2023-24 Roster Thread #5: Where the boos aren't limited to Halloween

[VladDrag]

i wasnt talking just about points man and im only talking about philly years ive said that before, you dont wanna have the same conversation though so you keep highlighting his toronto years when he was in a system that prioritized everything im talking about, you see this as someone needs to be right or that you need to prove me wrong, and all I was saying was JVR isnt known a worker/cardio/world class athlete during his time here and thats true

also you dont know what youre talking about, nothing youve done in your rugby training is cross training for hockey, except to be a goon. nobody trains like that. you learning rugby doesnt make you qualified to talk about hockey training, and nothing youve said is even remotely in the realm.

i keep editing this because i keep seeing more wild non sense, but this is the second time today ive seen someone flex being a scientist on the internet, in a conversation about the flyers. and i think thats what charlie means by online fans. you do this a lot.

So admittedly I came in a little hot, I am sorry about that. That probably set the tone for this conversation. Next time I’ll try not to be a dick right off the bat.
I don’t care about being right or wrong in a personal sense. I don’t care if JvR was a slob or if he was fit. It means very little to me either way. What I care about is knowing which one is true. I welcome new information, and conversation. I said during this time that if you can provide evidence to your statement, then I would reevaluate my position. My responses have been directed specifically at what you’ve written, not you personally, although they were strongly worded.

Here’s one thing you’ll find about me, I try my best not to lie or make anything up. I have no incentive to attempt to impress anyone on here. I have accomplished a lot, and I am proud of those things. Call it a flex if you prefer, that’s fine.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Strong thighs

 

[Tripod]

who could have thought that having:

Tk, Atkinson, Tippett, Brink, Foerster as RW, would lead to a logjam. Good job we went out and signed a UFA RW. Oh wait, kids are not able to play on the 4th line due to Dino roles.

 

[BillDineen]

Briere could not have anticipated both Couturier and Atkinson would return to form. He did not anticipate Brink. There is no reason he shouldn't be looking to trade not one, but two forwards at this point.

 

[Curufinwe]

If he trades anyone it will be Frost for pennies on the dollar.

 

[deadhead]

Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[VladDrag]

Let’s say that everything goes well this year, Couts comes back to a top line player, Frost is given another op and he becomes a legit 60-70 point center, Brink develops into a top six 50-60 point guy with potential for more, Foerster becomes a middle six guy with potential for more, Tippett, Cates continue their strong seasons, Sanheim bounces back, York continues his strong performance last year, Zamula becomes a regular, by the endo of the year, Andrae steps up shows signs of being a regular…

They are still in a position of needing 2-3 more high quality pieces. They have one in the cupboard in Michkov, but they need 1 more forward and one more d man. I just want to know what their plan is to get those players. Because in two years they have to worry about Couts, Sanheim and TK aging.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

If he trades anyone it will be Frost for pennies on the dollar.

this is the way...

 

[Beef Invictus]

Hindsight is 20/20.

There was no shortage of foresight on this issue here. Including, even, Tortorella's war on Frost continuing and destroying his value.

 

[Curufinwe]

Let’s say that everything goes well this year, Couts comes back to a top line player, Frost is given another op and he becomes a legit 60-70 point center, Brink develops into a top six 50-60 point guy with potential for more, Foerster becomes a middle six guy with potential for more, Tippett, Cates continue their strong seasons, Sanheim bounces back, York continues his strong performance last year, Zamula becomes a regular, by the endo of the year, Andrae steps up shows signs of being a regular…

They are still in a position of needing 2-3 more high quality pieces. They have one in the cupboard in Michkov, but they need 1 more forward and one more d man. I just want to know what their plan is to get those players. Because in two years they have to worry about Couts, Sanheim and TK aging.

I don't think they think that far ahead. I was so delighted with the Provorov trade that I bought into Briere's talk of a rebuild, but it's clear the real goal this season is to sneak into the playoffs.

 

[Curufinwe]

Meltzer has thoughts on Frost. I just pasted in a couple.

HockeyBuzz.com - Forums - Bill Meltzer: Wrap: Flyers Drop 3-2 Decision in Vegas

www.hockeybuzz.com

* Torts says "others are playing better" going into the Vancouver game, as the rationale for scratching Frost. It was a half-truth. SOME played better the first two games. Some didn't. But those players got mulligans. They've all subsequently started playing well in the three games since. Frost was never given that chance.

* Through six games, in which he's played five, Tyson Foerster has produced no goals, one assist (5-on-3 PPA in Ottawa), eight shots on goal but only one individual scoring chance either at 5-on-5 on the power play. His underlying metrics entering last night in Vegas were the furthest underwater of any Flyers winger. Last night, Foerster had a good on-ice Corsi night, but no shots on goal, no shot atttempts, no scoring chances, and took a chintzy penalty late in the second period that didn't result in a goal but put the Flyers back on their heel from the get-go in the third.

