2023-24 Roster Thread #5: Where the boos aren't limited to Halloween

[blackjackmulligan]

Why would you hope for Frost to bust? That makes no sense.

You did indeed call him a bust repeatedly. And you defended the process with him by blaming him for everything. As always.

yes I do. because of peeps like you.

No I did not. Defended no such process. Keep pushing kevin.

 

[Curufinwe]

It’s strange the lengths we’re going to in order to keep a will-be 27 year old goaltender whose only extended body of work produced an .880 sv%

It is weird, but I don't really mind it while they're still able to carry 13 healthy forwards and 7 healthy dmen.

 

[FlyerNutter]

It's Jones' job to lie to the fanbase. Nothing has changed, but he dresses it up like it has. It's one big fraud.

It’s obvious as hell when the Flyers have tried to kiss ass of their biggest critics.

STG, and BSH were pretty vocal last season. It’s a very different vibe now.

 

[deadhead]

It is defending. You defended the process with Frost, too. Even though it was blatantly bad. You fully blamed him, and repeatedly called him a bust. Turns out he wasn't a bust. He was just being handled wretchedly. Still is.

Every time someone spots a bad development process at work, you insist it's fine.

He wasn't handled wretchedly, they gave him a shot at 20, he was exposed on the road where he couldn't be protected. He would have gotten another shot at 21, but he got injured. At 22, he got plenty of PT and didn't show much at either end of the ice. 14 ES points in 55 games playing 11:58. Didn't flash anything until he was paired with Tippett at the end of the season. Even then, he only scored 1.33 pp/60.

He's blossomed under Torts, but of course it was despite him, but his failures were due to the organization - heads you win, tails I lose.

 

[GKJ]

It’s obvious as hell when the Flyers have tried to kiss ass of their biggest critics.

STG, and BSH were pretty vocal last season. It’s a very different vibe now.

The vibe always surrounded Chuck, Dave Scott, and Val Camillo. All three are gone, the lowest common denominator was placated, they don’t know better to remain skeptical about more nuanced and minutia of operations. No one is going to crusade over development coaches or assistant front office personnel or even Brent Flahr because they’re not told to do it.

 

[Beef Invictus]

He wasn't handled wretchedly, they gave him a shot at 20, he was exposed on the road where he couldn't be protected. He would have gotten another shot at 21, but he got injured. At 22, he got plenty of PT and didn't show much at either end of the ice. 14 ES points in 55 games playing 11:58. Didn't flash anything until he was paired with Tippett at the end of the season. Even then, he only scored 1.33 pp/60.

He's blossomed under Torts, but of course it was despite him, but his failures were due to the organization - heads you win, tails I lose.

He was handled wretchedly, and he is succeeding against Tortorella's vitriol and dislike. If Briere didn't have his back he'd be gone. He had blossomed long before but the team refused to give him the chance to show it. The only reason he had the year he did was because injuries forced the team to let it happen. His camp may yet demand a trade to get away from the most hated coach in the league

 

[Curufinwe]

Didn't flash anything until he was paired with Tippett at the end of the season. Even then, he only scored 1.33 pp/60.

I love how this is the knock against Frost in his 22 year old season coming back from a major injury, while a fully healthy Cates scoring at 1.37 P/60 at 5on5 in his 23 year old season while having Konency, Farabee and Tippett as his most common linemates is not a problem whatsoever.

Noah Cates - Teammates - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

Konency - 2.26 P/60
Farabee - 1.92 P/60
Tippett - 1.85 P/60
Cates - 1.37 P/60

 

[FlyerNutter]

The vibe always surrounded Chuck, Dave Scott, and Val Camillo. All three are gone, the lowest common denominator was placated, they don’t know better to remain skeptical about more nuanced and minutia of operations. No one is going to crusade over development coaches or assistant front office personnel or even Brent Flahr because they’re not told to do it.

I’ll openly say I’m annoyed with Matz. They had a decent little fan community for his postgame pod.

He’s moved to mocking the “online segment” of the fanbase that dares to question things.

As far as I see it they are grovelling for more opportunities from the team. As always, this org would have been eviscerated if the last decade was ongoing as it has been - were it Canada.

The Philly media is bought, and paid for.

 

[GKJ]

I’ll openly say I’m annoyed with Matz. They had a decent little fan community for his postgame pod.

He’s moved to mocking the “online segment” of the fanbase that dares to question things.

As far as I see it they are grovelling for more opportunities from the team. As always, this org would have been eviscerated if the last decade was ongoing as it has been - were it Canada.

The Philly media is bought, and paid for.

