2023-24 Roster Thread #5: Where the boos aren't limited to Halloween

[Lindberg]

A competitive team is a good environment for player development, playing meaningful games against opponents who take you seriously both teaches young players what it takes to win at the NHL level, and weeds out the ones that ain't got "it."

They're starting 9 players 25 and under, Frost is the 10th, Andrae when he comes up, the 11th.
It's not like Deslaurers, Hathaway, Seeler and Belpedio are carrying this team.

They need to move everyone out asap to be as bad as possible. That's certainly a recipe for success. /sarcasm

If anything should attempt to be competitive and let the cards fall where they may be. The Flyers are in a good spot if they dont shoot themselves in the foot.

Honestly the most comical thing would be if the Flyers won the cup this year. This forum would have a meltdown.

 

[Mickey the mouse]

A competitive team is a good environment for player development, playing meaningful games against opponents who take you seriously both teaches young players what it takes to win at the NHL level, and weeds out the ones that ain't got "it."

They're starting 9 players 25 and under, Frost is the 10th, Andrae when he comes up, the 11th.
It's not like Deslaurers, Hathaway, Seeler and Belpedio are carrying this team.

Why so much dislike for Seeler ?

He’s been very solid in his role on bottom pair.

 

[Beef Invictus]

They need to move everyone out asap to be as bad as possible. That's certainly a recipe for success. /sarcasm

If anything should attempt to be competitive and let the cards fall where they may be. The Flyers are in a good spot if they dont shoot themselves in the foot.

Honestly the most comical thing would be if the Flyers won the cup this year. This forum would have a meltdown.

A meltdown of delight? Everyone wants to see the team win. The objections raised here are due to the team doing things that make that very unlikely.

 

[freakydallas13]

After Frost did what was asked of him last year and played well in preseason, what do you think Frost could have done differently so far this season to change why he is being scratched for 5 games straight?

If you answer is "play better in the game against Ottawa", I guess you are correct, but then your criteria for keeping him out of the lineup becomes "if he has a single bad game he has to be benched for at least the next 5", and that is a incredibly punitive standard that no other roster player is being subjected to.

I want to know where you stand: do you think he is being treated unfairly compared to other roster players? Yes or no?

@deadhead I'm not trying to antagonize you, I genuinely want to know. Because from where I'm standing, I don't see how you can argue against it.

 

[freakydallas13]

They need to move everyone out asap to be as bad as possible. That's certainly a recipe for success. /sarcasm

If anything should attempt to be competitive and let the cards fall where they may be. The Flyers are in a good spot if they dont shoot themselves in the foot.

Honestly the most comical thing would be if the Flyers won the cup this year. This forum would have a meltdown.

Minnesota, Calgary, and Winnipeg all have been competitive and let their cards fall where they may. Now maybe this is just me, but I want the Flyers to be something better than those eternally mediocre teams.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

They need to move everyone out asap to be as bad as possible. That's certainly a recipe for success. /sarcasm

If anything should attempt to be competitive and let the cards fall where they may be. The Flyers are in a good spot if they dont shoot themselves in the foot.

Honestly the most comical thing would be if the Flyers won the cup this year. This forum would have a meltdown.

pretty sure to win the cup you first have to make the POs... and this team aint.

 

[deadhead]

@deadhead I'm not trying to antagonize you, I genuinely want to know. Because from where I'm standing, I don't see how you can argue against it.

Show up the first two games. He was bad, it was like he hadn't got the wake up call that the season started. The eyeballs and the metrics agree. I think normally it would have been a game or two out of the lineup, but the team kept playing well, Brink won a job and Foerster deserved a longer luck.

I think Torts sincerely wants to light a fire under Frost, get him to play with intensity most of the time instead of a period here and there. It works for some players, others don't respond well to being pushed.

But it means something for a team that was putrid last year to be 6th in the NHL in xGF%. They're controlling play, even if they need to get better at finishing and develop a decent PP. They may not be able to sustain at this level, but it's still looks like a substantial upgrade over last season. If you can get talented young players to buy in, you can have something special.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Show up the first two games. He was bad, it was like he hadn't got the wake up call that the season started. The eyeballs and the metrics agree. I think normally it would have been a game or two out of the lineup, but the team kept playing well, Brink won a job and Foerster deserved a longer luck.

I think Torts sincerely wants to light a fire under Frost, get him to play with intensity most of the time instead of a period here and there. It works for some players, others don't respond well to being pushed.

