2023-24 Roster Thread #5: Where the boos aren't limited to Halloween

[tnfrs]

What are the rules for posting advanced stats?

I read “small sample” when Frost is the worst of two games. But then I also read post-single-game reports about how a line was “caved.”

Then we get your 5-game report that the PhD line is top 10 in the league in expected goals, but I presume that is a small sample.

its not my report i just didnt post the credit with it my bad, its from money puck I just thought it was funny the culture line is on the list

idk about any rules though man, i like to fly fast and loose and shoot from the hip

 

[Ghosts Beer]

its not my report i just didnt post the credit with it my bad, its from money puck I just thought it was funny the culture line is on the list

idk about any rules though man, i like to fly fast and loose and shoot from the hip

I’m just joking with you. I think the 4th line has been good & I enjoyed the stat.

 

[VladDrag]

I get this, but again, Sam Gagner had stretches of similar production early in his career too. I think Frost should be afforded every opportunity to prove that he is That Guy, but it’s not just about picking out his best career stretch and extrapolating what he could theoretically be. It’s about what he’s able to do on a game by game basis, which is why having regular invisible games and shifts is concerning.

I want to say we are on the same page for the most part so don’t take this as an attack on your position, more of an in-depth conversation.

I would first say that projecting how good a young skater can do is looking at just how well he performs and then trying to maximize that effectiveness. So, in some regard I think player development is about extrapolating what a player could theoretically be based on past experiences.

Next, only the best in the world are ppg players who are consistent. That’s why they are the best in the world. They are able to consistently generate scoring chances that turn into points. What standard are we holding him to?

Finally, I think Forst has a consistency to his game. Even when he’s not scoring he’s doing positive things on the ice. I am not attacking you with this comment, but I struggle to trust people who don’t see how good Frost is in those aspects. Even the two games he played, you would pick out 5-10 smart plays that helped the club. Even Torts said ‘he didn’t play bad, but just not good.’

I agree that he should have more leash if for no other reason than for us to learn what he actually is, but simply based on his player profile, I struggle to see a guy who puts it together consistently enough to be a primary weapon.

What specifically about his profile? That’s a genuine question, because I am not sure specifically what you mean here. And it goes back to a previous question, what do you mean by primary weapon?

 

[Striiker]

Getting some interesting “Couturier is just a 3C” vibes from all these Frost debates.

Obviously very different players, but the whole idea that a lack of offensive visibility/production must be his fault,
means he can’t be more, and means he hasn’t earned a bigger role definitely feels familiar. Particularly when he’s proven he has the offensive ability but clearly isn’t given a chance to show it.

 

[VladDrag]

What are the rules for posting advanced stats?

I read “small sample” when Frost is the worst of two games. But then I also read post-single-game reports about how a line was “caved.”

Then we get your 5-game report that the PhD line is top 10 in the league in expected goals, but I presume that is a small sample.

Typically it’s around the ~200 minute mark when data gets normalized, for player evaluations.

But when your using that data to describe what happened in a single game, the sample size is the sample size. When someone says line x was caved last night, it’s means nothing other than that. You can’t use it to say player x sucks or whatever. It only says that player sucked last night…btw the Poehling line let lots of shot attempts against, but either blocked a lot of them, or kept the other team to the outsides. They did well enough in the scoring chances department.

 

[renberg]

It’s disgusting when coaches look at players who have skills and reject them for silly reasons. AV did that specifically with, among others, Ghost and Jake and now Tortorella is doing that with Frost. Sure a coach wants players to improve and needs to lean on them from time to time in order to get that to happen. However the coach has to look at a players skills and figure out how best to use them for the betterment of the team.

 

[Striiker]

It’d still be stupid, but it’d make more sense if Frost was poor defensively, but that’s not even the case. There’s not even a clear flaw in his game for the coach to be hyper-focused on.

He’s literally only hated due to stereotypes.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

I’m just glad we’re getting the same victory laps we get every year with the early season boom.

