2023-24 Roster Thread #5: Where the boos aren't limited to Halloween

[Curufinwe]

As jack would say, hindsight is 20/50

 

[blackjackmulligan]

What are those mistakes? Every time someone brings one up you argue against it.

what I am arguing against is the notion the flyers ruined nak, myers, and a whole host of others according to you.

 

[deadhead]

It's clear they just didn't draft a lot of skill people, especially after the 1st rd, under Holmgren and Hextall. Very few skaters or playmakers, lots of physical muckers.
2012: Ghost #78
2014: Lindblom #138 (more of a mucker than a skater skill guy)
2015: Kase #128, Marody #158 (but with skating issues)
2017: Lycksell #168, Kalynuk #196

So it's hard to imagine any organization developing most of those draft picks into more than 4th line types - Bunnaman is a good example, improved his skating but he could audition for Edward Scissorhands. Don't know how you fix that.

 

[dragonoffrost]

It's clear they just didn't draft a lot of skill people, especially after the 1st rd, under Holmgren and Hextall. Very few skaters or playmakers, lots of physical muckers.
2012: Ghost #78
2014: Lindblom #138 (more of a mucker than a skater skill guy)
2015: Kase #128, Marody #158 (but with skating issues)
2017: Lycksell #168, Kalynuk #196

So it's hard to imagine any organization developing most of those draft picks into more than 4th line types - Bunnaman is a good example, improved his skating but he could audition for Edward Scissorhands. Don't know how you fix that.

Lindblom was turned into a mucker by the development of this organization....

He was a scorer in Sweden

 

[deadhead]

Lindblom was turned into a mucker by the development of this organization....

He was a scorer in Sweden

Almost every player is a scorer at lower levels.

Lindblom's strength was his leverage along the boards, he was great at winning puck battles and getting the puck to more skilled linemates - which is an underrated skill. I think that's where the cancer really hurt him, he was never a great skater, but when he lost strength and stamina he became meh.

 

[dragonoffrost]

Almost every player is a scorer at lower levels.

Lindblom's strength was his leverage along the boards, he was great at winning puck battles and getting the puck to more skilled linemates - which is an underrated skill. I think that's where the cancer really hurt him, he was never a great skater, but when he lost strength and stamina he became meh.

There is a difference between everyone and

In the 2016–17 season with Brynäs IF, Lindblom finished fourth in scoring league-wide with 47 points in 52 games.[3] He was named Forward of the Year at the end of the season.[4]

 

[BernieParent]

Lindblom was turned into a mucker by the development of this organization....

He was a scorer in Sweden

Speaking of Sweden, read this scouting report about Robert Hägg and see how it aligns with the player we saw on the Flyers.

 

[deadhead]

I think Hagg was typical of a lot of prospects, his offense was good enough at lower levels, but at the NHL level, he simply didn't skate, pass or shoot well enough to be the primary play driver on a defensive pair, or even in the transition game. Which meant he had to improve defensively and learn how to use his body. Just never showed the IQ or willingness to make that transition.

We see the same with Risto, for some reason Buffalo saw him as an offensive defensemen and never stressed fundamentally sound defense with him. But while he has a good shot, he doesn't skate or puck handle well enough to be a primary puck carrier or playmaker. Shaw is trying to salvage him by teaching him defense, with his body, reach and mobility, he could be a top defensive defenseman who can contribute in a secondary role on offense. But as we've seen with Provorov, a lot of players chafe under that role and can be hard to coach. So far Risto seems to have been responsive, the question is how much can he pick up at this point in his career.

 

[dragonoffrost]

Speaking of Sweden, read this scouting report about Robert Hägg and see how it aligns with the player we saw on the Flyers.

LOL a guy who was aloof in the defensive zone all of a sudden is getting out of position because he's chasing hits.....

Why could that be?

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I think Hagg was typical of a lot of prospects, his offense was good enough at lower levels, but at the NHL level, he simply didn't skate, pass or shoot well enough to be the primary play driver on a defensive pair, or even in the transition game. Which meant he had to improve defensively and learn how to use his body. Just never showed the IQ or willingness to make that transition.

We see the same with Risto, for some reason Buffalo saw him as an offensive defensemen and never stressed fundamentally sound defense with him. But while he has a good shot, he doesn't skate or puck handle well enough to be a primary puck carrier or playmaker. Shaw is trying to salvage him by teaching him defense, with his body, reach and mobility, he could be a top defensive defenseman who can contribute in a secondary role on offense. But as we've seen with Provorov, a lot of players chafe under that role and can be hard to coach. So far Risto seems to have been responsive, the question is how much can he pick up at this point in his career.

no he couldn't

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

 

[Beef Invictus]

what I am arguing against is the notion the flyers ruined nak, myers, and a whole host of others according to you.

