2023-24 Roster Thread #5: Where the boos aren't limited to Halloween

[tnfrs]

Deslauriers is a total passenger. They could get better results by inserting any one of four other guys.

development system must be the best in the world if we have so many guys that can lead the league in expected goals in a 4th line role

 

[freakydallas13]

I guess Frost ---> Sam Gagner is the new 'Provorov's floor ---> Hampus Lindholm'.

Don't forget the classic: Gauthier worst case scenario ---> 30+ goal scoring wing.

 

[FLYguy3911]

The fourth line is getting about as much ES time as every other line. Could probably skate a “young” player on that line without fear.

 

[Curufinwe]

Sam Gagner 2.0

 

[BiggE]

The Flyers have made bad decision after bad decision basically since 2012:
Trading JVR for Schenn
Firing Lavi 3 games into 13-14 rather than at the end of 12-13
Drafting Morin 11thOA in 2013
Hakstol
Taking Rubtsov 22OA in 2016
Taking Patrick over Heiskanen or Makar in 17
Replacing Hextall with Cuck, not that firing Hextall was wrong, but replacing him with an imbecile was the problem
Hiring AV and his French monkey sidekick
Acquiring Hayes
Running Jake & Ghost out of town
Mike Yeo
Hiring the God Emperor as HC
Acquiring and extending Fisto
Hilferty & Jones
And probably Briere

This whole timeline reeks of Bob Clarke’s spittoon. If not for the memories of 1972-2012, I would have abandoned this franchise years ago. They are a joke.

 

[tnfrs]

The Flyers have made bad decision after bad decision basically since 2012:
Trading JVR for Schenn
Firing Lavi 3 games into 13-14 rather than at the end of 12-13
Drafting Morin 11thOA in 2013
Hakstol
Taking Rubtsov 22OA in 2016
Taking Patrick over Heiskanen or Makar in 17
Replacing Hextall with Cuck, not that firing Hextall was wrong, but replacing him with an imbecile was the problem
Hiring AV and his French monkey sidekick
Acquiring Hayes
Running Jake & Ghost out of town
Mike Yeo
Hiring the God Emperor as HC
Acquiring and extending Fisto
Hilferty & Jones
And probably Briere

This whole timeline reeks of Bob Clarke’s spittoon. If not for the memories of 1972-2012, I would have abandoned this franchise years ago. They are a joke.

you forgot jay obrien

 

[bennysflyers16]

Deslauriers is a total passenger. They could get better results by inserting any one of four other guys.

No one here has a problem with 2/3 of that line,

Laughton Poheling Hathaway we would all get behind.

 

[deadhead]

We know Frost and Tippett are fast.
This is the one that is surprising: "Bobby Brink has 70th percentile foot speed."
Must have really worked hard on his skating, edge work was never a question, but straight line speed.

Be interesting to see if Rizzo can make a similar jump as a skater as he fills out, like Brink, he's an elite college playmaker, if he can make a similar improvement in his skating . . .

On the other hand, there was Strome, and now Knuble?

 

[tnfrs]

We know Frost and Tippett are fast.
This is the one that is surprising: "Bobby Brink has 70th percentile foot speed."
Must have really worked hard on his skating, edge work was never a question, but straight line speed.

Be interesting to see if Rizzo can make a similar jump as a skater as he fills out, like Brink, he's an elite college playmaker, if he can make a similar improvement in his skating . . .

On the other hand, there was Strome, and now Knuble?

some guys just work harder. imagine phil kessel if he was a gym rat he would have been a lot closer to auston mathews than jj frankie jj. plus brink would have been working with the best rehab team after his hip surgery who would given him the right exercises and made sure his form was on point, and maybe he just fell in love with training. some guys just take to it more than others especially smaller dudes

 

[flyerslducks]

like laczynski is down in the AHL right now and he's lighting it up, he's more valuable playing with Samu and Gendron in the AHL than he is playing 10 min a night on our 4th line this year

Idk, laczynski isn’t projected to be a top 6 player for us anyway. He would def be better than deslaurier and make thst 4th line even stronger. Eventually, we need to give players a chance to stick with the team and carve out roles, even in the bottom 6. We have more bottom 6 prospect talent that shojld develop and carve out roles for our bottom 6….but they can’t do that when we sign plugs for 3 years

 

[deadhead]

Idk, laczynski isn’t projected to be a top 6 player for us anyway. He would def be better than deslaurier and make thst 4th line even stronger. Eventually, we need to give players a chance to stick with the team and carve out roles, even in the bottom 6

