2023-24 Roster Thread 3: We Three Flyers

[Curufinwe]

Ersspm 12, Zamulia 14. Desonyers 4

When the demands of typing a thousand words of fan fiction on a Sunday morning are too much for old fingers.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Laughton should have been moved the moment any team offered a 1st and 2nd for him, or whatever the rumoured package was. If he has a bad season and his value tanks, Briere has no one to blame but himself for missing out on a great return for a 3rd line player.

Seeler was another one that should have been moved last season when he had value for how he was playing. Imagine holding onto a 30 years old journeyman for no reason whatsoever. What if he shits the bed this season and loses his value?

You’re ignoring that the team that allegedly offered that for Laughton was the same team that Danny tried to trade Sanheim/Hayes to. For the same late first round pick. Probably including a salary dump similar to Krug (that’s just speculation on my part, but it makes sense that this is why the offer was so strong and it also fits with what we did in the Provy trade and tried to do in the Sanheim/Hayes deal).

Danny opted to pursue the Sanheim/Hayes to the Blues trade rather than the Laughton to the Blues trade, which makes a lot of sense, since it would’ve been advantageous to move Sanheim before his NMC kicks in (and obviously we had to move Hayes). It’s a shame Krug ruined it.

Seeler should’ve been moved at the deadline but Chuckles was still at the helm fumbling the bag. Not a big deal if he goes at this deadline though, or if we trade him to a contender that gets desperate when injuries hit early in the year.

If you look at teams that have successfully gone through a rebuild, you’ll notice the small moves (like Seeler) end up being quite trivial and not worth sweating. The important thing is to hit on your draft picks and get the big trades right. Provy was a nice start.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

They aren't even exploring this stuff. And the time to start trading everyone was now. They have too many needs to wait around. They need to get everything on the same timeline.

TK is going to be in his 30s by the time the team starts being good if everything goes well. The team won't move him because they think they're gonna be good to go in 3 years. Likewise, Tippett has all the makings of a middle six flash in the pan. Deal him while he has value.

The Flyers are behaving the way they are because they really think they can turn everything around in 3 years like they said. They are wrong. It isn't a rebuild. It's more of the same. You'll find out.

To me it seems like they’re behaving like every other team that’s gone through a rebuild. This isn’t a video game. Nobody ever gets every asset on the exact same timeline in a single offseason and to expect that is absurd. Every good team that wins a cup has a solid mix of 30 year old vets, young cheap talent, old slightly past prime players and everything in between. There’s absolutely no reason to suggest Tippett and Konecny can’t be part of a Flyers contender. If it takes us 5 years, Konecny will be 31. By no means is that old in the modern NHL. You could expect AT LEAST 3-4 years of good production from him. Tippett is even younger.

They aren’t even exploring it? How the hell do you know? Are you in the room? From publicly available info, they’re absolutely exploring every option… I’m not sure how much clearer Danny could’ve been when he stated point blank that they’re listening on every single player/asset other than Cutter (and now presumably Matvei).

The time to trade everyone is when you get the best return. If you settle for a 2nd round pick that turns into a bust when you could’ve waited to trade someone at a more advantageous time and get a 1st, you’d be looking pretty foolish. A 2023 drafted bust is still a bust.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

To me it seems like they’re behaving like every other team that’s gone through a rebuild. This isn’t a video game. Nobody ever gets every asset on the exact same timeline in a single offseason and to expect that is absurd. Every good team that wins a cup has a solid mix of 30 year old vets, young cheap talent, old slightly past prime players and everything in between. There’s absolutely no reason to suggest Tippett and Konecny can’t be part of a Flyers contender. If it takes us 5 years, Konecny will be 31. By no means is that old in the modern NHL. You could expect AT LEAST 3-4 years of good production from him. Tippett is even younger.

They aren’t even exploring it? How the hell do you know? Are you in the room? From publicly available info, they’re absolutely exploring every option… I’m not sure how much clearer Danny could’ve been when he stated point blank that they’re listening on every single player/asset other than Cutter (and now presumably Matvei).

