2023-24 Roster Thread #5: Where the boos aren't limited to Halloween
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Magua
Entirely Palatable Product
My thing is if internal growth changes the calculus......bring it on. Top of the lineup pieces can emerge unexpectedly. Speaking definitively on timelines is for dopes, and that goes both ways.
Nothing this team is doing (or might do) is based on internal growth, not in the long-term sense. I thought this team would improve this year, and despite it being early, I feel reasonably good about saying they are improved. But how did they improve? Does it look like any young players took steps forward?
Cates looks like the same player as last year, aggressively jammed into the 2C spot, with the sliders moved slightly. I think Farabee is back on track after a down year, but he looks like himself. Tippett is regressing on LW, but he's probably the same middle 6 RWer. York looks like York. Brink has been impactful as a rookie, but he's having the exact impacts (middle 6 + PP) we'd predict. Frost is being scratched every game because of a spiteful power hungry coach.
So, why are they improved? They dumped 3 negative-net neutral value players in TDA, Hayes, Provorov. They refused to trade the players they valued. They returned a true lineup stabilizer in Couturier, who looks like he's healthy. Atkinson looks fine. Sanheim was always going to bounce back, but in max usage, he's now (predictably) providing more value than ever. Walker, Poehling, Hathaway -- fine depth adds. Why this feels so soul suckingly pointless is because none of this start is based on the youth changing the calculus. I'd argue that everything to do with Frost actually makes it worse.
Nothing this team is doing (or might do) is based on internal growth, not in the long-term sense. I thought this team would improve this year, and despite it being early, I feel reasonably good about saying they are improved. But how did they improve? Does it look like any young players took steps forward?
Cates looks like the same player as last year, aggressively jammed into the 2C spot, with the sliders moved slightly. I think Farabee is back on track after a down year, but he looks like himself. Tippett is regressing on LW, but he's probably the same middle 6 RWer. York looks like York. Brink has been impactful as a rookie, but he's having the exact impacts (middle 6 + PP) we'd predict. Frost is being scratched every game because of a spiteful power hungry coach.
So, why are they improved? They dumped 3 negative-net neutral value players in TDA, Hayes, Provorov. They refused to trade the players they valued. They returned a true lineup stabilizer in Couturier, who looks like he's healthy. Atkinson looks fine. Sanheim was always going to bounce back, but in max usage, he's now (predictably) providing more value than ever. Walker, Poehling, Hathaway -- fine depth adds. Why this feels so soul suckingly pointless is because none of this start is based on the youth changing the calculus. I'd argue that everything to do with Frost actually makes it worse.
freakydallas13
Registered User
After Frost did what was asked of him last year and played well in preseason, what do you think Frost could have done differently so far this season to change why he is being scratched for 5 games straight?
If you answer is "play better in the game against Ottawa", I guess you are correct, but then your criteria for keeping him out of the lineup becomes "if he has a single bad game he has to be benched for at least the next 5", and that is a incredibly punitive standard that no other roster player is being subjected to.
I want to know where you stand: do you think he is being treated unfairly compared to other roster players? Yes or no?
CanadianFlyer88
Knublin' PPs
Flyers are paying him more than Frost, so he may as well be.
CerpinTaxt
Registered User
Torts' philosophy is that 4th line is strictly for grinding. Frost can't play 4th line cause he's a scorer not a grinder.
The coach openly admits to sending out a line that he views as an offensive black hole
CanadianFlyer88
Knublin' PPs
They're also missing probable negative impact players in Risto and Staal.
I made the comment in the GDT that the PK looks better this year and wondered if it was because it's missing Provy and Risto.
That they continue to try and use players in roles they're not comfortable in will either pay off in the long run or crash horribly. It has worked for Cates and Sanheim. Jury's still out on any of the wingers playing on their wrong sides, though Tippett and Foerster have struggled mightily. This is the Torts test for "internal growth" and fits my suspicion that he likes putting players in uncomfortable spots to see how they'll respond.
