2023-24 Roster Thread #5: Where the boos aren't limited to Halloween

[VladDrag]

I don't think the models will tell us, but does his defensive prowess free up his linemates (and the D-men) to be more aggressive with him at center?

I don’t know to be honest. I would doubt it, but it’s possible that is happening.

I’ll read into it in a little bit

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

It's definitely head-scratching, which is why I'm patient, all the knee jerk reactions don't make sense - this is not TDA at the end of last season, driving Torts crazy with his repeated mistakes. And I don't buy "Torts hates him." w

"Something's happening here, what it is ain't exactly clear . . . "

Why don't you buy that he hates him? He had some "unflattering" (and I'm putting that mildly) quotes about Frost last season. He had to all but be instructed by management to play him more. And now this season, after a mediocre 2 games, he's been sitting for an extended period. Meanwhile, Staal was the worst player to touch the ice for us until his injury and Torts showed no signs of ever benching him. The fourth line has been beyond brutal in back to back games, particularly Deslauriers, and Torts shows no signs of making changes.

Torts plays favorites. He does this towards Vets and "physical" (thuggish) grinders. Everybody knows this.

This is the kind of shit that makes people around here ignore you and clown you when you actually do make a valid point... your incessant need to defend Torts and Fletcher even when it's obvious they're in the wrong.

 

[Curufinwe]

A Calgary fan on the Frost trade thread basically offered Zadorov for Frost. If he was a RHD, I think Jonesy, Torts and their little buddy would be all over a deal like that.

 

[A1LeafNation]

No point in trading Frost at his lowest value. Love Laughton but he won't stick as #2C. Hopefully we see something like this soon...

Konecny Couturier Foerster
Tippett Frost Atkinson
Farabee Laughton Brink

 

[Curufinwe]

No point in trading Frost at his lowest value. Love Laughton but he won't stick as #2C. Hopefully we see something like this soon...

Konecny Couturier Foerster
Tippett Frost Atkinson
Farabee Laughton Brink

Are you planning on kidnapping Noah Cates?

 

[A1LeafNation]

Are you planning on kidnapping Noah Cates?

Lol forgot him

 

[Striiker]

No point in trading Frost at his lowest value. Love Laughton but he won't stick as #2C. Hopefully we see something like this soon...

Konecny Couturier Foerster
Tippett Frost Atkinson
Farabee Laughton Brink

Trading good players and getting nothing in return is exactly what this shit team does.

Sometimes they get less than nothing in return for their best players.

 

[deadhead]

Why don't you buy that he hates him? He had some "unflattering" (and I'm putting that mildly) quotes about Frost last season. He had to all but be instructed by management to play him more. And now this season, after a mediocre 2 games, he's been sitting for an extended period. Meanwhile, Staal was the worst player to touch the ice for us until his injury and Torts showed no signs of ever benching him. The fourth line has been beyond brutal in back to back games, particularly Deslauriers, and Torts shows no signs of making changes.

Torts plays favorites. He does this towards Vets and "physical" (thuggish) grinders. Everybody knows this.

This is the kind of shit that makes people around here ignore you and clown you when you actually do make a valid point... your incessant need to defend Torts and Fletcher even when it's obvious they're in the wrong.

Staal CF 51.78%, xGF 59.60%, SCF 60.81%, HDCF 73.44%
Not saying he'd keep that up, but hard to say he was the worst player to touch the ice.

So explain how Brink is 2nd among forwards in 5x5 TOI?

 

[Tripod]

Charlie was just on Marek's show, and here are the highlights on Frost.

Marek: I know there are some problems with the Jets and how they are handling Cole P right now and it's becoming an issue. With Frost, it's even bigger. It would not surprise me if he has already asked for a trade or will ask if it continues.