The time to trade everyone is when you get the best return. If you settle for a 2nd round pick that turns into a bust when you could’ve waited to trade someone at a more advantageous time and get a 1st, you’d be looking pretty foolish. A 2023 drafted bust is still a bust.

so you have no problem giving TK an ext next summer for 8 year at say 8 million per? This is another clode, jake, couturier situation.

What if your ask is high and you won't budge? Is that good/smart business? Do you really think they are getting crap offers for TK? Or is it more likely they dont want to trade him?

 

[Beef Invictus]

To me it seems like they’re behaving like every other team that’s gone through a rebuild. This isn’t a video game. Nobody ever gets every asset on the exact same timeline in a single offseason and to expect that is absurd. Every good team that wins a cup has a solid mix of 30 year old vets, young cheap talent, old slightly past prime players and everything in between. There’s absolutely no reason to suggest Tippett and Konecny can’t be part of a Flyers contender. If it takes us 5 years, Konecny will be 31. By no means is that old in the modern NHL. You could expect AT LEAST 3-4 years of good production from him. Tippett is even younger.

They aren’t even exploring it? How the hell do you know? Are you in the room? From publicly available info, they’re absolutely exploring every option… I’m not sure how much clearer Danny could’ve been when he stated point blank that they’re listening on every single player/asset other than Cutter (and now presumably Matvei).

The time to trade everyone is when you get the best return. If you settle for a 2nd round pick that turns into a bust when you could’ve waited to trade someone at a more advantageous time and get a 1st, you’d be looking pretty foolish. A 2023 drafted bust is still a bust.

What team going through a rebuild has clung to middle of the lineup players other teams will overpay for?

 

[Tarpongg]

To me it seems like they’re behaving like every other team that’s gone through a rebuild. This isn’t a video game. Nobody ever gets every asset on the exact same timeline in a single offseason and to expect that is absurd. Every good team that wins a cup has a solid mix of 30 year old vets, young cheap talent, old slightly past prime players and everything in between. There’s absolutely no reason to suggest Tippett and Konecny can’t be part of a Flyers contender. If it takes us 5 years, Konecny will be 31. By no means is that old in the modern NHL. You could expect AT LEAST 3-4 years of good production from him. Tippett is even younger.

They aren’t even exploring it? How the hell do you know? Are you in the room? From publicly available info, they’re absolutely exploring every option… I’m not sure how much clearer Danny could’ve been when he stated point blank that they’re listening on every single player/asset other than Cutter (and now presumably Matvei).

The time to trade everyone is when you get the best return. If you settle for a 2nd round pick that turns into a bust when you could’ve waited to trade someone at a more advantageous time and get a 1st, you’d be looking pretty foolish. A 2023 drafted bust is still a bust.

We know they’ve openly stated they’re rebuilding, but what, outside of the Provorov trade, have the Flyers done to show they are rebuilding?

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

so you have no problem giving TK an ext next summer for 8 year at say 8 million per? This is another clode, jake, couturier situation.

What if your ask is high and you won't budge? Is that good/smart business? Do you really think they are getting crap offers for TK? Or is it more likely they dont want to trade him?

Given what Debrincat went for (extremely underwhelming return), I think it’s absolutely possible that the offers for TK are underwhelming. I feel like it’s a 60/40 or 50/50 split on people who think what TK did last year isn’t sustainable. So if you’re in that camp, are you gonna make a huge offer for TK? And even if you are completely sold on him keeping it up, let’s say you’re a fringe contender… are you gonna offer top dollar now or would you rather wait and see where you’re at come trade deadline time?

It’s not exactly like first round picks were flying this offseason… exactly zero were traded at the draft lol.

As far as what extension I would give to TK, a lot depends on what happens this year. But yeah, there’s absolutely a world where I’d feel comfortable giving him a deal similar to DeBrincat. 4/32 or somewhere thereabouts. Not sure I’d be looking to go 8 years, but…

 

[Redpath]

We know they’ve openly stated they’re rebuilding, but what, outside of the Provorov trade, have the Flyers done to show they are rebuilding?

