2023-24 Roster Thread #5: Where the boos aren't limited to Halloween

What is the preferred Halloween memory/tradition?


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volnoir

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Nov 13, 2015
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There is no 1D on the team. Nothing even close to that on the back end. It’s a bunch of secondary filler, and while I am no hater of is, I sure as shit won’t pencil Sanheim as a mothership of that defense for a Stanley cup run.

The forward ranks feature a Couturier with very valid health/mileage questions moving forward, and Travis Konecny.

There is nothing here aside from that other than vanilla secondary junk that can be found on every team. They need a lot more in the way of high end talent, and I really hope they recognize that.

They are trying to, and will try to win as they obsess over. With overwhelming depth, and that mystical effort.

It’s a constant sidestep, and excuse from the FO of this team to ignore the elephant in the room being a relatively low amount of talent compared to the top teams.

Hell even the most Neanderthal way to illustrate that. Everyone plays fantasy hockey, how many Flyers are in a league? Maybe two in TK, and Hart? How many Flyers are in the top 50 of NHL point producers when seasons end? They don’t need a Draisaitl, or Hedman - but what’s here that’s even close to a tier below that?

High end talent very much remains a fatal flaw they fail to address, trying to find ways to avoid that truly evil rebuild.
Seattle has taken the depth approach in that they will hit you with 4 lines of 2nd line players and overwhelm you by creating bad match ups (not saying the Flyers are currently that team are near that). They showed last year that with the slightest bit of decent goaltending they could take on the top teams in the league. They took Dallas to game 7 which ended 2-1.

There is more than 1 road to the cup. Having high end talent helps, but so does really strong depth which creates massive match-up problems.
 

flyersnorth

Registered User
Oct 7, 2019
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There is no 1D on the team. Nothing even close to that on the back end. It’s a bunch of secondary filler, and while I am no hater of is, I sure as shit won’t pencil Sanheim as a mothership of that defense for a Stanley cup run.

The forward ranks feature a Couturier with very valid health/mileage questions moving forward, and Travis Konecny.

There is nothing here aside from that other than vanilla secondary junk that can be found on every team. They need a lot more in the way of high end talent, and I really hope they recognize that.

They are trying to, and will try to win as they obsess over. With overwhelming depth, and that mystical effort.

It’s a constant sidestep, and excuse from the FO of this team to ignore the elephant in the room being a relatively low amount of talent compared to the top teams.

Hell even the most Neanderthal way to illustrate that. Everyone plays fantasy hockey, how many Flyers are in a league? Maybe two in TK, and Hart? How many Flyers are in the top 50 of NHL point producers when seasons end? They don’t need a Draisaitl, or Hedman - but what’s here that’s even close to a tier below that?

High end talent very much remains a fatal flaw they fail to address, trying to find ways to avoid that truly evil rebuild.

Don't disagree with much if anything.

In the end, for me, I wonder if Michkov and Gauthier hitting their ceilings (or close to it), with the surrounding cast picked mostly from what we have in house now is enough to start to turn this around for real.

I'm really starting to think with a #1 D, this organization would have all the fundamental pieces to build something sustainable and competitive. Of course if that #1D comes via draft, that's still 3-4 years away from that player being a real impact player.
 

FlyerNutter

In the forest, a man learns what it means to live
Jun 22, 2018
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Seattle has taken the depth approach in that they will hit you with 4 lines of 2nd line players and overwhelm you by creating bad match ups (not saying the Flyers are currently that team are near that). They showed last year that with the slightest bit of decent goaltending they could take on the top teams in the league. They took Dallas to game 7 which ended 2-1.

There is more than 1 road to the cup. Having high end talent helps, but so does really strong depth which creates massive match-up problems.

Seattle is a stupid team to build after.

It’s just on trend to pick out examples like that. Even if we dare to take a peek say at Vegas or St Louis. The level of talent they had when they won is far, and above what the Flyers have.

You are bang on though. The Flyers are modelling after Seattle. NYI. Maybe not on purpose but very much with a limited ceiling praying they catch lightning in a bottle.

I mean. Montreal did it that one year. St Louis has been incredible after their Stanley cup run off of Binnington’s hot streak, and the definition of success when looking at their season as a whole.

The Flyers would just faint if they had to properly rebuild. It’s why they constantly look for examples to justify not doing it. I mean if it gave them some success sure, but what’s just another nonsense retool after all?

The minute they decided to keep TK, and Laughton it was very clear what this was. More of the same. They’ve chosen to not sign some FAs. That does not constitute a rebuild.
 
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Beef Invictus

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Dec 21, 2009
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Seattle is a stupid team to build after.

It’s just on trend to pick out examples like that. Even if we dare to take a peek say at Vegas or St Louis. The level of talent they had when they won is far, and above what the Flyers have.

You are bang on though. The Flyers are modelling after Seattle. NYI. Maybe not on purpose but very much with a limited ceiling praying they catch lightning in a bottle.

