2023-24 Roster Thread 3: We Three Flyers

[Beef Invictus]

Provorov was a culture move for Torts? Damn. So I guess Torts was just faking it when he passionately supported Provy for not wearing a pride jersey, right? I know Torts is known for playing it close to the vest and not letting it be known what he's thinking so I guess that's possible *rolls eyes*

I'm not discounting the possibility that Torts could've had some impact on the Provy trade but that was primarily just a rebuilding move to pick up draft assets.

Hayes and TDA were certainly dump at all costs cause they clash with the coach / don't fit into our future plans moves. You could say those were culture moves. Those moves are also the types of moves you make when you're rebuilding too.

The key thing is what happens next. If we're at the 2024 draft and Laughton is still on this roster, you'll be looking really smart. If Laughton gets dealt at the deadline for a nice return, you'll look like a jaded fan that rushed to judgement too quickly.

Laughton should have been moved in this draft. He wasnt. They also should have been exploring moving Tippett, TK, Ristolainen, and Seeler, but every indication is they didn't.

Theyve signed another horde of veterans that they'll use instead of finding out if any prospects are NHL players.

It isn't a rebuild. They said they think they'll be good to go in 3 years and their actions confirm that idiotic belief.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Laughton should have been moved in this draft. He wasnt. They also should have been exploring moving Tippett, TK, Ristolainen, and Seeler, but every indication is they didn't.

Theyve signed another horde of veterans that they'll use instead of finding out if any prospects are NHL players.

It isn't a rebuild. They said they think they'll be good to go in 3 years and their actions confirm that idiotic belief.

Laughton should be moved by NEXT YEAR's draft (really at the trade deadline). There was no rush. There remains no rush. He's 29, not 35. You can bring up any advanced stat you want to suggest he had a down year last year masked by an uptick in his counting stats due to ice time / usage and I won't argue it, the evidence seems to support that... but trying to then extrapolate that to "he's falling off a cliff due to age, we're risking getting nothing for him!" is baseless speculation. No major injury, 29 years old, no reason to expect he's declining or that that was anything more than a blip. He's going to be an extremely valuable commodity at the trade deadline given his contract as long as he is healthy. I wouldn't have been upset if he was moved this year, but the only team that reportedly made a strong offer was the Blues, the same team we were trying to deal Sanheim and Hayes to for one of their firsts. And they were never trading for both Sanheim/Hayes and Laughton too. It was one or the other While the Sanheim trade didn't work out because of Krug and his NTC, I think the logic in prioritizing a Sanheim trade prior to his NTC kicking and getting rid of a disgruntled Hayes over dealing Laughton was sound. And once the Sanheim trade was dead in the water and news of it all had leaked (from the St. Louis side), it was too late to put the genie back in the bottle. Hayes had to still be moved.

Seeler is a cheap rental defenseman you're going to get your best value for at the trade deadline and/or when another team suffers an injury and doesn't have an internal replacement. To think there would be a big market for him in the summer (or any market at all) is silliness.

Would love to find a team dumb enough to take on Risto, but unfortunately Chuck hasn't landed a new job yet.

Suggesting that we must move a 24 year old Tippett or a 26 year old Konecny is a little too far for me. Both could be valuable pieces when we're ready to contend. They're also both coming off the types of season where teams don't know how to value them. Was that a fluke? Are they breaking out for real? If they back it up again this season, or at the start of this season, that's when the offers get big. And if you trade one or both of them, it would need to be for top price, not just whatever you could get this summer. DB made it quite clear that the Flyers were/are open for business and fielding offers for anyone not named Cutter (and now Matvei). The offers obviously weren't strong enough to get anything done. I'm not mad at that.

 

[Deadpool8812]

Laughton should have been moved the moment any team offered a 1st and 2nd for him, or whatever the rumoured package was. If he has a bad season and his value tanks, Briere has no one to blame but himself for missing out on a great return for a 3rd line player.

Seeler was another one that should have been moved last season when he had value for how he was playing. Imagine holding onto a 30 years old journeyman for no reason whatsoever. What if he shits the bed this season and loses his value?

 

[deadhead]

Well, if they were offered a 2nd for Seeler, sure, if they were offered a 5th, how much can his value crater?