So then you think Flyers development is fine.

 

[BernieParent]

I think Hagg was typical of a lot of prospects, his offense was good enough at lower levels, but at the NHL level, he simply didn't skate, pass or shoot well enough to be the primary play driver on a defensive pair, or even in the transition game. Which meant he had to improve defensively and learn how to use his body. Just never showed the IQ or willingness to make that transition.

We see the same with Risto, for some reason Buffalo saw him as an offensive defensemen and never stressed fundamentally sound defense with him. But while he has a good shot, he doesn't skate or puck handle well enough to be a primary puck carrier or playmaker. Shaw is trying to salvage him by teaching him defense, with his body, reach and mobility, he could be a top defensive defenseman who can contribute in a secondary role on offense. But as we've seen with Provorov, a lot of players chafe under that role and can be hard to coach. So far Risto seems to have been responsive, the question is how much can he pick up at this point in his career.

Thanks, dead. Maybe he did but Hagg was a 2nd rounder (41st overall) with an aptitude for carrying the puck and being an alert and adept passer. I seem to realize these same hopes on this board when he was drafted. I'll ask those who followed the Phantoms from 2013-2018, but was there any sign of trying to develop his offensive game or (as I remember) did he get pigeon-holed into a safe defenseman whose go-to was ringing the puck off the glass? Hagg just appears to be the poster child of being typecast as a big rugged defensive-minded player despite showing offensive upside early in his development.

 

[freakydallas13]

Thanks, dead. Maybe he did but Hagg was a 2nd rounder (41st overall) with an aptitude for carrying the puck and being an alert and adept passer. I seem to realize these same hopes on this board when he was drafted. I'll ask those who followed the Phantoms from 2013-2018, but was there any sign of trying to develop his offensive game or (as I remember) did he get pigeon-holed into a safe defenseman whose go-to was ringing the puck off the glass? Hagg just appears to be the poster child of being typecast as a big rugged defensive-minded player despite showing offensive upside early in his development.

Hagg and Morin were both sent down this "development" path. Told to forget about offence, focus on defence.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

So then you think Flyers development is fine.

is that what you take out of that? one size fits all approach?

so then its all on development when a player does not become an nhl player. understood.

 

[deadhead]

So then you think Flyers development is fine.

The two are not mutually exclusive. They didn't draft skill, and they didn't do a good job of developing 4th line muckers. But I don't think that's what YOU mean by bad development.

Hagg and Morin were both sent down this "development" path. Told to forget about offence, focus on defence.

Did you watch them play? What offensive skill set did either player possess? Morin couldn't even skate with a puck without looking down,

 

[BernieParent]

The two are not mutually exclusive. They didn't draft skill, and they didn't do a good job of developing 4th line muckers. But I don't think that's what YOU mean by bad development.


Did you watch them play? What offensive skill set did either player possess? Morin couldn't even skate with a puck without looking down,

I agree that Morin definitely wasn't going to make the NHL on offensive skill alone, and I was no fan of taking him with the 11th pick. Re: Hagg, I'll refer you to my original post and link that started this conversation. He had offensive upside leading into the draft.

 

[freakydallas13]

The two are not mutually exclusive. They didn't draft skill, and they didn't do a good job of developing 4th line muckers. But I don't think that's what YOU mean by bad development.


Did you watch them play? What offensive skill set did either player possess? Morin couldn't even skate with a puck without looking down,

Did you watch them play before they got to the AHL? Morin wasn't an offensive dynamo, but he put up 32 points in 38 games his last season in the Q. And 11 points in 19 playoff games. He wasn't some stone handed giant until the Flyers got their greasy hands on him and told him offense was a waste of time.

And before you come in here and strawman me, no I'm not saying he would have been a ppg player if not for the Flyers' "development". Merely that he had some offensive instincts and skills, but the Flyers wanted that skill turned down to zero.

This isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

 

[deadhead]

Did you watch them play before they got to the AHL? Morin wasn't an offensive dynamo, but he put up 32 points in 38 games his last season in the Q. And 11 points in 19 playoff games. He wasn't some stone handed giant until the Flyers got their greasy hands on him and told him offense was a waste of time.

