2023-24 Roster Thread #8: A Cam York State of Mind

[blackjackmulligan]

Mann's not having a horrible D+1 season for a long-term project.

Pretty talentless team, only two draft picks, both 7th rd. One player like to go in the 2nd rd this summer. Traded their top scorer, overage forward.

Have you seen him play at all?

 

[flyerslducks]

Caufield
Jiricek (although I like drysdale)
Stankoven

Would’ve been nice

 

[wankstifier]

Do or have the Flyers had this in the past/currently?

Drafting someone in the 7th round ruined someone's draft? Ok.

It was just needlessly wasteful, like flicking a silver dollar into a wishing well.

 

[molotce]

Cam York

A de-fense-man that your dreams created

There's nothing he can't do

We're talking 'bout Cam Yorrrrrrrrrrrk

Hahah ok so i guess he’s doing good ? Havent catched a flyers game in awhile and i was wondering what drysdale’s inpact would be on his usage

 

[BigToe]

Stankoven

Would’ve been nice

Leading the AHL in points at 20. I hate it here.

 

[flyerslducks]

Leading the AHL in points at 20. I hate it here.

For real. would’ve been nice to surround michkov with that talent. A top 6 of stankoven, michkov, frost, caufield, couts, farabee, and possibly tk (or trade him for a haul) would’ve been nice

 

[flyerslducks]

Speaking of tk, what’s the plan with him? He doesn’t fit our timeline—do we even have a timeline lol?—and is on a decent contract still. Teams would lineup for him. Or are we resigning him?

I wouldn’t mind him staying if we had an influx of top talent coming in and he could propel the lineup further. But we don’t really have that until michkov comes and even then we need way more top end talent.

 

[freakydallas13]

Flyers are 10th in the NHL in 22+ MPH skating bursts, per NHL edge.

They've been in the top 5 in the NHL in scoring chances off the rush all season, as of a week ago.

Not that I disagree (Tippet is fun to watch on the rush) but when we tried counter the "Frost plays slow" narrative by saying he was way up there in speed bursts, it was hand waved because it didn't match the eye test.

 

[deadhead]

I'd rather have York and Brink than Caufield, I think he's overrated.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Not that I disagree (Tippet is fun to watch on the rush) but when we tried counter the "Frost plays slow" narrative by saying he was way up there in speed bursts, it was hand waved because it didn't match the eye test.

Frost wasn't up there in speed bursts this season. I checked in December. Maybe that's changed since his talk with Torts.

 

[freakydallas13]

Speaking of tk, what’s the plan with him? He doesn’t fit our timeline—do we even have a timeline lol?—and is on a decent contract still. Teams would lineup for him. Or are we resigning him?

I wouldn’t mind him staying if we had an influx of top talent coming in and he could propel the lineup further. But we don’t really have that until michkov comes and even then we need way more top end talent.

The time line is:
-Lock in every single secondary piece already on the roster
-?????
-Stanley Cup

 

[flyerslducks]

The time line is:
-Lock in every single secondary piece already on the roster
-?????
-Stanley Cup

Surprised Stanley cup is in the timeline

 

[deadhead]

Not that I disagree (Tippet is fun to watch on the rush) but when we tried counter the "Frost plays slow" narrative by saying he was way up there in speed bursts, it was hand waved because it didn't match the eye test.

But he wasn't up there in speed bursts early in the season, he was way below average.
It's only the last couple months that he sped up his game.

I'm a little wary of the data, the "slowest" players include Pavelski, Stone, Couts, Benson and some others we'd all kill to have - not sure if it means they're really slow or they just are high IQ players that don't spend a lot of time chasing plays b/c they're in the right place. I tend to look at both top speed and bursts, that is, does the player have speed, and how often do they use it. The other thing is mileage per 60 - that is, how much are they skating

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

A couple of picks yes. Majority no. Left way to much potential on the board for other teams while they drafted for need over BPA, so I wasn't a big fan of that no

Can you give an example other than Perreault, who numerous teams passed on, of where you think they left value on the board?

Michkov was a home run of value. Barkey was a fantastic value. Ciernik was a fantastic value. Sotheran was taken by us well after where scouting services had him ranked.

Knuble was even good value according to most rankings.

