2023-24 Roster Thread 3: We Three Flyers

[deadhead]

What evidence is there that Marc Staals presence is going to in anyway help the young dmen hes preventing from playing?


The best way to bring along young talent is to put them in positions to succeed at the NHL level and build their confidence. You let the player excell at what their strengths are then use that confidence to develop the rest of their game over time.

The Flyers? They do the opposite. Their is an deeply rooted organizational philosophy that confidence and success at a young age is bad bc in order to be successful you have to have paid your dues and gone to hell and back doing it. Tgey love the Seelers and Mannings of the world bc they "paid their dues" This is why they routinely dick young talented players around by keeping them in the AHL too long...and when they get called up, they see limited time in a role they could succeed in before getting demoted, benched, scratched, and sent down. Why? Because theyre told to focus on their weak areas first. So a goal scorer spends a few games in the top 6, focuses on D bc thats what he was told to do, then gets demoted bc he wasnt scoring. They also love to publicly criticize these players...either by directly saying it or getting the media to push naratives.

Ghost is a great example. He was called up out of necessity because of an injury to Streit. Hextall routinely made comments about how he hated calling him up and he wasnt ready. Ghost was forced into a role as an offensive Dman and top PP guy bc they had literally no one else. And you know what? He THRIVED and went on to be a calder candidate. Why? Bc he was allowed to play to his strength and gain confidence.

Ghost also struggled defensively and never really developed as a two way defenseman like Makar.
The knee injury cost him a year in the AHL to improve his fundamentals.
Injuries sapped his offense to the point that a good team only saw him as a 3rd pair, PP specialist, like Gustaffson or TDA.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Had a beer with everyone’s favourite ex Flyer Thursday.

Voracek ?

if so... we want deets

 

[Beef Invictus]

There's no evidence that this specific signing will help because the season hasn't started yet. There's tons of evidence of rebuilding teams signing the Marc Staals of the world to fill their roster and provide leadership. If you provide me with a team that went through a rebuild that you consider successful, I'll show you an example of them signing a Staal type player during said rebuild.


Agreed. And if you don't feel a prospect is ready, throwing them to the wolves of the NHL to get dragged night in night out is not a way to "build their confidence". Sometimes, the way you build confidence is with big minutes in the AHL, surrounded by similar young talent, winning games, playing a role similar to what you envision their ideal NHL role to be. Then when they show you they've matured and they're ready, you give them their shot.

Again, I'd love to see just one example of a player we set back because he didn't "pay his dues". Where are these players we've mishandled that thrive as soon as they get out of our terrible organization?

What young, talented players have we "dicked"? Morgan Frost? So one player? And we consider him to be "dicked" because we played him 15 or so games in the AHL directly after he sustained a season-ending shoulder injury the year prior after only 2 games? Or because we then sent him down for another 5 games when he didn't produce?

This narrative is laughable tbh.

I've been told multiple times by multiple people on this board that bringing a player like Frost up to play 3rd/4th line mins isn't a bad thing and that plenty of great players thrive and "breakout" doing that. But then those same people turn around and say that to expect Frost to thrive in a role like that is ridiculous and that we're "mishandling him" by expecting him to play in such a role in the infancy of his NHL career. It's damned if you do and damned if you don't!


Not sure what Ghost is a great example of. We didn't "dick" Ghost around. He tore his ACL, which essentially burned an entire year of his development. And most guys need some time to get back to speed after tearing their ACL. If not for that injury to Streit, he likely would've spent MAYBE 20 or so additional games in the AHL. He was a top prospect and everyone knew/expected him to be beating down the doors to the big club very quickly. If Streit hadn't been injured, Ghost wasn't going to be "ruined" spending a few additional games in the minors.

But I do agree the role Ghost stepped into was perfect for his skillset. And I do agree that you give players the best chance to thrive when you bring them up and put them in a role commensurate with their talent and surround them with similarly talented teammates. Which is exactly why I'm not stressing if certain prospects spend big mins playing a big role for the Phantoms rather than playing bottom 6 or bottom pairing mins/roles for the Flyers.

Impressive level of denial.

 

[Striiker]

Had a beer with everyone’s favourite ex Flyer Thursday.

Did you tell him that he’s an overrated dipshit and not the best Flyer of all time?

f*** Clarke

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Impressive level of denial.

Like holding the team to some ideal standard of what a rebuild should be and ignoring that no team in the history of the modern game has met your standards?

You hear them using the term "rebuild" for the first time in decades (ever?) and rather than focus on that, you focus on the fact that Jonesy, when pressured by a sports talk radio arbitrarily threw out a 3 year timeline to contend. And you have developed this fantasy where now everyone is managing stringently to that deadline and they're screwing everything up because we need to have traded everyone by the end of the summer to meet that 3 year deadline (that nobody is actually managing to)!