Why exclude the biggest example of them rebuilding?

Not trading draft picks for players (like a DeBrincat trade), not signing big free agents (like Ryan O'Reilly), trading away big name veterans that could have been feasibly kept around to "compete," and not using the 7th overall for a shorter-term fix are all indicative of longer-term, compete later, rebuild thinking.

All these things that they haven't done are what would have killed the the Flyers in years past.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

We know they’ve openly stated they’re rebuilding, but what, outside of the Provorov trade, have the Flyers done to show they are rebuilding?

-Took back deadweight contracts for picks (Walker, Petersen).
-Handed out exactly zero long term deals (2 years was the most we doled out this offseason).
-Drafted a player many expect won’t touch NA Ice for 3 years at 7 overall.

I mean if you don’t see a clear difference between how this team was run under Chuckles versus what we’re doing this offseason, IDK what to tell you.

The real test will be the trade deadline.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Given what Debrincat went for (extremely underwhelming return), I think it’s absolutely possible that the offers for TK are underwhelming. I feel like it’s a 60/40 or 50/50 split on people who think what TK did last year isn’t sustainable. So if you’re in that camp, are you gonna make a huge offer for TK? And even if you are completely sold on him keeping it up, let’s say you’re a fringe contender… are you gonna offer top dollar now or would you rather wait and see where you’re at come trade deadline time?

It’s not exactly like first round picks were flying this offseason… exactly zero were traded at the draft lol.

As far as what extension I would give to TK, a lot depends on what happens this year. But yeah, there’s absolutely a world where I’d feel comfortable giving him a deal similar to DeBrincat. 4/32 or somewhere thereabouts. Not sure I’d be looking to go 8 years, but…

Debrincat is /was a diff situation than TK. Not sure they are all that comparable. Who do you think is a better player or would rather have, Debrincat or TK?

A fringe contender would then have TK to start the year so maybe they become more than a fringe contender. So makes sense to trade for him now. Then you assess what you need at the deadline.

TK will not want a 4 year deal when he is 28 years old. Only way that plays out is he he gets hurt and doesn't play much the next 2 years. This is his last big contract. Knowing how the flyers operate they will overpay to keep him.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

-Took back deadweight contracts for picks (Walker, Petersen).
-Handed out exactly zero long term deals (2 years was the most we doled out this offseason).
-Drafted a player many expect won’t touch NA Ice for 3 years at 7 overall.

I mean if you don’t see a clear difference between how this team was run under Chuckles versus what we’re doing this offseason, IDK what to tell you.

The real test will be the trade deadline.

don't think walker is dead weight though get you point. They traded a guy who wanted out. That is the biggest factor in play here

Had no money for big name free agents. Plus don't see many players knocking down the door to come play for the flyers these days.

Kudo to the co-GM though to me it was a no brainer pick. Granted I doubt Chuck takes him.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

What team going through a rebuild has clung to middle of the lineup players other teams will overpay for?

I’m not sure how many times we need to rehash this lol. We were engaged with the Blues on two different trade ideas but they were only ever going to do one of the two. We opted to pursue the framework that got the malcontent Hayes off of our roster and got the mediocre defenseman Chuck gave 7 years and a full NMC to off the roster as well (before his NMC kicked in). We were going to get the same first round pick+ return. Unfortunately, circumstances out of DB’s control blew that up and news of the proposed trade leaked from the Blues side. Once that happened, you can’t just put the cat back in the bag. Hayes had to be dealt at that point.

That was the only rumor involving Laughton. And it wasn’t even a fully developed rumor. The exact pick wasn’t specified. What players / money we would’ve had to take back wasn’t specified. Given that we had (and still have) cap space to burn, it wouldn’t shock me at all if the rumored pick return was contingent on us taking a big salary (like Krug) back.

If Laughton is still on this team post deadline, there’s an issue and maybe it’s same old same old. But right now, it just looks like a GM knowing he’s in no rush and knowing when he’ll have the most suitors to drive the price up.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

don't think walker is dead weight though get you point. They traded a guy who wanted out. That is the biggest factor in play here

Had no money for big name free agents. Plus don't see many players knocking down the door to come play for the flyers these days.