Bjarnason was drafted in the proper range.

The only potential "reaches" were on Bonk (a slight one) and Zavragin (Russian goalies in the MHL are never rated properly) and both are having spectacular D+1 years.

You're ASSUMING a bad process of not going BPA took place because you wanted Perreault (so did I), but that's facts not in evidence.

 

[deadhead]

I thought Bonk/Perreault were a wash at the time, Bonk was the classic defensive defenseman with mobility and a frame that would fill out. Perreault was a scorer who lacked the high IQ of Benson.

"A prototypical shutdown defenceman, Bonk safeguards his team by backtracking ahead of offensive turnovers, blocks access to the defensive zone, forces opponents to dump the puck around him, and then seals the puck from them on the back wall. He pushes attackers wide in the defensive zone and scans the ice behind him to stop backdoor plays." -EliteProspects 2023 NHL Draft Guide

Given his offensive outbreak (I don't overvalue his PP production, his ES production has also doubled in his D+1 season), he'd probably be redrafted in the top 20. We'll see if his recent burst is the new normal (10g 11-10 21 +14) or just a SSS.

Perreault is an undersized playmaker with average speed but very good skill. He's having a great freshman season, playing with two other high draft picks, but it still remains to be seen how his skill set will translate to the NHL. He may end up one of those high offense, defensive liability types.

I'd say both the Flyers and Rangers are happy with the players they picked, Flyers have a number of undersized offensively skilled prospects at wing (Michkov, Barkey, Brink, Gendron, Ciernak) and needed a D-man and got one with untapped upside, Rangers got what looked like a bargain.

 

[FlyerNutter]

What prevented the Flyers from trying to make a run at a top 3 pick, and in particular Connor Bedard.

Other than their own stupidity.

Worst case they still get Matvei, or at least a shot at Bedard. They were incredibly lucky Montreal took Reinbacher.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Perreault lacked IQ now. I can’t think of a better example of how IQ means whatever you want it say that fits your current point.

Any guesses who might have said this right before the draft?

You have no clue what Torts likes then. Benson is nothing like Frost.

Benson might be the most fundamentally sound defensively forward and an elite playmaker, with intangibles to boot, exactly what Torts would love.
Moore would be a fine consolation prize, his speed would fit what Torts wants from some of his forwards.
I doubt they rank Leonard ahead of either of these guys.

Perreault might be a dark horse, but I think they may hope he falls to #22.

Or in May, when this was important enough to post?

Wheeler has the Flyers taking Gabe Perreault at #7.

Perreault has put up ridiculous numbers in the USHL and U-18 tournament. Wheeler says his choice would be Benson. But both would provide a playmaking wing who'd be a good fit with Gauthier.

 

[deadhead]

What contradiction? Every draft analyst had Benson over Perrault, Benson is a little faster but also more of a two way player. They're both undersized. Perrault is going to be very good offensively, but with a thin frame and average speed, you wonder if he'll struggle on defense.

It's obvious the Flyers saw something in Bonk that the analysts missed, probably saw his lack of offense was more due to usage than lack of skill and bet on an upswing as he played a bigger role.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

What contradiction? Every draft analyst had Benson over Perrault, Benson is a little faster but also more of a two way player. They're both undersized. Perrault is going to be very good offensively, but with a thin frame and average speed, you wonder if he'll struggle on defense.

It's obvious the Flyers saw something in Bonk that the analysts missed, probably saw his lack of offense was more due to usage than lack of skill and bet on an upswing as he played a bigger role.

You had him as a dark horse with their own pick and expressed that it would take a fall to be available at 22.

Just say you like Bonk better now. No one cares. It's the compulsion to rewrite history that makes no sense.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Aren’t a bunch of Bonk’s numbers from playing the bumper spot on the PP?

Sustainable strategy in the NHL I’m sure

 

[Magua]

Perreault lacked IQ now. I can’t think of a better example of how IQ means whatever you want it say that fits your current point.

Any guesses who might have said this right before the draft?

Someone with generational defensive IQ. The production isn't what you'd like, but there's a lot untapped creativity on the other end. I'll review some tape with you.