 

[deadhead]

It’s disgusting when coaches look at players who have skills and reject them for silly reasons. AV did that specifically with, among others, Ghost and Jake and now Tortorella is doing that with Frost. Sure a coach wants players to improve and needs to lean on them from time to time in order to get that to happen. However the coach has to look at a players skills and figure out how best to use them for the betterment of the team.

Meh. Torts benches everyone.

I do think they want to be competitive for player evaluation reasons, people want to play all prospects, the problem is you get blown out on a regular basis and opposing teams play at 80%, while a lot of the game is garbage time, so what might look like a good performance will evaporate as soon as the team is good enough for opponents to take seriously.

Whereas playing competitive games gives you a much better sense of how your young players are progressing - do they step up in the 3rd period of tight games? do they make mistakes under pressure? Especially games like @Dallas, @Vegas. These are "measuring stick" games.

But to field a competitive (not a playoff team, just a team that is in most games like the Flyers have been under Torts) team, you need enough solid veterans so you're not expecting a bunch of inexperienced kids to match up against good teams.

So you balance playing veterans to remain competitive and playing kids to develop and evaluate them.

 

[freakydallas13]

Meh. Torts benches everyone.

I do think they want to be competitive for player evaluation reasons, people want to play all prospects, the problem is you get blown out on a regular basis and opposing teams play at 80%, while a lot of the game is garbage time, so what might look like a good performance will evaporate as soon as the team is good enough for opponents to take seriously.

Whereas playing competitive games gives you a much better sense of how your young players are progressing - do they step up in the 3rd period of tight games? do they make mistakes under pressure? Especially games like @Dallas, @Vegas. These are "measuring stick" games.

But to field a competitive (not a playoff team, just a team that is in most games like the Flyers have been under Torts) team, you need enough solid veterans so you're not expecting a bunch of inexperienced kids to match up against good teams.

So you balance playing veterans to remain competitive and playing kids to develop and evaluate them.

Torts benches everyone.

 

[kudymen]

I’m just glad we’re getting the same victory laps we get every year with the early season boom.

How many days til the other annual thingy, "October/Nomveber games dont matter"?

 

[tnfrs]

How many days til the other annual thingy, "October/Nomveber games dont matter"?

who says that?

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

who says that?

We’ve heard it for years.

You’re new around here so you wouldn’t know, unless…

 

[tnfrs]

We’ve heard it for years.

You’re new around here so you wouldn’t know, unless…

unless what?

 

[deadhead]

They don't in the sense you shouldn't read much into the first few games, it takes about 20 games to get a feel for players/teams, as VladDrag points out, 200+ minutes for metrics to settle down.

Which is why I like them hanging in with good teams early in the season, but I don't think that makes them a good team.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

who says that?

oh believe me it coming...

 

[Flyer lurker]

For the poll where was flyers starting strong and fooling the idiots?

 

[tnfrs]

For the poll where was flyers starting strong and fooling the idiots?

i dont think theyre fooled, but they sure dont like torts

 

[wankstifier]

Is Couturier tradeable yet?

 

[tnfrs]

Is Couturier tradeable yet?

why would they do that right now though?

 

[Beef Invictus]

How about "I got to keep working on my game and my strengths". Not basically saying the same way he played last year is what is wrong.

Dude is folding. "Not moving my feet" is bullshit he was skating in those first 2 games.

Flyers development!

 

[Beef Invictus]

I’m just glad we’re getting the same victory laps we get every year with the early season boom.

I love how none of them ever learn.

 

[Cody Webster]

"Torts benches everyone"

How can you say that with a straight face? Might be the dumbest thing I've read today

 

[CerpinTaxt]

"Torts benches everyone"

How can you say that with a straight face? Might be the dumbest thing I've read today

It's too bad they don't allow players over 26 to be rookies anymore. Imagine the butt hole clenching John would do if he had to decide to play or bench a 35 year old rookie

 

[Striiker]

Is Couturier tradeable yet?

You don’t trade your 1C a year before you compete…