Culture matters in sports, just look at the Eagles. The important thing is having a consistent philosophy and getting players to buy in, Flyers are never going to field a team like Toronto or Edmonton, it's not just that they won't land 3-4 uber offensive talents, it's that they don't want an offense first team that isn't built for the playoffs. I don't think it's a coincidence that a less talented Florida team goes on a run when they add Tkachuk, they needed more of an "edge.." TB had plenty of grit up and down the lineup to go with skill. Helps to have a hot goalie, but also to limit how much you depend on that goalie.

The key word is "accountability," most winning teams have this as a core part of their culture, players policing each other and expecting teammates to put out effort and not be brain dead. I don't think Hayes was "lazy," like JVR he just didn't play with urgency. TDA played with urgency, but has rocks for brains.

It's easy for talented players to glide through shifts and after a minute, nothing good has happened. Some players can't be reached and have to be moved, others it's more a matter of the light going on, I think Frost started seeing that good things happened when he kicked it up another gear and started doing so more consistently.

Once you've established that culture of accountability, new players are more likely to buy in b/c they are soon subject to "death stares" in the c;lubhouse if they don't. And you can start to move some key veterans b/c young players have bought in and don't need to be policed.

AV and Lavi were more veteran oriented than Torts, who pissed off 30 year old Dubinsky by demoting him to 3C in favor of two much younger centers, who demoted Hayes for two much younger centers and so on. Most HCs are more conservative playing young D-men b/c their mistakes are more glaring as there's no one between them and the goalie.

Tort's MO is to break in 2-3 young players as starters each year, and give a couple cameos at the end of the season to give them a taste before being thrown into the fire next season. Foerster is a good bet to be in the top 9. Foerster and Lycksell got 8 games, Ersspm 12, Zamulia 14. Desonyers 4, Attard 2.

 

[Curufinwe]

Sanheim was scratched as a rookie b/c he was clueless, he played better when he returned from the AHL only to be totally owned by the Pens in the playoffs.

Sanheim was only on the ice for 2 GA in 4 games at 53:37 at ES against the Pens, and had the best ES GA/60 on the defense.

"owned"

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Laughton should have been moved in this draft. He wasnt. They also should have been exploring moving Tippett, TK, Ristolainen, and Seeler, but every indication is they didn't.

Theyve signed another horde of veterans that they'll use instead of finding out if any prospects are NHL players.

It isn't a rebuild. They said they think they'll be good to go in 3 years and their actions confirm that idiotic belief.

why is that?

Laughton should have been moved the moment any team offered a 1st and 2nd for him, or whatever the rumoured package was. If he has a bad season and his value tanks, Briere has no one to blame but himself for missing out on a great return for a 3rd line player.

Seeler was another one that should have been moved last season when he had value for how he was playing. Imagine holding onto a 30 years old journeyman for no reason whatsoever. What if he shits the bed this season and loses his value?

agree. Also several claim Seeler will be the 7th dman. If so wouldn't his vue had been higher at the deadline than this deadline Of course it would.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Laughton should be moved by NEXT YEAR's draft (really at the trade deadline). There was no rush. There remains no rush. He's 29, not 35. You can bring up any advanced stat you want to suggest he had a down year last year masked by an uptick in his counting stats due to ice time / usage and I won't argue it, the evidence seems to support that... but trying to then extrapolate that to "he's falling off a cliff due to age, we're risking getting nothing for him!" is baseless speculation. No major injury, 29 years old, no reason to expect he's declining or that that was anything more than a blip. He's going to be an extremely valuable commodity at the trade deadline given his contract as long as he is healthy. I wouldn't have been upset if he was moved this year, but the only team that reportedly made a strong offer was the Blues, the same team we were trying to deal Sanheim and Hayes to for one of their firsts. And they were never trading for both Sanheim/Hayes and Laughton too. It was one or the other While the Sanheim trade didn't work out because of Krug and his NTC, I think the logic in prioritizing a Sanheim trade prior to his NTC kicking and getting rid of a disgruntled Hayes over dealing Laughton was sound. And once the Sanheim trade was dead in the water and news of it all had leaked (from the St. Louis side), it was too late to put the genie back in the bottle. Hayes had to still be moved.