 

[deadhead]

Frost is a center.
Laughton is a LW who moved to center to allow two RWs to audition at LW.
Both Tippett and Foerster look out of place, not sure TK is that comfortable there either.

When Frost returns, Laughton moves back to LW, but you still have to play one RW at LW.

Foerster is likely the odd man out, he's better off playing top 6 in LHV than 4th line in Philly, he's too skilled not to keep working on his offensive game at 21.

Still think a trade is inevitable at some point, but check Friedman's 32 thoughts, some GMs are under a lot of pressure to win now - and if Briere is patient, someone can be fleeced.

 

[usahockey22flyers]

I really enjoy the Farabee - Cates - Brink line

Farabee has had a resurgence, Brink is creative, always with his head up finding his points, and honestly Cates has been really smart and at the right place at the right time

Good underlying numbers too

 

[deadhead]

Frost and Tippett need a LW, but I don't think they have a suitable one in the organization right now (maybe Gauthier next season). I'm not sold on Lycksell.
You could move Laughton to their LW, but would that be a good fit?

TK - Couts - Atkinson
Farabee - Cates - Brink
Laughton - Frost - Tippett

 

[VladDrag]

Meltzer has thoughts on Frost. I just pasted in a couple.

HockeyBuzz.com - Forums - Bill Meltzer: Wrap: Flyers Drop 3-2 Decision in Vegas

www.hockeybuzz.com

* Torts says "others are playing better" going into the Vancouver game, as the rationale for scratching Frost. It was a half-truth. SOME played better the first two games. Some didn't. But those players got mulligans. They've all subsequently started playing well in the three games since. Frost was never given that chance.

* Through six games, in which he's played five, Tyson Foerster has produced no goals, one assist (5-on-3 PPA in Ottawa), eight shots on goal but only one individual scoring chance either at 5-on-5 on the power play. His underlying metrics entering last night in Vegas were the furthest underwater of any Flyers winger. Last night, Foerster had a good on-ice Corsi night, but no shots on goal, no shot atttempts, no scoring chances, and took a chintzy penalty late in the second period that didn't result in a goal but put the Flyers back on their heel from the get-go in the third.

Wait is MJL a Frost fan or a just a Torts hater!?

 

[freakydallas13]

Meltzer has thoughts on Frost. I just pasted in a couple.

HockeyBuzz.com - Forums - Bill Meltzer: Wrap: Flyers Drop 3-2 Decision in Vegas

www.hockeybuzz.com

* Torts says "others are playing better" going into the Vancouver game, as the rationale for scratching Frost. It was a half-truth. SOME played better the first two games. Some didn't. But those players got mulligans. They've all subsequently started playing well in the three games since. Frost was never given that chance.

* Through six games, in which he's played five, Tyson Foerster has produced no goals, one assist (5-on-3 PPA in Ottawa), eight shots on goal but only one individual scoring chance either at 5-on-5 on the power play. His underlying metrics entering last night in Vegas were the furthest underwater of any Flyers winger. Last night, Foerster had a good on-ice Corsi night, but no shots on goal, no shot atttempts, no scoring chances, and took a chintzy penalty late in the second period that didn't result in a goal but put the Flyers back on their heel from the get-go in the third.

Frost is a center.
Laughton is a LW who moved to center to allow two RWs to audition at LW.
Both Tippett and Foerster look out of place, not sure TK is that comfortable there either.

When Frost returns, Laughton moves back to LW, but you still have to play one RW at LW.

Foerster is likely the odd man out, he's better off playing top 6 in LHV than 4th line in Philly, he's too skilled not to keep working on his offensive game at 21.

Still think a trade is inevitable at some point, but check Friedman's 32 thoughts, some GMs are under a lot of pressure to win now - and if Briere is patient, someone can be fleeced.

If we know one thing about centers, it's that it's physically impossible to play them at wing.

 

[deadhead]

I don't think they have any expectations of making the playoffs, that would by a happy byproduct of team building.

They do want to be competitive, do you think Zamula and York making mistakes in a tight 3rd period is more conductive to growth than scoring goals down 7-2 against a defense going through the motions? You're looking to identify and develop young players who can help you win games, not pad stats in garbage time. Being competitive (i.e., not blown out on a regular basis, did you see Boston crush Chicago?) is a better environment for player development.

Brink has put them in a bind, but so did the failure to reshuffle their forwards and find another LW.
But if you're rebuilding you put value ahead of improving the team in the short-run, if making the playoffs was the goal, Briere would have obtained a top nine LW over the summer.

 

[Striiker]

Frost > Cates but we know Torts would never scratch his son.

 

[Curufinwe]

Wait is MJL a Frost fan or a just a Torts hater!?

Mainly the latter, I think.