I haven’t listened to either one recently so I don’t know what anyone’s saying. I don’t know who he’s specifically talking about because I don’t see it on Twitter because nobody’s talking about the Flyers.

 

[Curufinwe]

Funny how Jfresh is an expert when it comes to players people *edit* doesn't like, but when he ranked Cates well above Frost, crickets.

He didn't "rank" anyone. Unlike Frost, Cates' player card is based on only 90 ish games where he had great defensive results while being totally healthy and getting to play with the best wingers on the team. Offensively, he's been objectively poor except for his first 15 games when he played with Frost.

And you didn't even attempt to respond to my actual point. Because you can't. Because you're unbelievably bad at this.——

 

[deadhead]

He didn't "rank" anyone. Cates' player card is based on 90 games.

And you didn't even attempt to respond to my actual point. Because you can't. Because you're unbelievably bad at this. Go get another hobby, gramps.

He didn't "rank" anyone. Cates' player card is based on 90 games.

And you didn't even attempt to respond to my actual point. Because you can't. Because you're unbelievably bad at this. Go get another hobby, gramps.

Cates wasn't even playing center on a regular basis until the last 56 games.

And Frost's scoring is inflated by an unsustainable Sh% and a relatively high rate of secondary assists.

No one has suggested Cates is as good on offense as Frost, but he's clearly superior defensively.

And both players are question marks until they perform for a full season.

 

[Curufinwe]

Cates wasn't even playing center on a regular basis until the last 56 games.

(edit)In the first 26 games he took 292 faceoffs, only slightly less than Hayes and Laughton.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Torts moved Hayes to wing in November.

‘We’ve got more work to do’: Flyers coach John Tortorella is still seeking more from Kevin Hayes

Hayes will move to the wing starting Monday against the Calgary Flames.

www.inquirer.com

 

[Curufinwe]

a very odd thing to say the least. Cracks me up everything frost is mentioned someone brings up cates.

Cates is mentioned when laughably hypocritical posts are made about Frost, like someone complaining Frost only scored at 1.33 P/60 at on 5on5 in his injury affected 21-22 season, while Cates scoring at 1.37 P/60 at 5on5 in his fully healthy 22/23 season with much better linemates is ignored.

 

[deadhead]

Frost was healthy the end of 2021-22 when he was paired with Tippett.
They did a good job of puck control but struggled finishing.
Which is why I look at xGF/60 as much as pp/60, scoring tends to be more stochastic.
Frost had bad puck luck during that stretch, and good puck luck to end last season.
We'll see how both do over a full season.

 

[Tripod]

Didn't Zanetti go to the WJC?
Who actually excelled at the WJC like Gauthier has?

Wait, so from my post you decide that the "gotcha" is asking what prospect we had that excelled like a #5 overall pick? Shouldn't he be EXPECTED to excel?

And you conveniently ignored the part where I ask who got better in the AHL to exceed expectations.

Oh....but here is an answer to the Cutter question who had 10 pts 7 games. Vorobyev himself had 10 pts in 7 games at the WJC. Sushko had 8 pts in 6 games. To say we didn't draft skill during the Hextall years is just a flat out lie.

oh, and Provy had 8 pts in 7 games at the WJC but again as a high pick, I expect good results.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Wait, so from my post you decide that the "gotcha" is asking what prospect we had that excelled like a #5 overall pick? Shouldn't he be EXPECTED to excel?

And you conveniently ignored the part where I ask who got better in the AHL to exceed expectations.

Oh....but here is an answer to the Cutter question who had 10 pts 7 games. Vorobyev himself had 10 pts in 7 games at the WJC. Sushko had 8 pts in 6 games. To say we didn't draft skill during the Hextall years is just a flat out lie.

oh, and Provy had 8 pts in 7 games at the WJC but again as a high pick, I expect good results.

We just had Provorov confirming the kind of misuse we have called out for both him and numerous others, too.

 

[Audible Velvet]

Wait, so from my post you decide that the "gotcha" is asking what prospect we had that excelled like a #5 overall pick? Shouldn't he be EXPECTED to excel?

And you conveniently ignored the part where I ask who got better in the AHL to exceed expectations.

Oh....but here is an answer to the Cutter question who had 10 pts 7 games. Vorobyev himself had 10 pts in 7 games at the WJC. Sushko had 8 pts in 6 games. To say we didn't draft skill during the Hextall years is just a flat out lie.

oh, and Provy had 8 pts in 7 games at the WJC but again as a high pick, I expect good results.

