ?

HEY FELLA, IT'S JUST A PLAY ON WORDS OFF THE PHRASE "NEW YORK STATE OF MIND", WHICH IS A SAYING POPULARIZED MOSTLY THROUGH POP MUSIC. FIRST, BY BILLY JOEL IN 1976 WITH THE SONG "NEW YORK STATE OF MIND", THEN IN 1996 WITH A SONG OF THE SAME NAME BY POPULAR RAPPER NAS, AND FINALLY IN 2009 WITH "EMPIRE STATE OF MIND" BY JAY-Z AND ALICIA KEYS. THE SAYING INVOKES PRIDE FROM BEING FROM NEW YORK CITY. IN THIS CASE, IT'S A SILLY POP CULTURE PUN USING THE NAME OF A CURRENT FLYERS PLAYER.

 

[usahockey22flyers]

Based on all publicly available pre-draft information, it was not a wash. There’s not a single scouting service that had Bonk above Perreault and in fact, Perreault was multiple tiers above Bonk on most draft rankings.

Now, sometimes the Pronmans and Wheelers of the world get it wrong. Sometimes actual NHL scouts know better and other times Cole Caufield is exactly what all the amateurs thought he was and the pro teams that passed on him look like idiots. Clearly multiple teams (including well respected organizations like the Red Wings and Blackhawks) passed on him. We’ll see who ends up being right. But calling him low IQ is disingenuous. He clearly thinks the offensive game at a high level and has a great understanding of danger areas and how to get the puck there.

I do think Bonk is having a really nice D+1 year. Making the WJC roster was a pleasant surprise and his offense this year is too. Whether his bumper play on the PP is something unique that could potentially translate to the pros or is just not relevant at all remains to be seen (odds are it’s the latter but stranger things have happened). But even without his bumper stats, he’s been better at generating assists at ES.

His offense needs to continue taking steps forward though for him to be a prospect with a comparable ceiling to Perreault’s… and that’s where most fans took issue. Even if Bonk ends up being the better player, unless he’s a legit #2 defenseman, the point will still be valid that a team severely lacking in high end talent (even more-so with Gauthier going bye bye, which DB and Jonesy knew ahead of the draft) passed up a high skill player with a higher ceiling for a “safer” pick.


This is a much more fair characterization. His size and skating could hold him back. He probably won’t ever be a PK guy or be confused with a Selke winner (Noah Cates he is not), but if his skill and scoring translates and Bonk ends up just a defensive defenseman, that’s an L for Briere/Jones.

Good post

 

[Kelmitchell2]

With Bonk, he had a couple of intangibles going for him. Because of his Dad, he knows the pro game. Big advantage for future development. Secondly he’s playing for the Hunters in London. They have a history of bringing players along there. Additionally, I’d be willing to bet that DB had a good chat with Dale Hunter about everything Bonk before the draft. Briere knew what he was getting with Bonk.

I'm not 100% sold on the knowing of the pro game being a benefit or not, you have seen many players who's dads played when alot of us were younger completely flop, so not too sure how that has much to do with development at all, might make them more "professional" but development needs skill and a strong work ethic to continuously learn new things and to round out skills they already have some kids have it and some don't

 

[deadhead]

I'm not 100% sold on the knowing of the pro game being a benefit or not, you have seen many players who's dads played when alot of us were younger completely flop, so not too sure how that has much to do with development at all, might make them more "professional" but development needs skill and a strong work ethic to continuously learn new things and to round out skills they already have some kids have it and some don't

I think it's all about intangibles, once you have a minimum level of talent.

"Grit" matters, those players wired to compete, with high work ethics, are just more likely to maximize their talent, and in a way that helps the team win, not just make them more money.

Which is why good scouts dig deep, find out about the player's character, his dedication to the game, whether he puts the work in without having to be coerced. It's not just who'll improve the most after they're drafted, it's also who won't be changed once they get their big pay day.

Jason Kelce is a perfect example, walk-on in college, undersized (280 lbs) center drafted in the 6th rd, but has a very high compete level, and is going to be in the HOF, while hundreds of linemen drafted higher in the draft had mediocre careers.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Jason Kelce is one of the best pure athletes in the history of football. He has the best Short Shuttle time by an offensive lineman ever by an absurd margin. There’s only one drafted OL within 0.2 seconds of his time in the last 20 years and even that’s a 0.19 gap. That time beats >95% of WRs and CBs every year. He ran that drill at 280 lbs. The guy is one of the true unicorn athletes of our lifetime.

 

[renberg]

I'm not 100% sold on the knowing of the pro game being a benefit or not, you have seen many players who's dads played when alot of us were younger completely flop, so not too sure how that has much to do with development at all, might make them more "professional" but development needs skill and a strong work ethic to continuously learn new things and to round out skills they already have some kids have it and some don't

Just because the parents/relatives played the game does not mean that a player can. CIP-Nolan Patrick. However if a youngster has the skills and the will, watching the older relatives go through what they did in order to play the game is an absolute advantage. CIP/ Kobe Bryant. Bonk seems to have the skills to be an NHLer. He’s also showing the will. Not saying that he’s going to be an AS but It looks like he wants to and will be a player.