 

[landsbergfan]

Andrae is the guy who could push Staal onto the third pairing, and if he continues to play well in LHV, may do so by January.

Andrae could also leave if he doesn’t make the NHL team

 

[Magua]

The Flyers entire marketing strategy right now is pandering in language while doing the same old shit with their actions. The extent of this new era of orange is about making a previously taboo word — that’s not taboo in any other franchise — not taboo.

 

[Adam Warlock]

There's no evidence that this specific signing will help because the season hasn't started yet. There's tons of evidence of rebuilding teams signing the Marc Staals of the world to fill their roster and provide leadership. If you provide me with a team that went through a rebuild that you consider successful, I'll show you an example of them signing a Staal type player during said rebuild.


Agreed. And if you don't feel a prospect is ready, throwing them to the wolves of the NHL to get dragged night in night out is not a way to "build their confidence". Sometimes, the way you build confidence is with big minutes in the AHL, surrounded by similar young talent, winning games, playing a role similar to what you envision their ideal NHL role to be. Then when they show you they've matured and they're ready, you give them their shot.

Again, I'd love to see just one example of a player we set back because he didn't "pay his dues". Where are these players we've mishandled that thrive as soon as they get out of our terrible organization?

What young, talented players have we "dicked"? Morgan Frost? So one player? And we consider him to be "dicked" because we played him 15 or so games in the AHL directly after he sustained a season-ending shoulder injury the year prior after only 2 games? Or because we then sent him down for another 5 games when he didn't produce?

This narrative is laughable tbh.

I've been told multiple times by multiple people on this board that bringing a player like Frost up to play 3rd/4th line mins isn't a bad thing and that plenty of great players thrive and "breakout" doing that. But then those same people turn around and say that to expect Frost to thrive in a role like that is ridiculous and that we're "mishandling him" by expecting him to play in such a role in the infancy of his NHL career. It's damned if you do and damned if you don't!


Not sure what Ghost is a great example of. We didn't "dick" Ghost around. He tore his ACL, which essentially burned an entire year of his development. And most guys need some time to get back to speed after tearing their ACL. If not for that injury to Streit, he likely would've spent MAYBE 20 or so additional games in the AHL. He was a top prospect and everyone knew/expected him to be beating down the doors to the big club very quickly. If Streit hadn't been injured, Ghost wasn't going to be "ruined" spending a few additional games in the minors.

But I do agree the role Ghost stepped into was perfect for his skillset. And I do agree that you give players the best chance to thrive when you bring them up and put them in a role commensurate with their talent and surround them with similarly talented teammates. Which is exactly why I'm not stressing if certain prospects spend big mins playing a big role for the Phantoms rather than playing bottom 6 or bottom pairing mins/roles for the Flyers.

I meant Ghost was a great example of how to do it right. He was put in a situation to succeed and made a huge impact on the team. Later in his career he was dicked around so he never met his potential. And yes, the injury factored in too.

An example of the Flyers normal path would be Sanheim. He was constantly scratched or sent down in favor of Brandon Manning, who is and never was an NHL player. Mannimg, however, was a fighter who spent many years in the AHL so he was seen as a "veteran". He had paid his dues and Sanheim hadnt, so they went with manning.

When Sanheim finally got a spot, he never was allowed to play to his strength whic was always offense. He was never really given PP oppurtunities. Instead, he was criticized fir being too skinny and not physical enough.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Like holding the team to some ideal standard of what a rebuild should be and ignoring that no team in the history of the modern game has met your standards?

You hear them using the term "rebuild" for the first time in decades (ever?) and rather than focus on that, you focus on the fact that Jonesy, when pressured by a sports talk radio arbitrarily threw out a 3 year timeline to contend. And you have developed this fantasy where now everyone is managing stringently to that deadline and they're screwing everything up because we need to have traded everyone by the end of the summer to meet that 3 year deadline (that nobody is actually managing to)!

Their actions speak louder than words. It's not a rebuild.

You'll admit I'm right eventually.

 

[TB87]

A new burner has arisen. It has arrived.

 

[deadhead]

I meant Ghost was a great example of how to do it right. He was put in a situation to succeed and made a huge impact on the team. Later in his career he was dicked around so he never met his potential. And yes, the injury factored in too.

An example of the Flyers normal path would be Sanheim. He was constantly scratched or sent down in favor of Brandon Manning, who is and never was an NHL player. Mannimg, however, was a fighter who spent many years in the AHL so he was seen as a "veteran". He had paid his dues and Sanheim hadnt, so they went with manning.

When Sanheim finally got a spot, he never was allowed to play to his strength whic was always offense. He was never really given PP oppurtunities. Instead, he was criticized fir being too skinny and not physical enough.