I remember when the WJC was absolutely littered with Flyers prospects. It wasn’t that long ago.
Not so much hype on the farm lately.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Jones may very well be telling the truth, however the Flyers brass have not earned the right to have fans believe them. They keep acting like we are all stupid

 

[deadhead]

I remember when the WJC was absolutely littered with Flyers prospects. It wasn’t that long ago.
Not so much hype on the farm lately.

I'll take prospects who actually perform in the NHL than the WJC.

Vorobyev is a good example, good passer, but mediocre skater and despite his size, was allergic to contact, so you had a playmaking center who wasn't fast enough for a scoring role and refused to use his body in a checking role. Even in the KHL it took him three years to win a top 6 job.

Sushko simply flatlined in the AHL, D+1, D+2, 60 and 51 points in the OHL, 32 and 17 points in the AHL, 16 points in 63 KHL games. There was nothing there to develop.

Holmgren/Hextall didn't draft many with offensive skills after the first rd, Kase but injuries derailed him, he wasn't his brother. Kalynuk pretty much flatlined, cameo with Chicago, now in his 3rd AHl season. And so on. Ratcliffe could score goals in junior hockey, but couldn't translate that to the AHL (25 goals in 181 games, compare to say Desnoyers), much less the NHL.

 

[Audible Velvet]

Jones may very well be telling the truth, however the Flyers brass have not earned the right to have fans believe them. They keep acting like we are all stupid

Exactly this.

 

[Magua]

I'll take prospects who actually perform in the NHL than the WJC.

I, too, prefer a winning lottery ticket over a losing lottery ticket.

 

[deadhead]

Jones may very well be telling the truth, however the Flyers brass have not earned the right to have fans believe them. They keep acting like we are all stupid

What are they going to say?

Basically, it comes down to April, Briere is in no rush, he knows they're not competing for three years, so nothing has to be pushed. The kids will make his decisions, if they take starting jobs, he'll move out a veteran or two early and the rest at the TDL, if they look shaky, send them back to LHV.

To me the most interesting development is Brink on the 1st line and PP1, because he's probably the most talented prospect offensively other than Michkov. If he can be "mini-Giroux" that would be a big step for a rebuild. Lot of upside, lot of downside (can he skate well enough?).

Foerster on the other hand I think has a higher floor but lower ceiling.

Zamula/Andrae are similar, Zamula has lower ceiling/higher floor, Andrae may not be ready but he's not far away, I think they'll give him a few games, see how he looks against real NHL competition, and then make a decision whether to start him or send him down.

 

[Tripod]

I'll take prospects who actually perform in the NHL than the WJC.

Vorobyev is a good example, good passer, but mediocre skater and despite his size, was allergic to contact, so you had a playmaking center who wasn't fast enough for a scoring role and refused to use his body in a checking role. Even in the KHL it took him three years to win a top 6 job.

Sushko simply flatlined in the AHL, D+1, D+2, 60 and 51 points in the OHL, 32 and 17 points in the AHL, 16 points in 63 KHL games. There was nothing there to develop.

Holmgren/Hextall didn't draft many with offensive skills after the first rd, Kase but injuries derailed him, he wasn't his brother. Kalynuk pretty much flatlined, cameo with Chicago, now in his 3rd AHl season. And so on. Ratcliffe could score goals in junior hockey, but couldn't translate that to the AHL (25 goals in 181 games, compare to say Desnoyers), much less the NHL.

No need to keep lying.

When EVERY prospect who touches the AHL suddenly flatlines, maybe look to the idiots in charge of developing guys in the AHL.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

What are they going to say?

Basically, it comes down to April, Briere is in no rush, he knows they're not competing for three years, so nothing has to be pushed. The kids will make his decisions, if they take starting jobs, he'll move out a veteran or two early and the rest at the TDL, if they look shaky, send them back to LHV.

To me the most interesting development is Brink on the 1st line and PP1, because he's probably the most talented prospect offensively other than Michkov. If he can be "mini-Giroux" that would be a big step for a rebuild. Lot of upside, lot of downside (can he skate well enough?).

Foerster on the other hand I think has a higher floor but lower ceiling.

Zamula/Andrae are similar, Zamula has lower ceiling/higher floor, Andrae may not be ready but he's not far away, I think they'll give him a few games, see how he looks against real NHL competition, and then make a decision whether to start him or send him down.

get back to us all when this happens. Nothing to indicate this as it is just your belief

Also, not directed at you only, who do peeps think are the top say 5 "developmental" teams in the NHL. Be curious to see the list provided.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I've been waiting for this mythical and annually promised Movement of Veterans for many years now. It's never happened.