2023-24 Roster Thread #5: Where the boos aren't limited to Halloween

[FlyerNutter]

Talent wins.

No maybe not the best team at the shootout, but the top teams generally carry a good deal of the total talent load the NHL possesses in a certain year.

The easiest way to win is to try to get an edge on teams in harvesting said talent. Be in smart decisions in drafting, signing the right FA’s, or trades - and of course putting yourself in the right spots to draft the required level of high end talent.

The Flyers fail spectacularly in categories mentioned above. So really, any kind of blueprint they might even have - is kind of irrelevant because the men they have to ensure the talent level of raised, are about as competent as cousin Eddie.

That’s been the problem, and remains the problem. Until that’s fixed we are wasting our time sadly.

 

[deadhead]

We have got to stop drawing these sweeping conclusions from playoff outcomes.

You don't need anything specific to win a Cup except at least one Forward playing like the best player in the world at the right time. That can be Couturier or Deslauriers. One is just more likely than the other.

Ideally you build your team in response to market conditions, not off of a checklist.

As Howie would tell you, have to consider scarcity and value.

But if all it took was "at least one forward playing like the best player in the world," Edmonton would have won the Cup at least twice already!

 

[JojoTheWhale]

As Howie would tell you, have to consider scarcity and value.

But if all it took was "at least one forward playing like the best player in the world," Edmonton would have won the Cup at least twice already!

That's definitely not all it takes. It takes stars and depth and luck and all of that. It's just the one thing you absolutely cannot do without because you can't get so much depth that you can ride just that to outscoring good teams over 2 months. It's more than fair to say it's usually a Center, but it can be a Winger.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Frost has always had this weird stigma he’ll never shake. He was the fastest player at the Top Prospects Game in his draft year. People said he wasn’t a great skater because visually it didn’t look like he was making an effort.

 

[deadhead]

Fast is nice, but Rinaldo was fast.

I think it's not so much that Frost doesn't look like he's making an effort, but that he doesn't use his speed to best advantage at times. Some of that is a combination of size and good but not great "shake and bake," he lacks elite elusiveness and isn't strong enough to power through defenders.

Tippett is fast and he can power through defenders b/c he's got 20 lbs on Frost. I think Tippett's "bull in a china shop" style helps Frost by clearing out open space.

TK is fast, but he lacks "shake and bake," give him a clear lane and he'll blow by people, but challenge him at the blue line and he'll dump it in b/c he struggles to beat defenders one on one.

Frost is faster than Brink, but Brink is better at controlling play (SSS of course), with his edge work and vision.

 

[ajgoal]

Frost has always had this weird stigma he’ll never shake. He was the fastest player at the Top Prospects Game in his draft year. People said he wasn’t a great skater because visually it didn’t look like he was making an effort.

So Jeff Carter 2.0?

Obviously not, but that was one of the main knocks on Carter when he was here. "He's not trying! Look at him skate!" No, his stride is just so effortless that it looks like he's not trying.

 

[deadhead]

Think it's more expectations based - he's the fastest player at the Combine, how come we don't see that speed in games?

Frost doesn't really play a speed game, at times he'll use his speed, but it's not like opponents are backing up in fear he'll blow by them. It may be that playing center makes him more cautious, wonder if he'd play more like TK, using his speed to get behind defenders, if he moved to wing.

 

[Striiker]

Frost is kinda like TK in the sense that people blamed TK for not producing or “earning” a promotion back when he was stuck in the doghouse and was getting scratched by Hak.

Now look at him. Imposing his will on games.

 

[ajgoal]

Frost is kinda like TK in the sense that people blamed TK for not producing or “earning” a promotion back when he was stuck in the doghouse and was getting scratched by Hak.

Now look at him. Imposing his will on games.

That's because Hak got TK to get in the right mindset.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I was told the game had changed and skill teams would dominate the traditional balanced teams in the playoffs. Then I saw the Caps, Blues and Golden Knights win 3 of the last 6 Cups playing a traditional game, and TB win twice with the biggest defense in the NHL.

Meanwhile, still waiting for Edmonton and Toronto to make it to the finals.

The only thing I've concluded is that good teams have depth and balance, you don't need a bunch of superstars (you do need one or two), you do need quality up and down the lineup - except for Colorado, which managed to win with the least talented bottom six in the playoffs that year.