Seeler is a cheap rental defenseman you're going to get your best value for at the trade deadline and/or when another team suffers an injury and doesn't have an internal replacement. To think there would be a big market for him in the summer (or any market at all) is silliness.

Would love to find a team dumb enough to take on Risto, but unfortunately Chuck hasn't landed a new job yet.

Suggesting that we must move a 24 year old Tippett or a 26 year old Konecny is a little too far for me. Both could be valuable pieces when we're ready to contend. They're also both coming off the types of season where teams don't know how to value them. Was that a fluke? Are they breaking out for real? If they back it up again this season, or at the start of this season, that's when the offers get big. And if you trade one or both of them, it would need to be for top price, not just whatever you could get this summer. DB made it quite clear that the Flyers were/are open for business and fielding offers for anyone not named Cutter (and now Matvei). The offers obviously weren't strong enough to get anything done. I'm not mad at that.

what do you think is more likely. The Flyers didn't want to trade them or didn't get a strong offer for TK and Laughton?

 

[deadhead]

what do you think is more likely. The Flyers didn't want to trade them or didn't get a strong offer for TK and Laughton?

Both. The more a player is valued, the better the trade offer has to be to make a move.
TK and Laughton are tone setters, as young players get established (and if Couts and Atkinson are healthy) they'll have less value to the Flyers going forward.
But if the right offer comes along . . .

Interesting dynamic this season, with the flat cap teams are really squeezed this year, but expect the cap to rise, so they're hard balling on short-term contracts until they can build up some cap room the next couple seasons. Meanwhile, players don't want to give big discounts on long-term deal b/c the cap is set to rise in the future.

It's why the TDA buyout and Hayes retention made sense, creating cap room this season has more potential value than cap room the next couple seasons. So freeing up an additional $7M this season has more value than losing $5M next season and $3.5M the third year.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Well, if they were offered a 2nd for Seeler, sure, if they were offered a 5th, how much can his value crater?

Culture matters in sports, just look at the Eagles. The important thing is having a consistent philosophy and getting players to buy in, Flyers are never going to field a team like Toronto or Edmonton, it's not just that they won't land 3-4 uber offensive talents, it's that they don't want an offense first team that isn't built for the playoffs. I don't think it's a coincidence that a less talented Florida team goes on a run when they add Tkachuk, they needed more of an "edge.." TB had plenty of grit up and down the lineup to go with skill. Helps to have a hot goalie, but also to limit how much you depend on that goalie.

The key word is "accountability," most winning teams have this as a core part of their culture, players policing each other and expecting teammates to put out effort and not be brain dead. I don't think Hayes was "lazy," like JVR he just didn't play with urgency. TDA played with urgency, but has rocks for brains.

It's easy for talented players to glide through shifts and after a minute, nothing good has happened. Some players can't be reached and have to be moved, others it's more a matter of the light going on, I think Frost started seeing that good things happened when he kicked it up another gear and started doing so more consistently.

Once you've established that culture of accountability, new players are more likely to buy in b/c they are soon subject to "death stares" in the c;lubhouse if they don't. And you can start to move some key veterans b/c young players have bought in and don't need to be policed.

AV and Lavi were more veteran oriented than Torts, who pissed off 30 year old Dubinsky by demoting him to 3C in favor of two much younger centers, who demoted Hayes for two much younger centers and so on. Most HCs are more conservative playing young D-men b/c their mistakes are more glaring as there's no one between them and the goalie.

Tort's MO is to break in 2-3 young players as starters each year, and give a couple cameos at the end of the season to give them a taste before being thrown into the fire next season. Foerster is a good bet to be in the top 9. Foerster and Lycksell got 8 games, Ersspm 12, Zamulia 14. Desonyers 4, Attard 2.

if he becomes a press box staple like you seem think, then what is his value. The market was set at a 4th rd last deadline. He should have been moved. There i no defending it. You them go find the ext seeler if you want a vet which the flyers clearly do.You sign these guys and move them is how you acquire mid rd assets.

Accountability. Did the coach really preach this last year? not on any consistent basis and in some instances not at all.

Flyers still have a rotten core that is accustomed to losing. So until they weed them out, looks like they don't want to with some, it won't change. Can't wait to see how this year goes with JT in his 2nd year now that his "system" is in place and the players now what he expects.

every nhl team does this for the most part. This isn't any nw revelation. They had no choice but to "break in" young starters last year. No matter who the coach.