But it means something for a team that was putrid last year to be 6th in the NHL in xGF%. They're controlling play, even if they need to get better at finishing and develop a decent PP. They may not be able to sustain at this level, but it's still looks like a substantial upgrade over last season. If you can get talented young players to buy in, you can have something special.

He wasn't bad, though.

So being benched for this long while others perform worse...you consider this fair??

 

[freakydallas13]

Show up the first two games. He was bad, it was like he hadn't got the wake up call that the season started. The eyeballs and the metrics agree. I think normally it would have been a game or two out of the lineup, but the team kept playing well, Brink won a job and Foerster deserved a longer luck.

I think Torts sincerely wants to light a fire under Frost, get him to play with intensity most of the time instead of a period here and there. It works for some players, others don't respond well to being pushed.

But it means something for a team that was putrid last year to be 6th in the NHL in xGF%. They're controlling play, even if they need to get better at finishing and develop a decent PP. They may not be able to sustain at this level, but it's still looks like a substantial upgrade over last season. If you can get talented young players to buy in, you can have something special.

And the other players who had bad games the first 2 games (Tippet was arguably worse over that time span)? Why aren't they benched like Frost is?

I'm pointedly not replying to stuff about the team's xGF% or PP, because I want to focus on the question of whether or not Frost is being singled out here. That other stuff isn't what I'm talking about.

Edit: I still haven't gotten a straight answer from you re: do you think Frost is being treated the same as other players or not?

 

[Lindberg]

Minnesota, Calgary, and Winnipeg all have been competitive and let their cards fall where they may. Now maybe this is just me, but I want the Flyers to be something better than those eternally mediocre teams.

Buffalo and Edmonton have been bad for over a decade plus and don't have much to show for it. Colorado even lucked into Makar.

 

[Lindberg]

A meltdown of delight? Everyone wants to see the team win. The objections raised here are due to the team doing things that make that very unlikely.

I'm not sure what threads you're reading here. People act like every thought process they have is correct.

People are claiming Morgan Frost is a top 6 player. Guy has 1 single season of over inflated stats.

 

[Magua]

Boy, do I have news about Cates and Tippett’s inflated stats if Frost’s was inflated!

Frost has played 2 NHL seasons, not 5. A single season (the last one at that) seems a pretty vital sample. It’s not the exception. The other season is the exception looking at his track record.

As @VladDrag is fond of saying, I simply have no idea what people are watching if they can’t see Frost’s talent. This organization has putrid center depth and playmakers — the nonchalance about pissing away one of their most skilled young players is beyond me.

 

[freakydallas13]

Buffalo and Edmonton have been bad for over a decade plus and don't have much to show for it. Colorado even lucked into Makar.

Edmonton has been to a conference final recently, more than all those other teams (including the eternal doormat ones like Minnesota) can say.

The point is, they have already tried the "letting their cards fall where they may" method. It's all the Flyers have ever done. It hasn't worked for this team in 50 years. A bunch of other teams do it. Most are nothing more than eternal first round speed bumps for true contenders. Why not try something different? At least a tear down rebuild worked for Pittsburgh/Chicago/Washington/Colorado. Even teams it didn't work for (yet) like Toronto, NJ, or Edmonton, you think they are in a worse position now than any Flyers team of the last decade? It's not even close in my eyes. I'd absolutely take their rosters over this one plus the current prospects we have and a few more 10-15 overall picks. Yes, even Buffalo's roster.

People against "tanking" point to teams that tore it down and haven't won a cup yet like Edmonton or Buffalo as proof the Flyers shouldn't try that method. But if those teams ever did manage to win a cup, I want you to look (post?) me in the eyes and tell me it would force you to reconsider your position. That it would actually change your mind, and you would suddenly become pro tanking, because I find it hard to believe it would.

Washington was never good enough to win a cup. Until they were. Nevermind how much luck goes into a single cup even for perfectly constructed super teams; using "who does and who does not" win a cup as the metric for which roster building strategies to use is disingeneos at best, and more likely asinine.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'm not sure what threads you're reading here. People act like every thought process they have is correct.

People are claiming Morgan Frost is a top 6 player. Guy has 1 single season of over inflated stats.

How are they over inflated? He could easily receive the same usage.

How does Frost performing at a 2C level preclude people wanting the team to win a Cup? Do you even read around here? Everyone talks about wanting the team to be good. Why would people be mad about having the thing they want?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Edmonton has been to a conference final recently, more than all those other teams (including the eternal doormat ones like Minnesota) can say.