Kudo to the co-GM though to me it was a no brainer pick. Granted I doubt Chuck takes him.

If you factor in the money we had from LTIR, we absolutely had the funds to get stupid in free agency if winning now was the goal. I have no doubt whatsoever that if Chuck was still leading us, he would've found a way... probably trading draft picks in the process so we could "get a leg up" on signing a pending UFA that nobody else really wanted anyway.

Not to mention that if our goal was "aggressively retooling", we would've had even more money by not taking back Petersen and Walker and just accepting a lesser return for Provy.

Walker isn't dead weight, but yeah, the point was that we took back a sizeable contract there to help improve the pick return. Petersen is pure dead weight / a reclamation project (and that's putting it nicely lol).

Michkov was a no brainer pick, but 2 teams ahead of us proved brainless. Chuck 1000% wouldn't have gone for Matvei.

 

[Striiker]

Someone @ me when this thread is readable again

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Debrincat is /was a diff situation than TK. Not sure they are all that comparable. Who do you think is a better player or would rather have, Debrincat or TK?

A fringe contender would then have TK to start the year so maybe they become more than a fringe contender. So makes sense to trade for him now. Then you assess what you need at the deadline.

TK will not want a 4 year deal when he is 28 years old. Only way that plays out is he he gets hurt and doesn't play much the next 2 years. This is his last big contract. Knowing how the flyers operate they will overpay to keep him.

DeBrincat is definitely a different situation, I was just giving that as a rough example. He obviously had an RFA year left and is a little younger, but he's also a better player.

Most fringe contenders don't seem to think like that. If you look at offseason trades over the years, teams looking to elevate themselves will go after the really big perennial all stars of the world. When it's someone like TK, who is the next tier or 2 tiers down from that, they typically don't make plays for them. This is just looking at trends, it's not to say there's no chance that a fringe contender might be interested in TK, it's just to say that looking back historically, the market for a player like TK is strongest at the deadline when more teams have a better idea of where they are at.

I happen to personally agree with your logic... if my team is trying to win, I'd want to get the full year out of a player to improve my chances the most. But NHL GMs (other than Chuck of course) are usually more gun shy. They try to avoid at all costs the egg-on-the-face scenario of trading their first round pick, missing the playoffs and seeing that outgoing pick end up in the lottery.

You make a good point in this likely being TK's last/only big contract. I still just don't think it's likely a good GM (and I think DB will prove to be one) gives him 8/64 through his age 35 season unless he takes a big step forward. Seems like 6 years might be the right amount. And I'd do 6/48 depending on how this season looks.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Someone @ me when this thread is readable again

@Striiker Was it ever readable? From the start there was little discussion of substance about the roster. Just you and others complaining that this rebuild hasn't been rebuildy enough for you yet and complaining that Briere and Jonesy don't deserve a shot because they were once Flyers.

I guess you enjoy an echo chamber of bellyaching more though.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

DeBrincat is definitely a different situation, I was just giving that as a rough example. He obviously had an RFA year left and is a little younger, but he's also a better player.

Most fringe contenders don't seem to think like that. If you look at offseason trades over the years, teams looking to elevate themselves will go after the really big perennial all stars of the world. When it's someone like TK, who is the next tier or 2 tiers down from that, they typically don't make plays for them. This is just looking at trends, it's not to say there's no chance that a fringe contender might be interested in TK, it's just to say that looking back historically, the market for a player like TK is strongest at the deadline when more teams have a better idea of where they are at.

I happen to personally agree with your logic... if my team is trying to win, I'd want to get the full year out of a player to improve my chances the most. But NHL GMs (other than Chuck of course) are usually more gun shy. They try to avoid at all costs the egg-on-the-face scenario of trading their first round pick, missing the playoffs and seeing that outgoing pick end up in the lottery.