 

[Cody Webster]

Both. The more a player is valued, the better the trade offer has to be to make a move.
TK and Laughton are tone setters, as young players get established (and if Couts and Atkinson are healthy) they'll have less value to the Flyers going forward.
But if the right offer comes along . . .

Interesting dynamic this season, with the flat cap teams are really squeezed this year, but expect the cap to rise, so they're hard balling on short-term contracts until they can build up some cap room the next couple seasons. Meanwhile, players don't want to give big discounts on long-term deal b/c the cap is set to rise in the future.

It's why the TDA buyout and Hayes retention made sense, creating cap room this season has more potential value than cap room the next couple seasons. So freeing up an additional $7M this season has more value than losing $5M next season and $3.5M the third year.

You forgot to log back into the account he was responding to

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Both. The more a player is valued, the better the trade offer has to be to make a move.
TK and Laughton are tone setters, as young players get established (and if Couts and Atkinson are healthy) they'll have less value to the Flyers going forward.
But if the right offer comes along . . .

Interesting dynamic this season, with the flat cap teams are really squeezed this year, but expect the cap to rise, so they're hard balling on short-term contracts until they can build up some cap room the next couple seasons. Meanwhile, players don't want to give big discounts on long-term deal b/c the cap is set to rise in the future.

It's why the TDA buyout and Hayes retention made sense, creating cap room this season has more potential value than cap room the next couple seasons. So freeing up an additional $7M this season has more value than losing $5M next season and $3.5M the third year.

it is not both. They set a current high price tag they know will not be met. Therefore they do not want to trade them. Will that change? We shall see. I pray for pure entertainment purposes they keep both and re-sign TK for 8 years 8 million per.

Let me ask you this, if the coach told the co -GM to move them what do you think happens?

Tone setters. They are losers (good players who have value) and all they know is losing. That is the tone they set.

No issue with the TDA buyout though would have kept him. Do not like the Haye sbuy out at all. The GM should have flat out told the coach to make it work instead of caving in to his demands. Stop with the culture has both were well liked and good in the locker room. The coach flat out refused to bend in any way to make it work for another year. Which would have been in the organizations best interests. the coach puts his interest ahead of the teams imo.

 

[deadhead]

Why would you want to make it work with Hayes?
Other than scoring, he's exactly what people don't want, slow, lacks urgency, doesn't work hard on defense.

You're rebuilding, if you keep a veteran, it's to mentor young players and re-enforce culture.
Or because their contract makes them unmovable in the short-run (Risto, Sanheim).

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Why would you want to make it work with Hayes?
Other than scoring, he's exactly what people don't want, slow, lacks urgency, doesn't work hard on defense.

You're rebuilding, if you keep a veteran, it's to mentor young players and re-enforce culture.
Or because their contract makes them unmovable in the short-run (Risto, Sanheim).

why wouldn't you want to make it work with Hayes? Werent/arent you a big Hayes fann by the way? What's changed?

Hayes is the same player now as he was 4 years ago. You liked him then. Now all of a sudden your stance has changed. Why? In another post you said Hayes wasn't lazy. Yet in bold pretty much describes a lazy player.

Flyers are not rebuilding.

 

[Striiker]

The burners are going nuts lately

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Laughton should be moved by NEXT YEAR's draft (really at the trade deadline). There was no rush. There remains no rush. He's 29, not 35. You can bring up any advanced stat you want to suggest he had a down year last year masked by an uptick in his counting stats due to ice time / usage and I won't argue it, the evidence seems to support that... but trying to then extrapolate that to "he's falling off a cliff due to age, we're risking getting nothing for him!" is baseless speculation. No major injury, 29 years old, no reason to expect he's declining or that that was anything more than a blip. He's going to be an extremely valuable commodity at the trade deadline given his contract as long as he is healthy. I wouldn't have been upset if he was moved this year, but the only team that reportedly made a strong offer was the Blues, the same team we were trying to deal Sanheim and Hayes to for one of their firsts. And they were never trading for both Sanheim/Hayes and Laughton too. It was one or the other While the Sanheim trade didn't work out because of Krug and his NTC, I think the logic in prioritizing a Sanheim trade prior to his NTC kicking and getting rid of a disgruntled Hayes over dealing Laughton was sound. And once the Sanheim trade was dead in the water and news of it all had leaked (from the St. Louis side), it was too late to put the genie back in the bottle. Hayes had to still be moved.