Unfortunately, the bar for the 4th line is so low that they'll achieve it as long as it looks like they're working hard. This leaves Frost on the outside until an injury, which is so asinine given the message from the Flyers that guys would rotate through the lineup.
The team is going to be better as long as Couts remains at his elevated level. Missing him last year was a massive gulf in talent and line matching. No one knew how he'd come back, but he's looked every bit as good as he did pre-injury, despite being slightly off timingwise, which is entirely understandable.
The grind of the season will likely expose the depth on D. Seeler probably can't have a full manageable season like he did last year, Zamula has never played a full season in the NHL, Risto will return and be Risto, the corpse of Marc Staal will return and play 18 minutes a night... that's where we'll see the most obvious regression, I think.
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
There's certainly no point doing it, but that's never stopped this team
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
It's a major part of the appeal to him. In the offseason he said the team needs more 10 goal PK specialists, not talent. And thus this 4th line was built for him. They've decided to just punt on 900 minutes of the season.
Tripod
I hate this team
If you want to keep Foerster and Brink up, there is a simple, REBUILDING, solution.
Trade Laughton.
It opens roster spot for a 24 year old with 60 point which is good for the rebuild and get a 1st for the rebuild longterm.
EZPZ
But we know deep down Torts wants to keep Laughton and would love to trade Frost for ANOTHER Laughton type.
Trade Laughton.
It opens roster spot for a 24 year old with 60 point which is good for the rebuild and get a 1st for the rebuild longterm.
EZPZ
But we know deep down Torts wants to keep Laughton and would love to trade Frost for ANOTHER Laughton type.
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deadhead
Registered User
- Feb 26, 2014
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Brink is a better offensive player than Frost at least in this SSS, we'll see if he can maintain this pace, but better vision, more agile in short areas, better passer, especially in traffic. Can't skate like Frost, but skates well enough for a winger.
Farabee is bigger and stronger, which was his biggest weakness, he has a "dirty area" game, now he's strong enough to hold his ground.
Tippett is out of place at LW.
Cates is improving on offense, how much upside? Remains to be seen.
Foerster has been up and down, but at 21 he's holding his own playing on his off side.
York looks like York, except he's playing 23 minutes a night instead of 19 last year.
Poehling is an effective 4C.
Sanheim is a better player this year, bigger, stronger, more aggressive, he was a finesse player in the past, now he's more of a complete defenseman, playing a 1D role, 26 minutes a night.
Zamula is a 3LW asked to play 2LW and it shows.
Brink, Foerster, Poehling and Zamula are additions.
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
Can you imagine if they trade Laughton for a veteran now based on the first handful of games?
Tripod
I hate this team
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
Tripod
I hate this team
Trading Frost ± 2 picks for a 27-28 year old 50 point C would be right in brand. A guy with character and intangibles.
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
Frost is a top six center. Why are we paying to get the thing we already have? That's Fletcher management.
FLYguy3911
Sanheim Lover
- Oct 19, 2006
- 54,772
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nice crop.When you escape from this loser org:
Striiker
Former Flyers Fan
Magua
Entirely Palatable Product
“Soooo, what did we learn from the Hayes contract?”
Besides, they’re submarining Frost’s value. The idea they’d return a player with his upside is a hoot. Even with a pick. They need an elite center prospect WITH Frost in the organization as their most skilled center. Oh, excuse me: Gauthier/Cates will be the 1C/2C in 3 years.
BiggE
SELL THE DAMN TEAM
Re Frost: none of this is the least bit shocking. Once the God Emperor turns on a player, that’s it, over. Other than coming back and averaging north of 1.5 pts per game, there is absolutely nothing Frost can do that would convince the fossilized piece of shit behind the bench to keep him in the lineup.
