2023-24 Roster Thread 3: We Three Flyers

[Tripod]

Except Tortorella isn't just giving that "feedback" to the player, he's being a coward and bringing it out into the media as well. That's a sad and pathetic thing to do. I'm all for coaches giving giving honest feedback to players, but keep it between you two

Even worse, we have multiple guys sc4atched/benched and never told why. Then of course scratched ONLY in their hometown game with lots of friends and family in attendance.

That's just a jackass being a jackass on a power trip.

 

[renberg]

Max Talbot-On any team some guys love the coach (the ones that are getting the PT that they think that they should.); some guys hate him (the guys that are not getting the PT that they think that they deserve.) and rest don't care. For every Hayes, TDA or Provorov there's a Tippett, Cates or a Laughton. Unfortunately for those that want to stir the turds, they put the focus on the Hayeses et al.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Stoutland also aggressively weeds out players who can't handle his pressure, they've already cut Reid. He doesn't accept excuses for nonperformance.
The players who remain love him, but partially b/c they're the ones who appreciate that his "tough love" made them better. Self-selection.

Trots could use a Dale Carnegie course, but he's not the monster as advertised:

6/20/21, after he was fired from Carolina and the expectation was he'd never coach again. So players could be honest.

Tortorella: In the Words of His Players - The Hockey Writers Latest News, Analysis & More

Former Blue Jackets coach John Tortorella, vilified by the media, beloved by his players.

thehockeywriters.com

Go google "Tortorella and former players" - most of his former players (the ones that survive his gauntlet) speak highly of him. Similar to Stoutland, they felt he cared about them as people, and appreciate being pushed to get better.

One thing that impressed me is he had a reputation for treating the "little people" in the organization with respect, to me a better standard of decency than kow towing to a star's ego.

The 2019 NHL Poll: Best player? Most overrated? Players weigh in on the best (and worst) in the game

Though oddly enough he somehow scrounged together 6% of respondents (old heads who hate the new game, probably) that said they'd want to play for Torts.

So anyway, yeah Torts was least popular in 2019 and I can't imagine it's changed much since.

 

[Math the wild rose]

Good job having in our team the most hated coach in the league right now.

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

The 2019 NHL Poll: Best player? Most overrated? Players weigh in on the best (and worst) in the game

Though oddly enough he somehow scrounged together 6% of respondents (old heads who hate the new game, probably) that said they'd want to play for Torts.

So anyway, yeah Torts was least popular in 2019 and I can't imagine it's changed much since.

Why did they let Dubinsky vote so many times? Doesn't seem fair.

 

[Curufinwe]

Is Rizzo the replacement for Frost if his hold out continues into the regular season?

 

[Beef Invictus]

The 2019 NHL Poll: Best player? Most overrated? Players weigh in on the best (and worst) in the game

Though oddly enough he somehow scrounged together 6% of respondents (old heads who hate the new game, probably) that said they'd want to play for Torts.

So anyway, yeah Torts was least popular in 2019 and I can't imagine it's changed much since.

It's tempting to make this my avatar after how many times I was told players adore being treated like shit.

 

[ponder719]

It's tempting to make this my avatar after how many times I was told players adore being treated like shit.

This is exactly the level of petty I aspire to in my life.

 

[renberg]

Is Rizzo the replacement for Frost if his hold out continues into the regular season?

I don’t know if Frost is holding out. However COC had an article in The Athletic on Cates. The question in it is whether Cates is a 2C or a 3C? Just wonder if someone is hinting to Frost that if he doesn’t sign, 2C will go to Cates. That would be a joke since Frost has more offensive skills

 

[Beef Invictus]

Tortorella is giving 2C to Cates either way.

 

[Magua]

Tortorella is giving 2C to Cates either way.

This is what a contender looks like.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Tortorella is giving 2C to Cates either way.

100% Torts is trying to chase Frost out the door.