I mean. Montreal did it that one year. St Louis has been incredible after their Stanley cup run off of Binnington’s hot streak, and the definition of success when looking at their season as a whole.

The Flyers would just faint if they had to properly rebuild. It’s why they constantly look for examples to justify not doing it. I mean if it gave them some success sure, but what’s just another nonsense retool after all?

The minute they decided to keep TK, and Laughton it was very clear what this was. More of the same.

I mean, rebuilding doesn't even matter because the biggest problem is the front office and their approach to the game. The start of a real rebuild starts with a total management overhaul.

They could begin actually rebuilding right now. It would fail because they'd do it wrong. It is intensely futile that all these same people keep being given chances to decide how this team works.
 

volnoir

Registered User
Nov 13, 2015
334
461
Seattle is a stupid team to build after.

It’s just on trend to pick out examples like that. Even if we dare to take a peek say at Vegas or St Louis. The level of talent they had when they won is far, and above what the Flyers have.

You are bang on though. The Flyers are modelling after Seattle. NYI. Maybe not on purpose but very much with a limited ceiling praying they catch lightning in a bottle.

I mean. Montreal did it that one year. St Louis has been incredible after their Stanley cup run off of Binnington’s hot streak, and the definition of success when looking at their season as a whole.

The Flyers would just faint if they had to properly rebuild. It’s why they constantly look for examples to justify not doing it. I mean if it gave them some success sure, but what’s just another nonsense retool after all?
Again I want to be clear, the Flyers do not have the talent Seattle does. However what they do have? Is very strong cap management. It will allow them to easily extend Beniers this year to likely a very large contract and as they continue to build their prospect pipeline they can continue to replace higher priced players with ECL replacements while still retaining their depth. If Seattle had any semblance of decent goaltending they would be a top of the division team.
 
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FlyerNutter

In the forest, a man learns what it means to live
Jun 22, 2018
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I mean, rebuilding doesn't even matter because the biggest problem is the front office and their approach to the game. The start of a real rebuild starts with a total management overhaul.

They could begin actually rebuilding right now. It would fail because they'd do it wrong.

Sigh.

It’s why I harp like a lunatic on a real rebuild. They aren’t firing everyone in the org. Comcast is terrified of that sadly.

They aren’t overcoming their incompetence by not having elite talent handed to them on a silver platter. I mean, even Matvei is an example of that. Who the hell do they pick if he isn’t there to be selected?

The Bonk selection might give an idea of how they think. Do I think every single person there is a moron? No, but definitely enough of them to have influence.

They can bypass the country clubs stupidity with a real rebuild. Any other approach that relies on their “front office skill” - is doomed from the outset.

I’ll just be curious for how long it takes Michkov to realize it, because it took Claude far too long.
 

Curufinwe

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Feb 28, 2013
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I predicted Hak wouldn't make the playoffs two years in a row, and I stand by that statement.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
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Pronger is an outlier. Since 1967 they have successfully traded for a Howe/Pronger level dman... twice. That's it. It's not a viable model. It's not a thing that reliably happens or can be counted upon.
I agree. But you’ve got to find it. Trade, FA, draft. Like a unicorn. They could have won with Desjardins. They didn’t win with Howe or Pronger, either. But they were close.
 
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deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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A possible 2024-25 lineup:

Farabee (23) - Cates (25) - Brink (23)
Gauthier (20) - Frost (25) - Tippett (25)
TK (27) - Couts (32) - Foerster (22)
Desnoyers (22)/Lycksell (25) - Poehling (25) - Toumaala (21)/Gendron (21)/Wisdom (22)

York (23) - Sanheim (28)
Zamula (24) - Risto (30)
Andrae (23) - Attard (25)

Hart (25), Ersson (24)
 

Beef Invictus

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Dec 21, 2009
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I agree. But you’ve got to find it. Trade, FA, draft. Like a unicorn. They could have won with Desjardins. They didn’t win with Howe or Pronger, either. But they were close.

If you're constantly building to shoot high, win in the margins, etc, eventually you'll score on someone like that. Or just have a big enough quantity of positive quality that it works as a whole. Ideally. Which is why I cannot stand the Flyers effectively punting on numerous positions because they think it's the role of that position.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
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A possible 2024-25 lineup:

Farabee (23) - Cates (25) - Brink (23)
Gauthier (20) - Frost (25) - Tippett (25)
TK (27) - Couts (32) - Foerster (22)
Desnoyers (22)/Lycksell (25) - Poehling (25) - Toumaala (21)/Gendron (21)/Wisdom (22)

York (23) - Sanheim (28)
Zamula (24) - Risto (30)
Andrae (23) - Attard (25)

Hart (25), Ersson (24)

We quite likely won't have a 2C next year. Or for a good chunk of this one.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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Flyers are 6th in xGF/60 and in xGA/60 (5x5, SVA). 11th in CF%, 4th in Fenwick%.
Small sample, but includes Dallas and Vegas on the road.
Guess that defensive system manages to control play somehow.
 

VladDrag

Registered User
Feb 6, 2018
6,375
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How do you define "high quality pieces?"