The point is, they have already tried the "letting their cards fall where they may" method. It's all the Flyers have ever done. It hasn't worked for this team in 50 years. A bunch of other teams do it. Most are nothing more than eternal first round speed bumps for true contenders. Why not try something different? At least a tear down rebuild worked for Pittsburgh/Chicago/Washington/Colorado. Even teams it didn't work for (yet) like Toronto, NJ, or Edmonton, you think they are in a worse position now than any Flyers team of the last decade? It's not even close in my eyes. I'd absolutely take their rosters over this one plus the current prospects we have and a few more 10-15 overall picks. Yes, even Buffalo's roster.

People against "tanking" point to teams that tore it down and haven't won a cup yet like Edmonton or Buffalo as proof the Flyers shouldn't try that method. But if those teams ever did manage to win a cup, I want you to look (post?) me in the eyes and tell me it would force you to reconsider your position. That it would actually change your mind, and you would suddenly become pro tanking, because I find it hard to believe it would.

Washington was never good enough to win a cup. Until they were. Nevermind how much luck goes into a single cup even for perfectly constructed super teams; using "who does and who does not" win a cup as the metric for which roster building strategies to use is disingeneos at best, and more likely asinine.

Colorado and TB are the best examples. They used to be the crowning jewels with Edmonton in the "look! Tanking doesn't work!" argument. When they won, that crowd just shrugged and pointed at different teams who haven't won yet.

 

[Flyer lurker]

They need to move everyone out asap to be as bad as possible. That's certainly a recipe for success. /sarcasm

If anything should attempt to be competitive and let the cards fall where they may be. The Flyers are in a good spot if they dont shoot themselves in the foot.

Honestly the most comical thing would be if the Flyers won the cup this year. This forum would have a meltdown.

If the flyers win the cup i willl volunteer to have a threeway with whoopi foldsberg and Joy Behar

 

[Don Nachbaur 26]

If the flyers win the cup i willl volunteer to have a threeway with whoopi foldsberg and Joy Behar

That could be fun

 

[Beef Invictus]

That could be fun

"It is recognized that you have a funny sense of fun"

 

[deadhead]

I think Torts is more firmly planted in reality than some here (from Charlie):

One thing notable in talking with Torts -- his team is objectively playing really well, & it's not like he's spiking the football, crowing the Flyers' doubters were all wrong. He's still saying growing pains are coming & it's going to require a team effort to "stay competitive."

They'll probably beat Anaheim today (a truly bad team) but I don't think they think they're a playoff caliber team, and hopefully if they squeeze into the playoffs, they'll remember that.

 

[Cody Webster]

I could see them packaging Frost with a draft pick or two for a young RHD or top six center.
I could also see them moving Laughton, with Couts healthy, Cates and Poehling, he is expendable.

THEY ARE NEVER TRADING LAUGHTON. HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU HAVE TO BE TOLD THIS

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think Torts is more firmly planted in reality than some here (from Charlie):

One thing notable in talking with Torts -- his team is objectively playing really well, & it's not like he's spiking the football, crowing the Flyers' doubters were all wrong. He's still saying growing pains are coming & it's going to require a team effort to "stay competitive."

They'll probably beat Anaheim today (a truly bad team) but I don't think they think they're a playoff caliber team, and hopefully if they squeeze into the playoffs, they'll remember that.

If he were more firmly planted in reality then he would be playing Frost. Always fun when you start posts with nonsense and then try to build on the foundation of nonsense.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Yes, I agree, Torts is most definitely more firmly planted in reality (from 25 years ago) then some here.

 

[kudymen]

I think Torts is more firmly planted in reality than some here

I appreciate the touch of irony there

 

[ybnvs]

I think Torts is more firmly planted in reality than some here (from Charlie):

Yeah, probably. Certainly more grounded in reality than you at least.

Hail Torts!

 

[deadhead]

And the other players who had bad games the first 2 games (Tippet was arguably worse over that time span)? Why aren't they benched like Frost is?

Edit: I still haven't gotten a straight answer from you re: do you think Frost is being treated the same as other players or not?

TIppett's being graded on a different curve, he's being asked to play on his off side, and he's struggled a bit, but that's less about "merit" than being patient with a player out of his comfort zone and seeing if he can make the adjustment (taking one for the team).

Same issue with Foerster, adjusting to both LW and the NHL at the same time.

Everyone else in the top nine clearly outplayed Frost.

Frost should get back into the lineup, but I think this is a situation that will work its way out eventually, either the inevitable injury or Briere makes a deal at some point.