Let’s not kid ourselves either, Danny Briere is nowhere near the top of food chain when it comes to who runs this corpse of an organization. Hilferty, followed by Clarke, Torts and Jones are the four senile horsemen of the Flyers coming apocalypse. Briere is just the nice guy sucker they conned into taking the GM job and the nice paycheck that comes with it.
@Magua hit the nail right on the f***ing head. They are absolutely improved, but it has squat to do with Torts. They swapped out Hayes, JVR and some other crap and replaced them with a healthy Couts and Atkinson. They unloaded Provy and TDA, while allowing Sanheim to move into the #1 role. Better yet, Fisto has been gone all season and that alone is probably worth a net gain of a goal a game. Add to that Carter Hart not being overused and burned out yet, Farabee being able to properly train all off season and the spark they are getting from Brink and of course they are improved.
Will they regress and slip down the standings? Of course, they don’t have either the elite skill or overall depth to sustain this start. The sad thing though, is that they are improved enough to go from being a 70-75 point team to an 80-85 point team which Jones and Co will point to when they claim that a rebuild isn’t necessary. Come this summer they’ll be spending right to the cap and deluding themselves that adding Cutter will get them north of 90 points and challenging for a playoff spot.
Honestly? I wish they had kept Cuck for another year. It would have at least guaranteed them a top 5 pick this coming spring. This franchise is basically Groundhog Day at this point. It’s hockey hell.
Let’s not kid ourselves either, Danny Briere is nowhere near the top of food chain when it comes to who runs this corpse of an organization. Hilferty, followed by Clarke, Torts and Jones are the four senile horsemen of the Flyers coming apocalypse. Briere is just the nice guy sucker they conned into taking the GM job and the nice paycheck that comes with it.
@Magua hit the nail right on the f***ing head. They are absolutely improved, but it has squat to do with Torts. They swapped out Hayes, JVR and some other crap and replaced them with a healthy Couts and Atkinson. They unloaded Provy and TDA, while allowing Sanheim to move into the #1 role. Better yet, Fisto has been gone all season and that alone is probably worth a net gain of a goal a game. Add to that Carter Hart not being overused and burned out yet, Farabee being able to properly train all off season and the spark they are getting from Brink and of course they are improved.
Will they regress and slip down the standings? Of course, they don’t have either the elite skill or overall depth to sustain this start. The sad thing though, is that they are improved enough to go from being a 70-75 point team to an 80-85 point team which Jones and Co will point to when they claim that a rebuild isn’t necessary. Come this summer they’ll be spending right to the cap and deluding themselves that adding Cutter will get them north of 90 points and challenging for a playoff spot.
Honestly? I wish they had kept Cuck for another year. It would have at least guaranteed them a top 5 pick this coming spring. This franchise is basically Groundhog Day at this point. It’s hockey hell.
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
Ah so the goal is to be what they've always been? Great. That's shooting low.
Magua
Entirely Palatable Product
The goal is to build a team that can contend for championships for 5-10 years. If the argument is anything else, I have to respectfully howl and rip my shirt in two.
Striiker
Former Flyers Fan
Anyone who thinks the goal is anything other than feeding Tort's insane ego is completely delusional.
They're not rebuilding. Nothing they've done so far fits with what a competent rebuilding team would do.
They're not rebuilding. Nothing they've done so far fits with what a competent rebuilding team would do.
deadhead
Registered User
- Feb 26, 2014
- 51,057
- 22,232
A competitive team is a good environment for player development, playing meaningful games against opponents who take you seriously both teaches young players what it takes to win at the NHL level, and weeds out the ones that ain't got "it."
They're starting 9 players 25 and under, Frost is the 10th, Andrae when he comes up, the 11th.
It's not like Deslaurers, Hathaway, Seeler and Belpedio are carrying this team.
They're starting 9 players 25 and under, Frost is the 10th, Andrae when he comes up, the 11th.
It's not like Deslaurers, Hathaway, Seeler and Belpedio are carrying this team.
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