 

[Curufinwe]

Farabee-Cates-Konecny
Tippett-Laughton-Atkinson
Poehling-Frost-Hathaway
Deslauriers-Couturier-Allison

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

The 2019 NHL Poll: Best player? Most overrated? Players weigh in on the best (and worst) in the game

Though oddly enough he somehow scrounged together 6% of respondents (old heads who hate the new game, probably) that said they'd want to play for Torts.

So anyway, yeah Torts was least popular in 2019 and I can't imagine it's changed much since.

2019 is so long ago. That was before Torts became a pacifist and went out on tour with Dead & Company. He's definitely way more popular now. I demand a recount!

Also, how the hell have we only had 2 of the 5 most disliked become coaches in Philly?!? We're slacking! We need at least 4 ex Flyers coaches on that list.

 

[freakydallas13]

2019 is so long ago. That was before Torts became a pacifist and went out on tour with Dead & Company. He's definitely way more popular now. I demand a recount!

Also, how the hell have we only had 2 of the 5 most disliked become coaches in Philly?!? We're slacking! We need at least 4 ex Flyers coaches on that list.

Riddle me this, how long ago was Torts' cup win?

 

[chadateit]

Cates at 2C definitely helps the tank.

 

[deadhead]

I don’t know if Frost is holding out. However COC had an article in The Athletic on Cates. The question in it is whether Cates is a 2C or a 3C? Just wonder if someone is hinting to Frost that if he doesn’t sign, 2C will go to Cates. That would be a joke since Frost has more offensive skills

Frost actually played slightly more minutes at 5x5 than Cates after Dec 7, when Hayes was demoted.

Frost has more offensive skills, but right now Cates is the better player (unless you doubt advanced metrics), and may have more upside.

Frost had two partial NHL seasons before last season, and has always played center and in an offense first role. Had a strong finish last season, but how much more does he have? At this point he's not going to add much more strength or get faster - the primary area of improvement would be consistency and defense - the two areas where Torts rode him hard.

Cates played mostly LW in college in a very conservative system, moved to center as a rookie, and got the toughest defensive matchups. Despite that, once he had a couple months to get his feet wet, scored at a high 3C level the rest of the season. So you have to figure he has a chance to raise his game this season with more experience at center, especially improving faceoffs and vision on offense.

Ideally you'd build a "speed line" around Frost with Tippett and Atkinson, and a puck possession line around Cates, with Foerster at RW but who at LW???
They'd both be middle six lines, but with different roles and matched up against different opposing lines.
Farabee - Couts - TK would be your scoring line.

 

[VladDrag]

Frost actually played slightly more minutes at 5x5 than Cates after Dec 7, when Hayes was demoted.

Frost has more offensive skills, but right now Cates is the better player (unless you doubt advanced metrics), and may have more upside.

Frost had two partial NHL seasons before last season, and has always played center and in an offense first role. Had a strong finish last season, but how much more does he have? At this point he's not going to add much more strength or get faster - the primary area of improvement would be consistency and defense - the two areas where Torts rode him hard.

Cates played mostly LW in college in a very conservative system, moved to center as a rookie, and got the toughest defensive matchups. Despite that, once he had a couple months to get his feet wet, scored at a high 3C level the rest of the season. So you have to figure he has a chance to raise his game this season with more experience at center, especially improving faceoffs and vision on offense.

Ideally you'd build a "speed line" around Frost with Tippett and Atkinson, and a puck possession line around Cates, with Foerster at RW but who at LW???
They'd both be middle six lines, but with different roles and matched up against different opposing lines.
Farabee - Couts - TK would be your scoring line.

You trigger me so much with this nonsense.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

2C vs 3C is a non-issue. Just worry about linemates.

When it comes to Cates, my only comment has nothing to do with him as an individual. The side of an argument that bucks every broad trend we have is the one we should collectively be skeptical of until proven otherwise. It is exceedingly rare for players to simply develop meaningful NHL offensive skill after not showing it at any previous level. Regard it is as fan fiction and you’ll be right 99.999% of the time.