I'm generally in agreement that we need more high end talent, which is most likely to come from a top 3-5 draft position.

At the same time, Vegas won with some high quality pieces for sure, but low offensive output. They had one PPG player in Eichel.

Carolina, who a lot of folks seems to think is the cream of the East, doesn't really seem to have the traditional game-breaking high end talent either.

On the flip side, there are teams like Toronto and Edmonton that have generational talents, high-octane offense, and can't seem to get any traction when it counts.

I'm torn at this point in terms of what is really needed.

One additional piece I think we absolutely need is a clear cut #1 D, which we do not currently have in the organization.
The short answer is a top pairing d, two more very good offensive players. Not 'one of the best players in the world' level but very good.
 
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deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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The short answer is a top pairing d, two more very good offensive players. Not 'one of the best players in the world' level but very good.
I think the "two more very good offensive players" is not that high of a barrier given they seem to becoming pretty good at drafting forwards.

elite: Michkov (18),
top 6: Brink (22), Farabee (23), TK (26), Couts (31), Gauthier (19)
middle 6: Tippett (25), Frost (25), Cates (25), Foerster (21)
unknown: Gendron (20), Desnoyers (21), Barkey (18), Ciernak (18), Kaplan (19), Rizzo (22), Lycksell (24)
I excluded Atkinson and Laughton b/c I expect them to be gone by the draft next year

The top pairing D may require a trade at some point.
 

JojoTheWhale

"You should keep it." -- Striiker
May 22, 2008
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Don't disagree with much if anything.

In the end, for me, I wonder if Michkov and Gauthier hitting their ceilings (or close to it), with the surrounding cast picked mostly from what we have in house now is enough to start to turn this around for real.

I'm really starting to think with a #1 D, this organization would have all the fundamental pieces to build something sustainable and competitive. Of course if that #1D comes via draft, that's still 3-4 years away from that player being a real impact player.

I think you know that I generally respect your opinions, so I'm going to choose your post to make a larger point that has nothing to do with you individually.

Ceilings are a tricky thing to discuss and often leads to people talking passed each other. Does it mean 90th Percentile outcomes? 95th? 99th? Let's just say somewhere in that 95-99th percentile to be as positive as reasonably possible. That's something like a big shoot first Forward (Center?) who is passable defensively. Does anything really hinge on prime Mark Scheifele or is that just another very good piece on an also-ran team? To me, that's the 4th or 5th best player on a true contender. The guy that wins a Cup and then has the one article written about how underappreciated he is.

If someone quotes me Vegas' roster with six paragraphs that could be summed up with QED instead, please accept this "Go f*** yourself" in advance. I'm not engaging with that nonsense.

I think the "two more very good offensive players" is not that high of a barrier given they seem to becoming pretty good at drafting forwards.

elite: Michkov (18),
top 6: Brink (22), Farabee (23), TK (26), Couts (31), Gauthier (19)
middle 6: Tippett (25), Frost (25), Cates (25), Foerster (21)
unknown: Gendron (20), Desnoyers (21), Barkey (18), Ciernak (18), Kaplan (19), Rizzo (22), Lycksell (24)
I excluded Atkinson and Laughton b/c I expect them to be gone by the draft next year

The top pairing D may require a trade at some point.

Konecny will either not be here or making a shitton of money in his late 20s or early 30s.

We don't know if Gauthier, Brink, Farabee, Tippett, Frost, Foerster, and Cates are any good long-term yet. Have all the hope you want. I don't want to dissuade anyone from enjoying themselves. But in this case, you're doing the same thing you did under the last two GMs where you ink everyone drafted in the top 60 into lineups and then in 5 years you'll blame everyone else for overhyping them. Just stop.
 
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deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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We don't know if Gauthier, Brink, Farabee, Tippett, Frost, Foerster, and Cates are any good long-term yet. Have all the hope you want. I don't want to dissuade anyone from enjoying themselves. But in this case, you're doing the same thing you did under the last two GMs where you ink everyone drafted in the top 60 into lineups and then in 5 years you'll blame everyone else for overhyping them. Just stop.
You could say that about most players who don't have long track records.
We won't know who panned out for five years, we also won't know if anyone not expected to be a major contributor surprises.
But most of the players who performed in the NHL had a strong track record at lower levels, Patrick is an exception, but mostly due to injuries.

Brink is unknown, but so far he looks like the real deal and he has a track record of elite accomplishment at the college level.
Farabee was a top 50 scorer from 19-21 (pp/60), he looks stronger and more confident this year.
TK will either bring in substantial assets or sign a good but not great deal. He's not getting $9M a year
Gauthier is unknown, but top 5 picks who aren't flops tend to be solid top six forwards, and he's performed up to expectations since drafted.

Tippett, Frost, Cates, were all middle six quality at 23, I don't project them as top six right now.
Foerster is still unknown but has middle six talent, I think if they had a RW slot he'd be fine.

The unknowns are exactly that, too far away with too short a track record to even project.
 
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