Seeler is a cheap rental defenseman you're going to get your best value for at the trade deadline and/or when another team suffers an injury and doesn't have an internal replacement. To think there would be a big market for him in the summer (or any market at all) is silliness.

Would love to find a team dumb enough to take on Risto, but unfortunately Chuck hasn't landed a new job yet.

Suggesting that we must move a 24 year old Tippett or a 26 year old Konecny is a little too far for me. Both could be valuable pieces when we're ready to contend. They're also both coming off the types of season where teams don't know how to value them. Was that a fluke? Are they breaking out for real? If they back it up again this season, or at the start of this season, that's when the offers get big. And if you trade one or both of them, it would need to be for top price, not just whatever you could get this summer. DB made it quite clear that the Flyers were/are open for business and fielding offers for anyone not named Cutter (and now Matvei). The offers obviously weren't strong enough to get anything done. I'm not mad at that.

by the way welcome to the flyers board. Glad to see some new posters.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Exhibit A of why this is a trailer park franchise.

Worried about the max trade value of secondary pieces, instead of draft position in what is apparently a rebuild.

 

[flyershockey]

Well, if they were offered a 2nd for Seeler, sure, if they were offered a 5th, how much can his value crater?

Culture matters in sports, just look at the Eagles. The important thing is having a consistent philosophy and getting players to buy in, Flyers are never going to field a team like Toronto or Edmonton, it's not just that they won't land 3-4 uber offensive talents, it's that they don't want an offense first team that isn't built for the playoffs. I don't think it's a coincidence that a less talented Florida team goes on a run when they add Tkachuk, they needed more of an "edge.." TB had plenty of grit up and down the lineup to go with skill. Helps to have a hot goalie, but also to limit how much you depend on that goalie.

The key word is "accountability," most winning teams have this as a core part of their culture, players policing each other and expecting teammates to put out effort and not be brain dead. I don't think Hayes was "lazy," like JVR he just didn't play with urgency. TDA played with urgency, but has rocks for brains.

It's easy for talented players to glide through shifts and after a minute, nothing good has happened. Some players can't be reached and have to be moved, others it's more a matter of the light going on, I think Frost started seeing that good things happened when he kicked it up another gear and started doing so more consistently.

Once you've established that culture of accountability, new players are more likely to buy in b/c they are soon subject to "death stares" in the c;lubhouse if they don't. And you can start to move some key veterans b/c young players have bought in and don't need to be policed.

AV and Lavi were more veteran oriented than Torts, who pissed off 30 year old Dubinsky by demoting him to 3C in favor of two much younger centers, who demoted Hayes for two much younger centers and so on. Most HCs are more conservative playing young D-men b/c their mistakes are more glaring as there's no one between them and the goalie.

Tort's MO is to break in 2-3 young players as starters each year, and give a couple cameos at the end of the season to give them a taste before being thrown into the fire next season. Foerster is a good bet to be in the top 9. Foerster and Lycksell got 8 games, Ersspm 12, Zamulia 14. Desonyers 4, Attard 2.

This isn't college or juniors. These guys have million dollar careers at stake. The idea that a group of professionals who have made it to the very top of their chosen profession somehow lack accountability is just a reach.

Ironically enough, Torts was the one who basically decided not to do his job towards the end of last season. I guess that's the pinnacle of accountability.

 

[deadhead]

why wouldn't you want to make it work with Hayes? Werent/arent you a big Hayes fann by the way? What's changed?

Hayes is the same player now as he was 4 years ago. You liked him then. Now all of a sudden your stance has changed. Why? In another post you said Hayes wasn't lazy. Yet in bold pretty much describes a lazy player.

Flyers are not rebuilding.

Four years ago Holmgren hired Fletcher with a mandate to win now, the rebuild was over.