Sanheim was scratched as a rookie b/c he was clueless, he played better when he returned from the AHL only to be totally owned by the Pens in the playoffs.
He was a much better player the next season at 22. Doubt he'd been hurt at all spending his rookie season in the AHL.

 

[captainpaxil]

One of the great ironies of this board was attard in camp last year. He's an NCAA guy who is offensively skilled so he plays against type to get the coaches attention and gets in a fight and for the next month everyone is like useless facepuncher attard shouldn't be getting this long a look. Now everyone is back on the attard should be on the team because prospects should play theme.
Our players aren't very good. With the exception of rw and goalie there isn't much nhl future in any of our prospects. Our ahl team is loaded with mediocre talents. We are one draft into the rebuild.
It's on these guys to prove me wrong. To show the coach they belong by producing. By growing and adapting to make sure they get a place in the lineup.
There's no place for another yandle situation. Play hard and compete at both ends of the ice. I don't care about last year. We sucked. The whole team sucked. So if you don't make a team that sucks that means you're not as talented as you think you are. Play harder. You can only develop your skills so much but you can sure as hell go out there and suck at full speed. That's what I want to see.
In a year or two guys will come along who aren't debatably better but demonstrably better and by that time these young guys need to be playing as hard as they absolutely can or they aren't worth wasting time watching.
These aren't the stars of the future the question is are they the gritty veterans we need to show the future stars how to play

 

[Adam Warlock]

Sanheim was scratched as a rookie b/c he was clueless, he played better when he returned from the AHL only to be totally owned by the Pens in the playoffs.
He was a much better player the next season at 22. Doubt he'd been hurt at all spending his rookie season in the AHL.

More clueless than the guy who they played instead of him who couldnt stick in the nhl post Flyers? I dont think so. Like I said in my original post...Samheim was not brought into a position to succeed as a young player. Hakstol was clueless.

And while we are at it...was Pairing Provorov with MacDonald, another guy who no one else wanted, good for his development?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Sanheim was scratched as a rookie b/c he was clueless, he played better when he returned from the AHL only to be totally owned by the Pens in the playoffs.
He was a much better player the next season at 22. Doubt he'd been hurt at all spending his rookie season in the AHL.

He wasn't totally owned by the Pens. He was f***ing carrying MacD, who was absolutely owned.

 

[Beef Invictus]

One of the great ironies of this board was attard in camp last year. He's an NCAA guy who is offensively skilled so he plays against type to get the coaches attention and gets in a fight and for the next month everyone is like useless facepuncher attard shouldn't be getting this long a look. Now everyone is back on the attard should be on the team because prospects should play theme.
Our players aren't very good. With the exception of rw and goalie there isn't much nhl future in any of our prospects. Our ahl team is loaded with mediocre talents. We are one draft into the rebuild.
It's on these guys to prove me wrong. To show the coach they belong by producing. By growing and adapting to make sure they get a place in the lineup.
There's no place for another yandle situation. Play hard and compete at both ends of the ice. I don't care about last year. We sucked. The whole team sucked. So if you don't make a team that sucks that means you're not as talented as you think you are. Play harder. You can only develop your skills so much but you can sure as hell go out there and suck at full speed. That's what I want to see.
In a year or two guys will come along who aren't debatably better but demonstrably better and by that time these young guys need to be playing as hard as they absolutely can or they aren't worth wasting time watching.
These aren't the stars of the future the question is are they the gritty veterans we need to show the future stars how to play

Everyone was opposed to Attard getting a shot for fighting rather than for his play. It's a shitty process.

 

[ponder719]

Had a beer with everyone’s favourite ex Flyer Thursday.

How's G holding up? Still happy in Ottawa?

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Their actions speak louder than words. It's not a rebuild.

You'll admit I'm right eventually.

What exactly is it then? Can you enlighten me? I've seen this team try to win now before, handing out big splashy long term free agent contracts galore. I've seen this team try to "aggressively retool" by trading for mediocre former top prospects like Risto. And trading for a "prime" TDA.

Can you enlighten me as to what the strategy is when you take a player with top 10 pick that may not play in NA for 3 years, use your cap space to take on a bad contract for draft compensation, and then trade your best defenseman for more draft assets? That looks like a rebuild to me. But you're obviously playing 3D chess while I'm playing checkers. You see through this elaborate ruse, so please, educate me.

A new burner has arisen. It has arrived.

No burner account here my friend. I did post occasionally here back in college many moons (and 4-5 email addresses) ago. Been a long, long time though. Think I stopped checking this board around the time we traded Richie and Carter.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

What exactly is it then? Can you enlighten me? I've seen this team try to win now before, handing out big splashy long term free agent contracts galore. I've seen this team try to "aggressively retool" by trading for mediocre former top prospects like Risto. And trading for a "prime" TDA.