Basically, need 16 players, top 9, top 5, 2 goalies.
top 9, b/c if they're solid, you can get away with scrubs on the 4th line
5 D-men, because due to STs, you end up having to rotate the 5th D-man in at times
2 goalies, b/c if you don't want to run your starter into the ground, the backup starts 25-30 games.

What the hell was "traditional" about the Caps, who were a skilled roster employed masterfully by Trotz?

Good Lord, this isn't worth debunking for the umpteenth time. You make shit up, it is shown to be inaccurate or fabricated or lacking vital context that is deliberately removed, and then you just say it again.

How come you're just spouting lies? Have you ever considered that when you have to lie to defend, the thing isn't worth defending?

While we are at it, what the hell is traditional? High skilled possession hockey and scoring were the way of things through the 80s and half the 90s. How come that isn't traditional? The way you win is by outperforming everyone else. Being more skilled than everyone else makes it easier to do that. That's why you should pursue skill everywhere in the lineup instead of punting on half the roster like the Flyers and Islanders and citing "tradition." The Flyers choose to be worse by chasing "tradition" and shooting low. Seems like bad management!

 

[Beef Invictus]

Think it's more expectations based - he's the fastest player at the Combine, how come we don't see that speed in games?

Frost doesn't really play a speed game, at times he'll use his speed, but it's not like opponents are backing up in fear he'll blow by them. It may be that playing center makes him more cautious, wonder if he'd play more like TK, using his speed to get behind defenders, if he moved to wing.

We do see it in games. You pretend it isn't there because Tortorella needs to be defended no matter what he does, even when he makes obvious mistakes.

 

[tnfrs]

Think it's more expectations based - he's the fastest player at the Combine, how come we don't see that speed in games?

Frost doesn't really play a speed game, at times he'll use his speed, but it's not like opponents are backing up in fear he'll blow by them. It may be that playing center makes him more cautious, wonder if he'd play more like TK, using his speed to get behind defenders, if he moved to wing.

personally i think the benefit of Frost at wing would be to force defenders to respect his speed if he starts creeping out of the zone, it will only take a few times being humiliated until opponents start backing up, i mean look at our PK, we're doing more of that at the times we should be defending and bench the guy who might be the best at it

 

[FlyerNutter]

Somehow I think it's not about defending the Flyers, it's a little more about "the way things were done in my day"

 

[Beef Invictus]

Somehow I think it's not about defending the Flyers, it's a little more about "the way things were done in my day"

Even though I strongly suspect making teams worse by shooting low in pursuit of roles is decidedly not how good teams were made in anyone's day. The Flyers current approach to hockey is a loser in every single era that has ever been and in every era that will come.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Even though I strongly suspect making teams worse by shooting low in pursuit of roles is decidedly not how good teams were made in anyone's day.

The kids these days are so entitled am I right? They have to earn it.

The game hasn't changed as much as these new age people think,a puck is still made of rubber.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The kids these days are so entitled am I right? They have to earn it.

The game hasn't changed as much as these new age people think,a puck is still made of rubber.

Watching whole games from the 80s instead of highlight reels, it is immediately striking how similar most of it is.

 

[Magua]

I watched Frost quite a bit in his draft year, enthusiastically so, and even I had to work to fit his testing numbers with his tape. I don’t think it’s revisionist to say Frost always needed to play at a better pace. He's got a long powerful stride -- he gets a lot out of it, so in that sense, his speed looks low effort. But he did have a habit of gliding and not taking strides. But lo and behold? He improved.

Frost’s biggest skill growth as a skater has been change of direction quickness from stationary positions. Stop-start bursts were not in his wheelhouse in juniors. He’s a bit stiff with his feet; he’s sort of unusually more fast than quick. But he’s leveraged his physical growth to shield pucks, which I think has helped his confidence doing those stop-starts. These are vital short area skills.

He’s cleared every bar established for him as a pro. Even early last season, Tortorella criticized him for needing more offense if he's an "offensive player" (a real complex evaluation, if ever I saw one). He finishes right behind Konecny in ES rate scoring. Now, 2 games of not even poor play, by the coach’s admission, and we’re in Scratchville. I would say that’s Frost’s pro journey in a nutshell: he’s asked to improve at specific things, he does improve, and then they arbitrarily discount them or conjure more up. This is following the guidelines in how to piss away a top 6 asset.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I watched Frost quite a bit in his draft year, enthusiastically so, and even I had to work to fit his testing numbers with his tape. I don’t think it’s revisionist to say Frost always needed to play at a better pace. He's got a long powerful stride -- he gets a lot out of it, so in that sense, his speed looks low effort. But he did have a habit of not taking strides and gliding. But lo and behold? He improved.