What contradiction? Every draft analyst had Benson over Perrault, Benson is a little faster but also more of a two way player. They're both undersized. Perrault is going to be very good offensively, but with a thin frame and average speed, you wonder if he'll struggle on defense.

It's obvious the Flyers saw something in Bonk that the analysts missed, probably saw his lack of offense was more due to usage than lack of skill and bet on an upswing as he played a bigger role.

Benson grades as one of the worst skaters in the NHL this season in top speed and burst. That said, he's a swervy player, not a straight liner. Weirdly, he's almost identical to Marchessault across the board. He's still a gem and probably shouldn't be in the NHL right now. But the speed angle ain't it. If he's faster than Perreault.....godspeed.

The Flyers definitely foresaw Bonk playing bumper/net front on a 34% PP, while having involvement rates that are in intergalactic space for a guy who stands still in the slot. He's not particularly skilled handling pucks and his 5v5 numbers aren't that good. He's got sloppy feet. If the takeaway is latent talent being unearthed, you're in intergalactic space too.

 

[deadhead]

You had him as a dark horse with their own pick and expressed that it would take a fall to be available at 22.

Just say you like Bonk better now. No one cares. It's the compulsion to rewrite history that makes no sense.

Did I say I like Bonk better - I like him better for the Flyers.
When you rank two players in the same tier, then you draft for need, you take BPA when there's a clear difference.

At the time of the draft Perrault was ranked higher by popular consensus, but if the Flyers have confidence in their scouting and projected them as equal value (drafting is basically about projecting a player at 22 years old) then they made the right choice for them.

I just value defense more than a lot of people, I'm wary of all these "advanced metrics" where a player is ranked 99th in offense, 1% in defense and 95th in WAR, something tells me defense is being undervalued. Same way when people go gaga over PP scoring, but ignore PK value - even though they're mirror images (the key stat is the net of special teams, i.e., do you score more than you give up?). So to me, two way D-men have more value than to most people.

I don't take Bonk's PP scoring that seriously, while it shows he may have value there (and what's wrong with a D-man in the bumper slot if he's good enough at it?), I've always said it's overrated at lower levels where the windows are large. But he also improved significantly at ES, especially since he returned from the WJC where he was the youngest D-man on the Canadian team.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Did I say I like Bonk better - I like him better for the Flyers.
When you rank two players in the same tier, then you draft for need, you take BPA when there's a clear difference.

At the time of the draft Perrault was ranked higher by popular consensus, but if the Flyers have confidence in their scouting and projected them as equal value (drafting is basically about projecting a player at 22 years old) then they made the right choice for them.

I just value defense more than a lot of people, I'm wary of all these "advanced metrics" where a player is ranked 99th in offense, 1% in defense and 95th in WAR, something tells me defense is being undervalued. Same way when people go gaga over PP scoring, but ignore PK value - even though they're mirror images (the key stat is the net of special teams, i.e., do you score more than you give up?). So to me, two way D-men have more value than to most people.

I don't take Bonk's PP scoring that seriously, while it shows he may have value there (and what's wrong with a D-man in the bumper slot if he's good enough at it?), I've always said it's overrated at lower levels where the windows are large. But he also improved significantly at ES, especially since he returned from the WJC where he was the youngest D-man on the Canadian team.

Before the draft, Perreault was a dark horse for 7OA. You have zero mentions of the word Bonk before they picked him, whereupon he morphed into the actual upside pick and the smart approach. Not the guy who was a consideration at 7OA. Oliver Bonk, who you thought so much of that you never mentioned him. That makes no sense whatsoever unless you simply changed your mind because the Flyers drafted him.

Once again, fair enough. It’s your call. Like who you like for whatever reasons you want. Just don’t expect it to be taken as anything other than what it is.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

 

[BernieParent]

Vegas did just fine trading for veterans.
You stockpile assets, then target players who fill needs who fit your timeline.

Would anyone be unhappy if we emulated Carolina, with a better goalie pipeline?

In the end, it comes down to scouting and a GM who knows what he's doing, without that you can tank for a decade and be Buffalo.

Comparing the Flyers with Vegas is a real apples to toasters one. And I would be thrilled to emulate Carolina's drafting, trading, and development model. It should be mentioned that between 2013 and 2018 they drafted at 5, 7, 5, 13, 12, and 2.