With Patrick as damaged goods, Flyers needed a 2C, only FAs were Hayes, Duchene and Pavelski (who was 35). Duchene was wired to Nashville, Pavelski wanted to stay in the West, so Hayes was pretty much it - for those who say the Flyers could have traded for a center, what tradeable assets did they have other than 1st rd picks? You're not getting a 2C for second rate prospects.

They gave Hayes a fair FA contract (pre-Covid), one extra year, one extra million, the standard FA overpay. Duchene was also overpaid.
Both were dumped this offseason.

Hayes is definitely slower, some may be age, most is probably due to injury, and that has exposed his defense.
He's still fine as an offense first 3C, sheltered defensively, who can contribute on the PP as well - but the Flyers don't need that player.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Four years ago Holmgren hired Fletcher with a mandate to win now, the rebuild was over.

With Patrick as damaged goods, Flyers needed a 2C, only FAs were Hayes, Duchene and Pavelski (who was 35). Duchene was wired to Nashville, Pavelski wanted to stay in the West, so Hayes was pretty much it - for those who say the Flyers could have traded for a center, what tradeable assets did they have other than 1st rd picks? You're not getting a 2C for second rate prospects.

They gave Hayes a fair FA contract (pre-Covid), one extra year, one extra million, the standard FA overpay. Duchene was also overpaid.
Both were dumped this offseason.

Hayes is definitely slower, some may be age, most is probably due to injury, and that has exposed his defense.
He's still fine as an offense first 3C, sheltered defensively, who can contribute on the PP as well - but the Flyers don't need that player.

Thanks for the long winded summary. He looks like the same player to me. See how he looks now a year after the surgery and season under his belt. Still didnt answer why you have now soured on him.

Instead of Hayes couldn't they have moved clode back to center then go after a winger? Let's hear your logic why that wasn't possible.

Have you ever admitted yet that Chuck was terrible GM. Chuck should have been given a mandate to lose then maybe they reverse would have happened as his mandate to win was a total failure

 

[Beef Invictus]

Laughton should be moved by NEXT YEAR's draft (really at the trade deadline). There was no rush. There remains no rush. He's 29, not 35. You can bring up any advanced stat you want to suggest he had a down year last year masked by an uptick in his counting stats due to ice time / usage and I won't argue it, the evidence seems to support that... but trying to then extrapolate that to "he's falling off a cliff due to age, we're risking getting nothing for him!" is baseless speculation. No major injury, 29 years old, no reason to expect he's declining or that that was anything more than a blip. He's going to be an extremely valuable commodity at the trade deadline given his contract as long as he is healthy. I wouldn't have been upset if he was moved this year, but the only team that reportedly made a strong offer was the Blues, the same team we were trying to deal Sanheim and Hayes to for one of their firsts. And they were never trading for both Sanheim/Hayes and Laughton too. It was one or the other While the Sanheim trade didn't work out because of Krug and his NTC, I think the logic in prioritizing a Sanheim trade prior to his NTC kicking and getting rid of a disgruntled Hayes over dealing Laughton was sound. And once the Sanheim trade was dead in the water and news of it all had leaked (from the St. Louis side), it was too late to put the genie back in the bottle. Hayes had to still be moved.

Seeler is a cheap rental defenseman you're going to get your best value for at the trade deadline and/or when another team suffers an injury and doesn't have an internal replacement. To think there would be a big market for him in the summer (or any market at all) is silliness.

Would love to find a team dumb enough to take on Risto, but unfortunately Chuck hasn't landed a new job yet.

Suggesting that we must move a 24 year old Tippett or a 26 year old Konecny is a little too far for me. Both could be valuable pieces when we're ready to contend. They're also both coming off the types of season where teams don't know how to value them. Was that a fluke? Are they breaking out for real? If they back it up again this season, or at the start of this season, that's when the offers get big. And if you trade one or both of them, it would need to be for top price, not just whatever you could get this summer. DB made it quite clear that the Flyers were/are open for business and fielding offers for anyone not named Cutter (and now Matvei). The offers obviously weren't strong enough to get anything done. I'm not mad at that.

They aren't even exploring this stuff. And the time to start trading everyone was now. They have too many needs to wait around. They need to get everything on the same timeline.

TK is going to be in his 30s by the time the team starts being good if everything goes well. The team won't move him because they think they're gonna be good to go in 3 years. Likewise, Tippett has all the makings of a middle six flash in the pan. Deal him while he has value.