Frost’s biggest skill growth as a skater has been change of direction quickness from stationary positions. Stop-start bursts weren’t really his wheelhouse. He’s a bit stiff with his feet; he’s sort of unusually more fast than quick. But he’s leveraged his physical growth to shield pucks, which is another wrinkle in the last couple years. These are vital short area skills.

He’s cleared every bar established for him as a pro. Even early last season, Tortorella criticized him for needing more offense if he's an "offensive player" (a real complex evaluation, if ever I saw one). He finishes right behind Konecny in ES rate scoring. Now, 2 games of not even poor play, by the coach’s admission, and we’re in Scratchville. I would say that’s Frost’s pro journey in a nutshell: he’s asked to improve at specific things, he does improve, and then they arbitrarily discount them or conjure more up. This is following the guidelines in how to piss away a top 6 asset.

He will up his perceived effort level, then end up getting benched for trying too hard to make things happen.

 

[Magua]

He will up his perceived effort level, then end up getting benched for trying too hard to make things happen.

My hunch is Tortorella wants Frost to fight him when he plays these mind games. Frost acting professional and taking responsibility in his scratching, even when he did nothing wrong, irks Tortorella. This is not the Culture he is trying to instill.

 

[Striiker]

That's because Hak got TK to get in the right mindset.

Obviously. All improvements are coaching, all failures are effort, attitude, and size.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Will be very interesting to see what they do with Matvei.

Pace, and a perception of 100% effort with every breath is the "standard" this org is obsessed with. The Clarke STD that is very much alive.

Smart players know how to slow the game down at times, and that's coming from a guy infatuated with plus skating as a base for NHL talent. Frost is lost already, and while annoying - not a kill shot so to speak.

Not extracting all the talent available out of the actual top end guys, with the same moronic process is the actual issue.

 

[Striiker]

My hunch is Tortorella wants Frost to fight him when he plays these mind games. Frost acting professional and taking responsibility in his scratching, even when he did nothing wrong, irks Tortorella. This is not the Culture he is trying to instill.

Meltzer did explicitly state that Frost is a really nice kid who everyone gets along with and that attitude definitely was not the issue here, so that makes sense.

 

[ponder719]

My hunch is Tortorella wants Frost to fight him when he plays these mind games. Frost acting professional and taking responsibility in his scratching, even when he did nothing wrong, irks Tortorella. This is not the Culture he is trying to instill.

We ostensibly acquired shitty veterans to protect our young skill players. If they want to earn their money, how about speaking up when the coach is being a dickhead? That would be actual protection, not the stupid horseshit they do nothing to stop on the ice.

 

[Curufinwe]

Really no hurry from the team to get Risto back in the lineup, huh.

 

[VladDrag]

Not necessarily comparing Frost and Konecny. Just using Konecny to illustrate the concept I’m referring to when I talk about a player who imposes his will on the game.

I don’t substantively disagree with anything you‘re saying, including the impact of linemates. I have no doubt he would be a far more productive player with consistently better linemates and opportunity. I think that’s both fair and obvious. He clearly has the talent to succeed in that role. But obviously if his production is so dependent on circumstance, then he’s not the primary weapon. Maybe Nazem Kadri is a relevant comp here, since Gagner ruffled some feathers. Kadri’s a very good & useful player who can play on a top line, but he’s not the guy who makes a first line a good first line. He’s a player who can play with top players and help make things work. I think we all hoped he would be his own top line threat given his junior career, and that outcome does seem like it’s probably not in the cards for him. That’s OK. He can still be a very useful player.

I’m really not intending to sleight Frost. I think that a Kadri outcome would be great, and I think he can get there. It’s true that 150 games isn’t huge, but it is a meaningful sample when we’re talking about a 24 year old player with some junior pedigree. And to date, he hasn’t forced the issue, and there are reasons why he hasn’t exactly made his role one that’s hard to deny. Like I’ve been saying, he’s a relatively passive type of player, which means when he’s not actively creating chances, he‘s largely invisible. He’s not the kind of player that’s a magnet with the puck or loudly causing turnovers. He’s a skilled player who makes things happen with creative reads when opportunities present themselves.

There's no point in typing the same basic responses again. As I said at the beginning of the convo, I don't think we're miles apart on thought process, just a bit nuanced.

Thanks for a quality convo.