 

[deadhead]

2C vs 3C is a non-issue. Just worry about linemates.

When it comes to Cates, my only comment has nothing to do with him as an individual. The side of an argument that bucks every broad trend we have is the one we should collectively be skeptical of until proven otherwise. It is exceedingly rare for players to simply develop meaningful NHL offensive skill after not showing it at any previous level. Regard it is as fan fiction and you’ll be right 99.999% of the time.

However, Cates is unusual, it's rare that a college LW who is primarily a defense first player is moved to center (other than a bottom six role).

Cates showed substantial improvement after playing center for a couple months, the question is always the extent to which that improvement can be sustained. Age works against him (players usually physically mature by 24 and don't get bigger or faster), gaining experience at center is in his favor.

He's not going to be a top offensive producer at center, but with the right wings he could be solid - just look at Couts before and after G - G carried a lot of the playmaking load for Couts, who in turn CYA allowing his wings to be more aggressive on offense. Problem is the ideal forward for Cates is probably Brink, though Foerster is a pretty solid passer, but would that be a good fit in terms of puck possession play, and is either player comfortable at LW? And overall speed could be an issue with those three together, but high IQ can compensate to some extent.

In a rebuild, it's good for both Cates and Gauthier (at BC) to get experience at center, even if they're eventually destined for LW if the Flyers land a true playmaking center (Michkov will play there in the KHL). Provides depth, wings experienced at taking POs, the ability to shuffle lines chasing matchups, etc.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

However, Cates is unusual, it's rare that a college LW who is primarily a defense first player is moved to center (other than a bottom six role).

Cates showed substantial improvement after playing center for a couple months, the question is always the extent to which that improvement can be sustained. Age works against him (players usually physically mature by 24 and don't get bigger or faster), gaining experience at center is in his favor.

He's not going to be a top offensive producer at center, but with the right wings he could be solid - just look at Couts before and after G - G carried a lot of the playmaking load for Couts, who in turn CYA allowing his wings to be more aggressive on offense. Problem is the ideal forward for Cates is probably Brink, though Foerster is a pretty solid passer, but would that be a good fit in terms of puck possession play, and is either player comfortable at LW? And overall speed could be an issue with those three together, but high IQ can compensate to some extent.

In a rebuild, it's good for both Cates and Gauthier (at BC) to get experience at center, even if they're eventually destined for LW if the Flyers land a true playmaking center (Michkov will play there in the KHL). Provides depth, wings experienced at taking POs, the ability to shuffle lines chasing matchups, etc.

I would personally guess that most of the improvement offensively was just getting used to the speed and various other factors of the NHL game. That’s usually what it is. And there may be more to come. But it probably would be more of the same.

It’s one of the reasons I’m always screaming that players need real time to adjust. Not 8 games.

 

[deadhead]

I would personally guess that most of the improvement offensively was just getting used to the speed and various other factors of the NHL game. That’s usually what it is. And there may be more to come. But it probably would be more of the same.

It’s one of the reasons I’m always screaming that players need real time to adjust. Not 8 games.

He played 15 games the previous spring and had the summer to digest his lessons in terms of NHL speed.
I suspect the adjustment was more about different angles (the SHL issue) at center and different responsibilities (centers have far more than wings in Tort's system).
I think his biggest potential improvement will be seeing the ice better on offense.

 

[Curufinwe]

Is December 7th the most monumental day in Flyers history?

 

[ponder719]

Also, how the hell have we only had 2 of the 5 most disliked become coaches in Philly?!? We're slacking! We need at least 4 ex Flyers coaches on that list.

That's only active coaches as of 2019, and nobody's out here giving Carlyle or Boucher another HC opportunity. Guarantee you an all-time list would include at least one more Flyers HC, probably multiples.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Is December 7th the most monumental day in Flyers history?

A day that will live in infamy.