And before you come in here and strawman me, no I'm not saying he would have been a ppg player if not for the Flyers' "development". Merely that he had some offensive instincts and skills, but the Flyers wanted that skill turned down to zero.

This isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

That's an opinion, not a fact. Where did they say they wanted Morin not to do anything on offense?

That's far different than looking at a guy who struggles to puck handle and telling him his future is going to be using his big body and reach on defense, not skating the puck out of the D-zone and through the neutral zone like Sanheim.

It is a far different matter to score in the CHL v the NHL, Samson was a PPG player in the CHL, do you expect him to be an offensive defenseman in the NHL?

 

[Magua]

Where I think the Flyers failed all their young defenders the most was on transition play at the pro level. For years going back to vaunted player developer, Scott “Beanpot” Gordon, their idea of transition hockey was: “Good luck!” Vigneault was a disaster in that regard too. We even saw players like Provorov, who had identifiable positives like transition play and scoring, crumble at what they do well. Red flags everywhere.

Now, transporting wizards like Sanheim managed in these conditions. But I saw way too many defenders unable to grasp how to solve complex forechecking and NZ schemes. They developed bad habits like lob outs galore, panic icings, etc. Because the scheme was nonexistent. Support passing has never been a priority in this organization.

Do I think Hagg or Morin may have just not passed the skill bar in retrospect? It’s possible. But there is no better example at the Flyers suppressing offensive skill-sets than the best PP defenseman in the CHL not getting AHL/NHL PP time as a priority. We don’t have to look at fringe cases.

 

[deadhead]

It's hard to say.

They tried giving Provorov more offensive responsibilities, but I think that just exposed his limitations. He's a decent offensive defenseman, but doesn't seem to have great vision.

Sanheim is great in transition, but not finishing in the O-zone. On the PP, Ghost, Yandle and now York seem better suited as PP QBs. Andrae may also turn out to be as good or better. TDA was better in NY and Carolina, though he struggled here.

I still contend the primary issue was drafting, and the philosophy of Holmgren/Hextall. Morin was intriguing b/c of his size, but he wasn't going to be the next Pronger with his inability to handle a puck in traffic. Drafted way too high, probably should have been last 1st or 2nd rd. Hagg and Ginning in the 2nd or Southeran in the 5th. It isn't that the latter will turn out better, but he's picked where you don't care.

If you overdraft, the expectations may lead you to put more blame on development than is deserved. No one is going to blame development if Samson, Zanetti or McDonald fail to become NHL players.

 

[freakydallas13]

That's an opinion, not a fact. Where did they say they wanted Morin not to do anything on offense?

That's far different than looking at a guy who struggles to puck handle and telling him his future is going to be using his big body and reach on defense, not skating the puck out of the D-zone and through the neutral zone like Sanheim.

It is a far different matter to score in the CHL v the NHL, Samson was a PPG player in the CHL, do you expect him to be an offensive defenseman in the NHL?

This is from Dec. 2014.

I can't find the Flyers article about them telling him to stop playing offence, but I know it exists some time around 2015.

Also, did you even read my post? I already preemptively cut of the strawman argument about "scoring a bunch in junior means they will score a bunch in the NHL too". Go back and read it.

 

[deadhead]

I don't draft "decent skill" or "skates well for a big man" (which means in a straight line) in the first round unless I'm convinced he can be an elite defensive defenseman.

Compare to say Bonk, at #22, he's going to have good size (probably something like 6'2 210 when he grows up), he's mobile, high IQ, all around skill set but will be a complementary D-man at the NHL level to a more skilled partner. That's why he's a late first round pick.

Flyers fell in love with his size and failed to value Morin properly as a draft pick.

 

[freakydallas13]

After much searching, I didn't find the original article. Just Tony Androckitis referencing it. This is one month into Morin's AHL career:

I know for certain a more in depth piece on this conversation with the AHL coaches telling Morin to stop thinking about offence entirely, but it's almost impossible to find.

I don't draft "decent skill" or "skates well for a big man" (which means in a straight line) in the first round unless I'm convinced he can be an elite defensive defenseman.

Compare to say Bonk, at #22, he's going to have good size (probably something like 6'2 210 when he grows up), he's mobile, high IQ, all around skill set but will be a complementary D-man at the NHL level to a more skilled partner. That's why he's a late first round pick.

Flyers fell in love with his size and failed to value Morin properly as a draft pick.

Who cares what you do, I'm talking about what this team does.

 

[Striiker]

Isn't that cute? Morin wanted to play like Ghost, but every coach wanted Ghost to play like Morin.