 

[deadhead]

Jason Kelce is one of the best pure athletes in the history of football. He has the best Short Shuttle time by an offensive lineman ever by an absurd margin. There’s only one drafted OL within 0.2 seconds of his time in the last 20 years and even that’s a 0.19 gap. That time beats >95% of WRs and CBs every year. He ran that drill at 280 lbs. The guy is one of the true unicorn athletes of our lifetime.

The Eagles had an OL in camp who had similar athleticism, and he didn't make it past the first few weeks. I can give you a long list of players who had great workout scores and couldn't make it in the NFL.

That athleticism was at 280 lbs, Lane Johnson had similar numbers at 305 lbs. Lane is a freak.

Kelco probably played around 290-295 lbs, but I'll bet he had to eat a lot of cheesesteaks to maintain that weight. On the other hand Mailata had to work to stay under 360, not b/c he's fast but his frame is so huge that once he got into serious weightlifting . . .

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The Eagles had an OL in camp who had similar athleticism, and he didn't make it past the first few weeks. I can give you a long list of players who had great workout scores and couldn't make it in the NFL.

That athleticism was at 280 lbs, Lane Johnson had similar numbers at 305 lbs. Lane is a freak.

Kelco probably played around 290-295 lbs, but I'll bet he had to eat a lot of cheesesteaks to maintain that weight. On the other hand Mailata had to work to stay under 360, not b/c he's fast but his frame is so huge that once he got into serious weightlifting . . .

The Eagles draft freak OLs almost every year, but most of them are Tackles. The only freaky interior guys they drafted in the last ~20 years that come to mind are Kelce, Jurgens, and Scott Young from BYU in the 5th round of the 2005 draft.

The point is not that how hard someone works doesn't matter. It's that there is a tendency to romanticize these things to a ridiculous degree. Kelce is an otherworldly athlete, even on the NFL scale. If he wasn't, it wouldn't matter how many times he studied the playbook.

 

[deadhead]

The Eagles draft freak OLs almost every year, but most of them are Tackles. The only freaky interior guys they drafted in the last ~20 years that come to mind are Kelce, Jurgens, and Scott Young from BYU in the 5th round of the 2005 draft.

The point is not that how hard someone works doesn't matter. It's that there is a tendency to romanticize these things to a ridiculous degree. Kelce is an otherworldly athlete, even on the NFL scale. If he wasn't, it wouldn't matter how many times he studied the playbook.

He also went in the 6th rd. Some of that was prejudice against smaller linemen, but some of that is legitimate, it's really hard to play center in today's NFL under 300 lbs - Fraley did it two decades ago, but DTs have become bigger and more athletic and are now valued higher than DEs.

What made Kelce special (I assume he's retiring, he should, nothing left to prove and 3 daughters to raise) is he could utilize that athleticism in the open field at an elite level, and was good enough with leverage to at least hold his own against bigger DTs.

But he's also ultra-competitive, and that's a big reason for his success, he had to prove himself at every level.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I would think that Torts and Briere sat down and decided on the philosophy behind the rebuild last summer. Briere had to first decide if he could work with Torts (and whether Hilferty would be willing to eat the money while paying AV). Once the answer was yes, then it was about what direction the rebuild should take.

The up tempo game that Torts has installed this season probably isn't a coincidence, but the result of those talks - and it does put a premium on defensive IQ - the more aggressive they play, the more important back checking and defensive positioning becomes as players are caught up ice.

I think this has both exposed players on the existing roster and influenced their draft philosophy. TK and Tippett get caught out of position frequently, but have the speed to recover, Laughton has been exposed. Cates is better suited to wing as this requires more speed at center. Couts is still solid, but lacks the speed to be a true 1C in this system. Foerster has shown himself to have a higher defensive IQ than anyone expected. Farabee is fine, Brink has to work on his off the puck play. Frost has the skill and speed, but needs to be more consistent.

It would explain why they targeted Drysdale, why they salivated at the chance to nail Michkov and why they took Barkev and Ciernak. So I would think they felt Bonk would be a good fit to take him that high. The "traditional" Flyer picks were Knuble and Sotheran. Knuble may get a scout fired (actually he's coming around, last 10g 5-5 10 +7), Sotheran is looking like a solid 5th rd pick, his upside being a role on the third pair.

The goals were both value and need if they knew Hart was named, they would have targeted goalies with starter potential in that case, not merely gamble on middle round backups. They may have reached a little for Bjarnason, Zavgarin was more likely BPA (don't think they were planning to take two high in the draft).

There is no signs of a rebuild. So they drafted players who may be here while the coach who crafted this philosophy will be likely gone.

Those goalies will also be years away if they ever make it. They in a way panicked. Maybe they thought they were the PBA, though I doubt it. Seeing the possible Russian angle the possibility exist that goalie may not be here for a long time. Fowler would have been a better goalie pick.

Picking a guy in the 4th rd will not get a scout fired either. Unless his track record is putrid.