The Flyers are behaving the way they are because they really think they can turn everything around in 3 years like they said. They are wrong. It isn't a rebuild. It's more of the same. You'll find out.

 

[deadhead]

Thanks for the long winded summary. He looks like the same player to me. See how he looks now a year after the surgery and season under his belt. Still didnt answer why you have now soured on him.

Instead of Hayes couldn't they have moved clode back to center then go after a winger? Let's hear your logic why that wasn't possible.

Have you ever admitted yet that Chuck was terrible GM. Chuck should have been given a mandate to lose then maybe they reverse would have happened as his mandate to win was a total failure

G was a far better LW than a center at that point in his career, and that was obvious a couple years ago when he was forced to play center.

The real problem was the Flyers were a 85-90 point team that got the dead cat bounce the first season under AV, then settled back to their norm, made worse by a goalie meltdown his second season.

I think Fletcher did a good job his first season, given the delusional mandate handed him by Holmgren, try to win with a short window of opportunity.

I think by his third season Fletcher's unwillingness to make waves did him in, it was obvious by some of his comments that he knew the team wasn't competitive, and needed to get younger, but he lacked the balls to confront Scott and make it clear that it was time to rebuild - so he half assed everything. Good trade with G negated by the Risto trade and then not moving Risto and Sanheim at the TDL, followed by the TDA trade. A totally incoherent strategy driven by Scott's insistence (probably fueled by Barber's advice) to "aggressively reload."

I blame organizational incompetence as much as Fletcher, he was a mediocre by the books GM given an impossible task.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

G was a far better LW than a center at that point in his career, and that was obvious a couple years ago when he was forced to play center.

The real problem was the Flyers were a 85-90 point team that got the dead cat bounce the first season under AV, then settled back to their norm, made worse by a goalie meltdown his second season.

I think Fletcher did a good job his first season, given the delusional mandate handed him by Holmgren, try to win with a short window of opportunity.

I think by his third season Fletcher's unwillingness to make waves did him in, it was obvious by some of his comments that he knew the team wasn't competitive, and needed to get younger, but he lacked the balls to confront Scott and make it clear that it was time to rebuild - so he half assed everything. Good trade with G negated by the Risto trade and then not moving Risto and Sanheim at the TDL, followed by the TDA trade. A totally incoherent strategy driven by Scott's insistence (probably fueled by Barber's advice) to "aggressively reload."

I blame organizational incompetence as much as Fletcher, he was a mediocre by the books GM given an impossible task.

Having him better at wing still doesn't preclude him from being a better option a center over Hayes.

Jesus Christ chuck was god awful overall. He will never be employed again as GM. He also has no fn backbone to not pivot from his "mandate". A smart/good GM would have laid it out for his boss why they can't win. Then either say fie me or let me turn this around. Either he is is terrible at the end of the day.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

They aren't even exploring this stuff. And the time to start trading everyone was now. They have too many needs to wait around. They need to get everything on the same timeline.

TK is going to be in his 30s by the time the team starts being good if everything goes well. The team won't move him because they think they're gonna be good to go in 3 years. Likewise, Tippett has all the makings of a middle six flash in the pan. Deal him while he has value.

The Flyers are behaving the way they are because they really think they can turn everything around in 3 years like they said. They are wrong. It isn't a rebuild. It's more of the same. You'll find out.

how so? what is his value in your opinion

 

[Beef Invictus]

how so? what is his value in your opinion

If he can be traded for Giroux, and Laughton is worth a 1st, he should be worth a first.

As I said all last season, Tippett finding a higher level of play was a lot of fun. But he doesn't give me the idea that he's going to still be good many years from now when a real rebuild would maybe be finished. But they wrongly think they're pretty much done already.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

If he can be traded for Giroux, and Laughton is worth a 1st, he should be worth a first.

As I said all last season, Tippett finding a higher level of play was a lot of fun. But he doesn't give me the idea that he's going to still be good many years from now when a real rebuild would maybe be finished. But they wrongly think they're pretty much done already.

I am not opposed to moving anyone on this roster. If he maintains the same level of play and to me no reason he can't then he is a solid piece.

Can also say the same thing about other players. Sell high or don't get a feeling they will still be good.