You make a good point in this likely being TK's last/only big contract. I still just don't think it's likely a good GM (and I think DB will prove to be one) gives him 8/64 through his age 35 season unless he takes a big step forward. Seems like 6 years might be the right amount. And I'd do 6/48 depending on how this season looks.

so if you think he is the better player than TK why should TK get a better package than that he got?

Time will tell with DB. Not impressed so far though he seems to be letting the coach dictates what is done.Seems he is easily influenced by the coach.

Someone @ me when this thread is readable again

will do. How was your weekend?

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

so if you think he is the better player than TK why should TK get a better package than that he got?

Time will tell with DB. Not impressed so far though he seems to be letting the coach dictates what is done.Seems he is easily influenced by the coach.

I mean the dynamics of the DeBrincat situation were different. It was "either trade me where I want, or I'm not signing an extension" and no team was giving up a 1st+ this offseason without said extension. So it essentially came down to "you're trading me to Detroit or you're getting nothing for me". DeBrincat very much held all the cards.

TK is under contact for 2 years and it's a much more manageable cap number. That cap number will make it easier for a variety of teams to take him at the deadline and make him even more desirable. TK also (to the best of my knowledge) isn't unhappy here or seeking a trade. We may also be willing to retain salary to make him even more desirable for the right return.

What did you want DB to do exactly? I don't think he has the unilateral authority to fire Torts, so he has to work with him. I'm not a Torts guy btw... He could be fired tomorrow and as long as the replacement wasn't Lappy, I'd be fine. Kevin Hayes was a massive Chuck mistake. TDA was perhaps an even bigger Chuck mistake. Neither one was going to play any meaningful role in our future. Could we have maybe gotten a 3rd or 4th for Hayes instead of the 6th we got if Hayes and Torts were on great terms? Sure. Even with the animosity we could've gotten something small (insignificant lotto ticket prospect) for TDA but decided keeping the retention slot open was more valuable. The confrontations with Torts already happened though. Nothing DB could do about them and the choices were either to cut bait now or risk things getting worse. And the "upside" just wasn't there to risk things getting worse and to have those two occupying roster spots. Weighing risk and reward like that is effective GMing, not being influenced by the coach.

Being too easily influenced by the coach (to me) would be if he elected to dump Frost for an underwhelming return, or drafted a Torts guy instead of Michkov or traded picks for a win now Torts style grinder.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I mean the dynamics of the DeBrincat situation were different. It was "either trade me where I want, or I'm not signing an extension" and no team was giving up a 1st+ this offseason without said extension. So it essentially came down to "you're trading me to Detroit or you're getting nothing for me". DeBrincat very much held all the cards.

TK is under contact for 2 years and it's a much more manageable cap number. That cap number will make it easier for a variety of teams to take him at the deadline and make him even more desirable. TK also (to the best of my knowledge) isn't unhappy here or seeking a trade. We may also be willing to retain salary to make him even more desirable for the right return.

What did you want DB to do exactly? I don't think he has the unilateral authority to fire Torts, so he has to work with him. I'm not a Torts guy btw... He could be fired tomorrow and as long as the replacement wasn't Lappy, I'd be fine. Kevin Hayes was a massive Chuck mistake. TDA was perhaps an even bigger Chuck mistake. Neither one was going to play any meaningful role in our future. Could we have maybe gotten a 3rd or 4th for Hayes instead of the 6th we got if Hayes and Torts were on great terms? Sure. Even with the animosity we could've gotten something small (insignificant lotto ticket prospect) for TDA but decided keeping the retention slot open was more valuable. The confrontations with Torts already happened though. Nothing DB could do about them and the choices were either to cut bait now or risk things getting worse. And the "upside" just wasn't there to risk things getting worse and to have those two occupying roster spots. Weighing risk and reward like that is effective GMing, not being influenced by the coach.