Can you enlighten me as to what the strategy is when you take a player with top 10 pick that may not play in NA for 3 years, use your cap space to take on a bad contract for draft compensation, and then trade your best defenseman for more draft assets? That looks like a rebuild to me. But you're obviously playing 3D chess while I'm playing checkers. You see through this elaborate ruse, so please, educate me.


No burner account here my friend. I did post occasionally here back in college many moons (and 4-5 email addresses) ago. Been a long, long time though. Think I stopped checking this board around the time we traded Richie and Carter.

you do know MM will play here next year right...

 

[Beef Invictus]

What exactly is it then? Can you enlighten me? I've seen this team try to win now before, handing out big splashy long term free agent contracts galore. I've seen this team try to "aggressively retool" by trading for mediocre former top prospects like Risto. And trading for a "prime" TDA.

Can you enlighten me as to what the strategy is when you take a player with top 10 pick that may not play in NA for 3 years, use your cap space to take on a bad contract for draft compensation, and then trade your best defenseman for more draft assets? That looks like a rebuild to me. But you're obviously playing 3D chess while I'm playing checkers. You see through this elaborate ruse, so please, educate me.


No burner account here my friend. I did post occasionally here back in college many moons (and 4-5 email addresses) ago. Been a long, long time though. Think I stopped checking this board around the time we traded Richie and Carter.

Culture retool. The same dumb thing the team always does.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

you do know MM will play here next year right...

That would be ideal for sure. Not sure that happens though. I don't think he spends the full 3 years in Russia, but maybe 2 seems like the most likely scenario.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Culture retool. The same dumb thing the team always does.

You're really just so much smarter than me. Cause now I'm totally lost. I really don't see how drafting a Russian with our top pick is playing into that "Flyers culture". I always thought we were known as the franchise that brought the USSR to its knees, forcing the Soviets to leave the ice in the middle of a game cause they couldn't handle our physicality...

I don't see an undersized russian winger as carrying the banner for "old school" Flyers culture.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

I meant Ghost was a great example of how to do it right. He was put in a situation to succeed and made a huge impact on the team. Later in his career he was dicked around so he never met his potential. And yes, the injury factored in too.

An example of the Flyers normal path would be Sanheim. He was constantly scratched or sent down in favor of Brandon Manning, who is and never was an NHL player. Mannimg, however, was a fighter who spent many years in the AHL so he was seen as a "veteran". He had paid his dues and Sanheim hadnt, so they went with manning.

When Sanheim finally got a spot, he never was allowed to play to his strength whic was always offense. He was never really given PP oppurtunities. Instead, he was criticized fir being too skinny and not physical enough.

I wouldn't really say he was dicked around. He had a serious injury, struggled a bit, fell out of favor with those associated struggles and Chuckles foolishly felt his skill set was no longer needed. He had shinier marbles to chase. So he made a terrible trade to pay someone to take him and then figured out a year later that we kind of missed Ghost and paid to trade for a pending FA that was a worse version of him.

Listen, Chuck was abysmal. We can all agree on that. The worst asset management I've seen in any sport by any GM during my lifetime. Bar none. But it's not like Ghost "blossomed" somewhere else and was being held back here. He was the same player in Phoenix and Carolina that he was here. The issue was one of a short-sighted GM. We've (hopefully) fixed that issue. I don't see Briere chasing any shiny marbles so far. He seems committed to building the right way. Beef will tell you that's all a ruse, but it doesn't look like one to me.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You're really just so much smarter than me. Cause now I'm totally lost. I really don't see how drafting a Russian with our top pick is playing into that "Flyers culture". I always thought we were known as the franchise that brought the USSR to its knees, forcing the Soviets to leave the ice in the middle of a game cause they couldn't handle our physicality...

I don't see an undersized russian winger as carrying the banner for "old school" Flyers culture.

Try checking out how the only players they moved were "culture" moves to appease the coach and they held onto everything with value.

 

[BernieParent]

Voracek ?

if so... we want deets

"So Jake, what kind of beer do you want me to order for you?"
"Get a Lite, Benny!"

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Try checking out how the only players they moved were "culture" moves to appease the coach and they held onto everything with value.

Provorov was a culture move for Torts? Damn. So I guess Torts was just faking it when he passionately supported Provy for not wearing a pride jersey, right? I know Torts is known for playing it close to the vest and not letting it be known what he's thinking so I guess that's possible *rolls eyes*

I'm not discounting the possibility that Torts could've had some impact on the Provy trade but that was primarily just a rebuilding move to pick up draft assets.

Hayes and TDA were certainly dump at all costs cause they clash with the coach / don't fit into our future plans moves. You could say those were culture moves. Those moves are also the types of moves you make when you're rebuilding too.

The key thing is what happens next. If we're at the 2024 draft and Laughton is still on this roster, you'll be looking really smart. If Laughton gets dealt at the deadline for a nice return, you'll look like a jaded fan that rushed to judgement too quickly.