Was Drysdale really targeted? Seems they offered Cutter to Montreal first as well as to Colorado.

 

[trostol]

Was Drysdale really targeted? Seems they offered Cutter to Montreal first as well as to Colorado.

probably not..but may have been the best they were going to get

 

[blackjackmulligan]

probably not..but may have been the best they were going to get

No issue with what they ended up with considering the circumstances. He is making it sound like that was the guy they wanted and what not. They had to settle for him is probably more accurate IMO.

 

[deadhead]

They had targeted their areas of need, C and RHD, and wanted a mobile D-man.
They talked to a dozen teams or more, but Drysdale was definitely a target, they knew Anaheim was deep in D-men.

From the 2023-2025 drafts, Flyers will have (5) 1st, (5) 2nd, (4) 3rd rd picks, before they make any TDL trades. They also picked up Grans and Rizzo.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

I wish they'd do away with the all star game, or make it have meaning, like the conference that wins gets home ice advantage in the Stanley cup finals

 

[renberg]

I wish they'd do away with the all star game, or make it have meaning, like the conference that wins gets home ice advantage in the Stanley cup finals

It’s really hard to have these guys let loose their competitive juices. Guys could get hurt. No one would want that

 

[blackjackmulligan]

They had targeted their areas of need, C and RHD, and wanted a mobile D-man.
They talked to a dozen teams or more, but Drysdale was definitely a target, they knew Anaheim was deep in D-men.

From the 2023-2025 drafts, Flyers will have (5) 1st, (5) 2nd, (4) 3rd rd picks, before they make any TDL trades. They also picked up Grans and Rizzo.

A target sure. Where on there list of targets? Also didn't they say talked to 20 teams. He wasn't a main target.

2 mid level prospects. Nothing wrong with that mind you, both longshots to ever play a regular role on the Flyers.

 

[deadhead]

When you rebuild a talent pipeline, you build it both at the top and down the line.
Grans may never be more than an AHL plus D-man, but he's 21 with good tools, he might also have the light come on in a year or two.

Point is, you both want 1st rd picks but also find guys later, because you need about 22 players (14 and 8) to get through most seasons. And everyone you find later in the draft means you don't have to pay someone in FA. Avon may be no more than a 4LW, but if he's above average in that role, great value for a UDFA. Gendron is tearing up the Q after flashing some talent in the AHL, he just turned 20 in December so he's not your typical overage CHL guy. And so on.

You're gonna miss on the majority of your picks, but hit on a Barkey, Zavragin, etc. and who cares about the later round misses. Where you need a high hit rate are those 1st rd picks, 2nd and 3rd you're happy hitting 50+%, after top 100, if you hit on 20+% you're doing great.

 

[Magua]

Helge Grans, another player that just so happens to be a (big) RHD. I mean......c'mon. They clearly prioritized that above all else. Recent 35th overall to boot. I’ve said since that trade they probably passed up a better asset (a 2nd?) for Grans.

 

[freakydallas13]

Helge Grans, another player that just so happens to be a (big) RHD. I mean......c'mon. They clearly prioritized that above all else. Recent 35th overall to boot. I’ve said since that trade they probably passed up a better asset (a 2nd?) for Grans.

Weird the Flyers have had such a hard time finding RHD, considering it's their number 1 obsession the last 5 or so years and they keep acquiring almost entirely those.

You'd think they are super common the rate the Flyers acquire them.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

When you rebuild a talent pipeline, you build it both at the top and down the line.
Grans may never be more than an AHL plus D-man, but he's 21 with good tools, he might also have the light come on in a year or two.

Point is, you both want 1st rd picks but also find guys later, because you need about 22 players (14 and 8) to get through most seasons. And everyone you find later in the draft means you don't have to pay someone in FA. Avon may be no more than a 4LW, but if he's above average in that role, great value for a UDFA. Gendron is tearing up the Q after flashing some talent in the AHL, he just turned 20 in December so he's not your typical overage CHL guy. And so on.

You're gonna miss on the majority of your picks, but hit on a Barkey, Zavragin, etc. and who cares about the later round misses. Where you need a high hit rate are those 1st rd picks, 2nd and 3rd you're happy hitting 50+%, after top 100, if you hit on 20+% you're doing great.

He already is great value as supplies AHL depth.

As far as Gran IIRC the GM said he didn't know him or ever seen him play.

Weird the Flyers have had such a hard time finding RHD, considering it's their number 1 obsession the last 5 or so years and they keep acquiring almost entirely those.

You'd think they are super common the rate the Flyers acquire them.

Clearly there is an issue with the pro and amateur scouting dept as they cant seem to identify them; that is why a little leery on Drysdale.

 

[Curufinwe]

Sounds more like a contract dump tbh

 

[BernieParent]

I don't mind filling up on projects like Grans but I wish I had more confidence in the Phantoms coaches to maximize the realization of prospect potential.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I don't mind filling up on projects like Grans but I wish I had more confidence in the Phantoms coaches to maximize the realization of prospect potential.

Hard to say how hands on or much influence Jason Smith has with the players. Then you need to figure if he is any good.