Being too easily influenced by the coach (to me) would be if he elected to dump Frost for an underwhelming return, or drafted a Torts guy instead of Michkov or traded picks for a win now Torts style grinder.

they should 100%

we have gone back and forth on what i think he should have done.

all the f/a signings reak of JT. who was traded and who was almost traded all JT. Coaches have next to nothing to do with drafts. so that's not relevant imo.enough evidence to show he is doing a lot of what the coach wants

also DB does not get a pass on the Tony D trade, he was part of that process. also had a hand in nic d

 

[Flyerfan4life]

We know they’ve openly stated they’re rebuilding, but what, outside of the Provorov trade, have the Flyers done to show they are rebuilding?

psssst.... they havent, cuz they arent..

 

[Beef Invictus]

Why exclude the biggest example of them rebuilding?

Not trading draft picks for players (like a DeBrincat trade), not signing big free agents (like Ryan O'Reilly), trading away big name veterans that could have been feasibly kept around to "compete," and not using the 7th overall for a shorter-term fix are all indicative of longer-term, compete later, rebuild thinking.

All these things that they haven't done are what would have killed the the Flyers in years past.

Oh, so like Hextall. That wasnt a rebuild either.

Not trading picks is the bare minimum, if that. Their refusal to get more picks because they think guys like Laughton will be vital in a couple years on their delusional timeline shows their idea of a rebuild is the same as ever.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I’m not sure how many times we need to rehash this lol. We were engaged with the Blues on two different trade ideas but they were only ever going to do one of the two. We opted to pursue the framework that got the malcontent Hayes off of our roster and got the mediocre defenseman Chuck gave 7 years and a full NMC to off the roster as well (before his NMC kicked in). We were going to get the same first round pick+ return. Unfortunately, circumstances out of DB’s control blew that up and news of the proposed trade leaked from the Blues side. Once that happened, you can’t just put the cat back in the bag. Hayes had to be dealt at that point.

That was the only rumor involving Laughton. And it wasn’t even a fully developed rumor. The exact pick wasn’t specified. What players / money we would’ve had to take back wasn’t specified. Given that we had (and still have) cap space to burn, it wouldn’t shock me at all if the rumored pick return was contingent on us taking a big salary (like Krug) back.

If Laughton is still on this team post deadline, there’s an issue and maybe it’s same old same old. But right now, it just looks like a GM knowing he’s in no rush and knowing when he’ll have the most suitors to drive the price up.

We don't need to rehash this. Five years from now I'll be right.

This team hasn't just proven my doubts right constantly, they routinely show I've been too optimistic about them.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

As cheap as dumba was he'd have been a great pick up for us to sell off at the deadline

 

[Redpath]

Oh, so like Hextall. That wasnt a rebuild either.

Not trading picks is the bare minimum, if that. Their refusal to get more picks because they think guys like Laughton will be vital in a couple years on their delusional timeline shows their idea of a rebuild is the same as ever.

Hextall's "rebuild" failed because his drafting was overrated and because he refused to start competing, not because he didn't liquidate all assets in year one.

They got more picks this summer. It doesn't matter if Provorov had a foot out the door. Instead of flipping him for another roster piece, Briere got a strong futures return for him.

You are overly eager to sell low on Laughton this summer because you're too impatient to wait for stronger value at the deadline, when players like Laughton are overvalued and when 1sts are moved more freely than we saw this summer. (Yes, I know, the one unconfirmed Blues 1st+2nd rumor! Congrats, you swallowed Jonesy's propaganda leaks)

 

[Beef Invictus]

Hextall's "rebuild" failed because his drafting was overrated and because he refused to start competing, not because he didn't liquidate all assets in year one.

They got more picks this summer. It doesn't matter if Provorov had a foot out the door. Instead of flipping him for another roster piece, Briere got a strong futures return for him.

You are overly eager to sell low on Laughton this summer because you're too impatient to wait for stronger value at the deadline, when players like Laughton are overvalued and when 1sts are moved more freely than we saw this summer. (Yes, I know, the one unconfirmed Blues 1st+2nd rumor! Congrats, you swallowed Jonesy's propaganda leaks)

The same scouts and development theories that failed Hextall are still in place now. Which is why I've long said any real rebuild begins with purging the whole office. They haven't. It's the same people doing all the same stuff. It's the same.