He's a C/RW.
5 games are too SSS, but beware of stat padding on AHL powerplays;
ES numbers:
Laczynski 5g 0-2 2
Lycksell 5g 2-0 2
Marody 5g 1-0 1
Tuomaala 5g 0-2 2
Attard 5g 1-2 3
Desnoyers 5g 1-2 3
Gendron 3g 2-0 2

 

[tnfrs]

Idk, laczynski isn’t projected to be a top 6 player for us anyway. He would def be better than deslaurier and make thst 4th line even stronger. Eventually, we need to give players a chance to stick with the team and carve out roles, even in the bottom 6. We have more bottom 6 prospect talent that shojld develop and carve out roles for our bottom 6….but they can’t do that when we sign plugs for 3 years

hes not projected to be any kind of player for us, but his skillset makes him a really good top 6 player in the AHL and he can play the skill game down there with skill prospects instead of playing a 4th line role in the NHL. lacz isnt down in the AHL to wait for a call up, hes theres to play on the top line with prospects.

 

[Rich Nixon]

He's a C/RW.
5 games are too SSS, but beware of stat padding on AHL powerplays;
ES numbers:
Laczynski 5g 0-2 2
Lycksell 5g 2-0 2
Marody 5g 1-0 1
Tuomaala 5g 0-2 2
Attard 5g 1-2 3
Desnoyers 5g 1-2 3
Gendron 3g 2-0 2

That's right. Players in the AHL pad their stats on PPs, but in the NHL it's rare for teams to score PP goals ever.

 

[deadhead]

That's right. Players in the AHL pad their stats on PPs, but in the NHL it's rare for teams to score PP goals ever.

When you're trying to compare players, you want an 'even playing field,' how players perform at ES to me is a better indicator of NHL potential than scoring against inferior PKs.

Think of the LHV veterans who put up big PP numbers the last few years, then you watch them 5x5 and realize they simply can't skate well enough to get a cup of coffee in the NHL.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Soon Frost and Gagner can settle this in the AHL.

 

[Tripod]

No one here has a problem with 2/3 of that line,

Laughton Poheling Hathaway we would all get behind.

Except at that point, we know it's better to trade Laughton for a 1st+ and use someone else in that spot....like an Allison.

I 100% think Torts told Briere not to trade Laughton because he was not sold in Frost playing so we needed to keep Laughton. Plus, the leadership.

When you're trying to compare players, you want an 'even playing field,' how players perform at ES to me is a better indicator of NHL potential than scoring against inferior PKs.

Think of the LHV veterans who put up big PP numbers the last few years, then you watch them 5x5 and realize they simply can't skate well enough to get a cup of coffee in the NHL.

And how did Frost do at ES last year?

You know, compared to the 12 guys dressing at night instead of him.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It simply isn't this hard to admit Tortorella is wrong, and that you were wrong about him.

 

[PDX Flyer]

The Flyers have made bad decision after bad decision basically since 2012:
Trading JVR for Schenn
Firing Lavi 3 games into 13-14 rather than at the end of 12-13
Drafting Morin 11thOA in 2013
Hakstol
Taking Rubtsov 22OA in 2016
Taking Patrick over Heiskanen or Makar in 17
Replacing Hextall with Cuck, not that firing Hextall was wrong, but replacing him with an imbecile was the problem
Hiring AV and his French monkey sidekick
Acquiring Hayes
Running Jake & Ghost out of town
Mike Yeo
Hiring the God Emperor as HC
Acquiring and extending Fisto
Hilferty & Jones
And probably Briere

This whole timeline reeks of Bob Clarke’s spittoon. If not for the memories of 1972-2012, I would have abandoned this franchise years ago. They are a joke.

Running G out of town....

 

[JojoTheWhale]

‘This is how things are done because this is how things have always been done,” is not an argument ever worth your time. Nor are the people who wield it like a cudgel.

 

[Tripod]

It will soon be over when we trade Frost to Ottawa for Pinto+ cap.

Pinto projects to be a 3rd line C....exactly what they want.

 

[deadhead]

I was told the game had changed and skill teams would dominate the traditional balanced teams in the playoffs. Then I saw the Caps, Blues and Golden Knights win 3 of the last 6 Cups playing a traditional game, and TB win twice with the biggest defense in the NHL.

Meanwhile, still waiting for Edmonton and Toronto to make it to the finals.

The only thing I've concluded is that good teams have depth and balance, you don't need a bunch of superstars (you do need one or two), you do need quality up and down the lineup - except for Colorado, which managed to win with the least talented bottom six in the playoffs that year.

Basically, need 16 players, top 9, top 5, 2 goalies.
top 9, b/c if they're solid, you can get away with scrubs on the 4th line
5 D-men, because due to STs, you end up having to rotate the 5th D-man in at times
2 goalies, b/c if you don't want to run your starter into the ground, the backup starts 25-30 games.