 

[flyersnorth]

Let’s say that everything goes well this year, Couts comes back to a top line player, Frost is given another op and he becomes a legit 60-70 point center, Brink develops into a top six 50-60 point guy with potential for more, Foerster becomes a middle six guy with potential for more, Tippett, Cates continue their strong seasons, Sanheim bounces back, York continues his strong performance last year, Zamula becomes a regular, by the endo of the year, Andrae steps up shows signs of being a regular…

They are still in a position of needing 2-3 more high quality pieces. They have one in the cupboard in Michkov, but they need 1 more forward and one more d man. I just want to know what their plan is to get those players. Because in two years they have to worry about Couts, Sanheim and TK aging.

How do you define "high quality pieces?"

I'm generally in agreement that we need more high end talent, which is most likely to come from a top 3-5 draft position.

At the same time, Vegas won with some high quality pieces for sure, but low offensive output. They had one PPG player in Eichel.

Carolina, who a lot of folks seems to think is the cream of the East, doesn't really seem to have the traditional game-breaking high end talent either.

On the flip side, there are teams like Toronto and Edmonton that have generational talents, high-octane offense, and can't seem to get any traction when it counts.

I'm torn at this point in terms of what is really needed.

One additional piece I think we absolutely need is a clear cut #1 D, which we do not currently have in the organization.

 

[FlyerNutter]

How do you define "high quality pieces?"

I'm generally in agreement that we need more high end talent, which is most likely to come from a top 3-5 draft position.

At the same time, Vegas won with some high quality pieces for sure, but low offensive output. They had one PPG player in Eichel.

Carolina, who a lot of folks seems to think is the cream of the East, doesn't really seem to have the traditional game-breaking high end talent either.

On the flip side, there are teams like Toronto and Edmonton that have generational talents, high-octane offense, and can't seem to get any traction when it counts.

I'm torn at this point in terms of what is really needed.

One additional piece I think we absolutely need is a clear cut #1 D, which we do not currently have in the organization.

There is no 1D on the team. Nothing even close to that on the back end. It’s a bunch of secondary filler, and while I am no hater of is, I sure as shit won’t pencil Sanheim as a mothership of that defense for a Stanley cup run.

The forward ranks feature a Couturier with very valid health/mileage questions moving forward, and Travis Konecny.

There is nothing here aside from that other than vanilla secondary junk that can be found on every team. They need a lot more in the way of high end talent, and I really hope they recognize that.

They are trying to, and will try to win as they obsess over. With overwhelming depth, and that mystical effort.

It’s a constant sidestep, and excuse from the FO of this team to ignore the elephant in the room being a relatively low amount of talent compared to the top teams.

Hell even the most Neanderthal way to illustrate that. Everyone plays fantasy hockey, how many Flyers are in a league? Maybe two in TK, and Hart? How many Flyers are in the top 50 of NHL point producers when seasons end? They don’t need a Draisaitl, or Hedman - but what’s here that’s even close to a tier below that?

High end talent very much remains a fatal flaw they fail to address, trying to find ways to avoid that truly evil rebuild.

 

[deadhead]

I think the Flyers need one or two high quality forwards to replace Atkinson and Laughton the next couple years, Brink may already be one, Gauthier even if he ends up at LW. Most top teams have a mix of top picks and gems they discover later in the draft (Bratt on NJ, Aho on Carolina, Marchand on Boston, etc.) If Brink is for real, check one box. If someone like Barkey can surprise . . .

You can get top six forwards picking 10-14th, heck, a healthy Farabee is looking like he's ready to take a step up this season. G and TK were picked in the 20s, Necas #12, Jarvis #13, Rantanen #10,

The bigger problem will be landing a 1st pair caliber D-man. especially a RHD.
Bonk is probably destined for 2RHD, maybe with York down the road.
Zamula, Andrae, etc. can provide depth, but that top 25 minute guy would raise the whole unit.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

One of the most universally applicable things ever said.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

How do you define "high quality pieces?"

I'm generally in agreement that we need more high end talent, which is most likely to come from a top 3-5 draft position.

At the same time, Vegas won with some high quality pieces for sure, but low offensive output. They had one PPG player in Eichel.

Carolina, who a lot of folks seems to think is the cream of the East, doesn't really seem to have the traditional game-breaking high end talent either.

On the flip side, there are teams like Toronto and Edmonton that have generational talents, high-octane offense, and can't seem to get any traction when it counts.

I'm torn at this point in terms of what is really needed.

One additional piece I think we absolutely need is a clear cut #1 D, which we do not currently have in the organization.

They need the #1 D, but I don’t know how it happens. I’d say as the last touch with a UFA when the rest of the team is ready, but not many #1s reach free agency.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Building a purely powerful roster and power-bruting your way to victory doesn't work. It's about winning in the margins. "Finesse" management. Filling your team with good players and then using them to their best potential is proving to be more effective than "traditional" team building where you try to have stacked talent in various places. It's become about impossible to do that. Lots of good and effective positive players throughout the roster easily compensates for not being flooded with 1Cs and 1Ds and a Selke contender etc

An obsession with outdated role ideas is certainly not the way to build a team that is good overall, because by design you're going to have weak spots. That's what the Flyers have done for a very long time now.