Charlie: "didn't come out of nowhere. Benched last year in Toronto which is his hometown and his dad a longtime Leaf employee, which bothered the Frost camp, rightfully so. Played well in 2nd half and was a top player and even so, Torts was not sold on him. I just don't think he is one of Torts "guys". Bad game in Ottawa and he was not alone, lots of others played bad, and Torts benched the guy he was fine removing from the lineup. Then they started to play well and win so the scratches continued.

Frost at some point will get in the lineup. Injuries happen. Losses will happen. But there is a clear disconnect between Frost and Torts and I am not sure it ever gets fixed."

Edit: I was going by mostly memory. The entire clip is in the media thread for everyone to listen to.

 

[bennysflyers16]

Charlie was just on Marek's show, and here are the highlights on Frost.

Marek: I know there are some problems with the Jets and how they are handling Cole P right now and it's becoming an issue. With Frost, it's even bigger. It would not surprise me if he has already asked for a trade or will ask if it continues.

Charlie: "didn't come out of nowhere. Benched last year in Toronto which is his hometown and his dad a longtime Leaf employee, which bothered the Frost camp, rightfully so. Played well in 2nd half and was a top player and even so, Torts was not sold on him. I just don't think he is one of Torts "guys". Bad game in Ottawa and he was not alone, lots of others played bad, and Torts benched the guy he was fine removing from the lineup. Then they started to play well and win so the scratches continued.

Frost at some point will get in the lineup. Injuries happen. Losses will happen. But there is a clear disconnect between Frost and Torts and I am not sure it ever gets fixed."

So Frost is described as a 13th fwd then .

Great plan while there are at minimum 5 worse regulars.

 

[deadhead]

It's not about size or physicality, Brink is a Torts favorite in 6 games.
If I had to guess, it's frustration with his "up and down toilet seat" play.
Torts knows what he's gonna get with players like TK or Brink.

When Frost isn't scoring, he's often invisible for long stretches, like the first two games this season.
And that's the kind of thing that drives Torts crazy.

Now should he just relax and accept that's the way Frost is wired? Sure, in the short run.

But that's not the kind of player you want as a core guy you give a big extension.
If Frost can't step up his game you don't let him get to his next contract.

Briere of all people understands the mindset needed to excel in the playoffs - and that's the goal.

 

[Tripod]

Nothing says long stretch like 2 games.

 

[deadhead]

Nothing says long stretch like 2 games.

Did the same thing last year.
It's not the scoring droughts, all scorers have droughts, it's how you handle it.
When Frost isn't scoring, the rest of his game also goes downhill.

Now could he be handled better? Sure, just shelter him when he's in one of those slumps until he breaks out of it. Accept he's one of those guys who can't be pushed and treat him with kid gloves.

But you don't pay guys like that big money, either. You don't shelter core guys.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

We need to understand what that's telling us. That's telling us he's on the ice for many high danger shots, but that does not mean he's involved in those shots.

Evolving-Hockey doesn't have their RAPM/GAR/xGAR models up yet that detail some of this; however, Hockey-Viz does. This is the isolated impacts thru the first 7 games. Again, he's a net negative for offense. That doesn't mean it won't continue but that's what has been happening so far.

View attachment 758824

His most common linemates have been Brink (+3.6 5v5 O), Farabee (+1.7 5v5 O), and TK (+4.8 5v5 O). It's clear that he is being driven by his linemates in terms of HDCF....

What is nice to see is that his offensive sG value is significantly better than last year...Again, it's only 7 games in so let's see what happens, but there is progress.

Yep, he's got a little bit better offensive metrics at the cost of still very good but slightly worse defensive impacts. That's basically what I personally wanted to see.

He's never going to be a strong offensive positive. He just needs to be passable. And it's fine if it makes him more like the 90th Percentile in defensive impacts instead of 98th. It's a much more repeatable way to avoid becoming a 4th liner.

 

[deadhead]

Yep, he's got a little bit better offensive metrics at the cost of still very good but slightly worse defensive impacts. That's basically what I personally wanted to see.