 

[freakydallas13]

I was told the game had changed and skill teams would dominate the traditional balanced teams in the playoffs.

I was told Torts benches everyone.

 

[FlyerNutter]

I was told the game had changed and skill teams would dominate the traditional balanced teams in the playoffs. Then I saw the Caps, Blues and Golden Knights win 3 of the last 6 Cups playing a traditional game, and TB win twice with the biggest defense in the NHL.

Meanwhile, still waiting for Edmonton and Toronto to make it to the finals.

The only thing I've concluded is that good teams have depth and balance, you don't need a bunch of superstars (you do need one or two), you do need quality up and down the lineup - except for Colorado, which managed to win with the least talented bottom six in the playoffs that year.

Basically, need 16 players, top 9, top 5, 2 goalies.
top 9, b/c if they're solid, you can get away with scrubs on the 4th line
5 D-men, because due to STs, you end up having to rotate the 5th D-man in at times
2 goalies, b/c if you don't want to run your starter into the ground, the backup starts 25-30 games.

And one wonders why US colleges are pile of dogshit

 

[JojoTheWhale]

We have got to stop drawing these sweeping conclusions from playoff outcomes.

You don't need anything specific to win a Cup except at least one Forward playing like the best player in the world at the right time. That can be Couturier or Deslauriers. One is just more likely than the other.

Ideally you build your team in response to market conditions, not off of a checklist.

 

[Random Forest]

So I don’t think a comparison of Frost vs TK is fair. TK is the legit, top-line forward on this team. He’s so clearly the best player and one of the best RWers in the NHL, but he’s not given good offensive players. He plays with centers like Laughton and Cates over the last two seasons. I have been on the record that he could be a 90 point winger with a quality center. So if you want Frost to be that player, I would say that’s the 99th percentile outcome. It is not likely to happen.



I dont see a player who goes truly invisible for games at a times.. I just don’t. I do see a guy who is inconsistent offensively at times…but there are a lot of factors. Teammates play a HUGE part effectiveness. Please take my word in that, I am a huge stat guy and one thing I have realized is teammates are super important in effectiveness, both in helping and hindering. last season I clamored he should play with TK and Farabee, instead of Cates. When TK and Frost played together last season, their metrics are top line players (150 mins - so small sample but not nothing, like xGF/60 as good as McDavid and Draisaitl. When he’s been given opportunity he’s shown the ability to perform.

Also Frost has only played like 150 games in the NHL. It’s not that many. Casey Mittlesttadt played 150 games before the start of last season (60 point campaign), MacKinnon took 300 games before he became a 100 point player, for every Gagner type of player there’s a MacKinnon… to be clear I don’t think Frost is a 90 point player, my point is that it takes time to get used to playing in the NHL, even for some of the best.

EDIT -That xGF number isn’t as close as I thought (3.27 vs 3.76), but still that 3.27 is very good.

Not necessarily comparing Frost and Konecny. Just using Konecny to illustrate the concept I’m referring to when I talk about a player who imposes his will on the game.

I don’t substantively disagree with anything you‘re saying, including the impact of linemates. I have no doubt he would be a far more productive player with consistently better linemates and opportunity. I think that’s both fair and obvious. He clearly has the talent to succeed in that role. But obviously if his production is so dependent on circumstance, then he’s not the primary weapon. Maybe Nazem Kadri is a relevant comp here, since Gagner ruffled some feathers. Kadri’s a very good & useful player who can play on a top line, but he’s not the guy who makes a first line a good first line. He’s a player who can play with top players and help make things work. I think we all hoped he would be his own top line threat given his junior career, and that outcome does seem like it’s probably not in the cards for him. That’s OK. He can still be a very useful player.

I’m really not intending to sleight Frost. I think that a Kadri outcome would be great, and I think he can get there. It’s true that 150 games isn’t huge, but it is a meaningful sample when we’re talking about a 24 year old player with some junior pedigree. And to date, he hasn’t forced the issue, and there are reasons why he hasn’t exactly made his role one that’s hard to deny. Like I’ve been saying, he’s a relatively passive type of player, which means when he’s not actively creating chances, he‘s largely invisible. He’s not the kind of player that’s a magnet with the puck or loudly causing turnovers. He’s a skilled player who makes things happen with creative reads when opportunities present themselves.

I guess Frost ---> Sam Gagner is the new 'Provorov's floor ---> Hampus Lindholm'.

Sam Gagner 2.0

Ha. Ha. Ha. You guys can feel free to dunk. I didn’t say Frost is Gagner 2.0. I said that there are elements missing to his game that make it not-obvious that he will develop into what we hoped he might be after his junior career. I know, really crazy thought.