He's never going to be a strong offensive positive. He just needs to be passable. And it's fine if it makes him more like the 90th Percentile in defensive impacts instead of 98th. It's a much more repeatable way to avoid becoming a 4th liner.

It also makes him more valuable in terms of flexibility, the defense is always there with a lead, but if he's a solid 3C then you can use him on a regular rotation, PK and extra shifts in the third period with a lead when defense is relatively more valuable than offense.

 

[Fight4yourRight]

Just trade Frost for the 2036 5th rounder and be done with it. Nobody destroys value quite like the Philadelphia Flyers.

 

[freakydallas13]

Did the same thing last year.
It's not the scoring droughts, all scorers have droughts, it's how you handle it.
When Frost isn't scoring, the rest of his game also goes downhill.

Now could he be handled better? Sure, just shelter him when he's in one of those slumps until he breaks out of it. Accept he's one of those guys who can't be pushed and treat him with kid gloves.

But you don't pay guys like that big money, either. You don't shelter core guys.

It's clear there isn't anything Frost can do to please Torts, short of "never have a bad game again". Even you have to admit he's being singled out and punished much more harshly than any other roster regular.

 

[Curufinwe]

When Frost isn't scoring, the rest of his game also goes downhill.

This such a tiresome lie. Can you at least come up with some new phony material?

 

[Tripod]

Yeah big money is for guys who bring it every night. Like Hayes.

 

[deadhead]

It's clear there isn't anything Frost can do to please Torts, short of "never have a bad game again". Even you have to admit he's being singled out and punished much more harshly than any other roster regular.

I don't think it so much punishment as the other top nine forwards playing well.

The situation isn't sustainable, but Torts doesn't want to demote Cates or Laughton to the fourth line, he's not ready to send Foerster back to LHV (so much for "he hates young players"), and he's not playing Frost with Deslauriers and Hathaway.

They're not giving Frost away, Briere isn't backed into a corner or forced to do anything.
Something will happen in the next couple weeks, I'm sure Torts and Briere have discussed their options.

Yeah big money is for guys who bring it every night. Like Hayes.

Is Hayes still a Flyer?

 

[bennysflyers16]

Did the same thing last year.
It's not the scoring droughts, all scorers have droughts, it's how you handle it.
When Frost isn't scoring, the rest of his game also goes downhill.

Now could he be handled better? Sure, just shelter him when he's in one of those slumps until he breaks out of it. Accept he's one of those guys who can't be pushed and treat him with kid gloves.

But you don't pay guys like that big money, either. You don't shelter core guys.

But he was the best forward for the majority of the season.

 

[Beef Invictus]

We have precisely one proven young Top 6 center and the team is going to lose him because they f***ed up their coaching hire and management structure. Both a result of their refusal to fire all the Olds who needed firing decades ago.

 

[deadhead]

But he was the best forward for the majority of the season.

Not according to Jfresh. Depends on which metrics you want to use.
Highest scoring is not synonymous with "best."

 

[Beef Invictus]

I don't think it so much punishment as the other top nine forwards playing well.

The situation isn't sustainable, but Torts doesn't want to demote Cates or Laughton to the fourth line, he's not ready to send Foerster back to LHV (so much for "he hates young players"), and he's not playing Frost with Deslauriers and Hathaway.

They're not giving Frost away, Briere isn't backed into a corner or forced to do anything.
Something will happen in the next couple weeks, I'm sure Torts and Briere have discussed their options.


Is Hayes still a Flyer?

Frost is better than several of these forwards so this is a bullshit excuse. It's a fake thing you've made up to defend the team. A lie. When you have to lie to defend a thing you shouldn't be defending it.

You do not not need to pretend every mistake this team makes isn't a mistake. It's ok to admit they're wrong.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

Laughton and Cates cant play in the 4th line because why? Because we can't scratch Nick f***in Deslauriers?

Hilarious reading these concocted explanations