2023-24 Roster Thread 3: We Three Flyers

[trostol]

Exhibit A of why this is a trailer park franchise.

Worried about the max trade value of secondary pieces, instead of draft position in what is apparently a rebuild.

rumored rebuild...rumored

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

The same scouts and development theories that failed Hextall are still in place now. Which is why I've long said any real rebuild begins with purging the whole office. They haven't. It's the same people doing all the same stuff. It's the same.

If you set unrealistic expectations and then prognosticate that the team won't meet your wildly unrealistic expectations then you can never be wrong.

"I've always said it's not a real rebuild until we fire everyone"
-Well, no team ever fires their entire front office / scouting staff at the same time, so by your definition here, there has never been a real rebuild that took place in the NHL by any team ever.

"We needed to trade everyone this offseason, now we're behind the curve"
-Again, no team in history (and I've asked you multiple times for your best examples of a successful rebuild) has ever unloaded as many pieces as you wanted/expected unloaded in a single offseason. Of course, every time I bring that up, you just respond with the ridiculous statement that every situation is unique and that the Flyers are in too dire a position to compare with any other team ever.

Just a few posts ago you seemed to admit that this Flyers offseason has been different in that we ACQUIRED draft assets, didn't give out any bad long term contracts and didn't make any bad trades for veteran players. You of course qualified that by saying this is the absolute bare minimum that a team should do, but you still seemed to at least understand that this was something different than what we've done every other year since Hextall. Maybe it wasn't as much as you wanted to see happen, but it was still different. Now you're back to this "same people doing the same stuff" trope.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

they should 100%

we have gone back and forth on what i think he should have done.

all the f/a signings reak of JT. who was traded and who was almost traded all JT. Coaches have next to nothing to do with drafts. so that's not relevant imo.enough evidence to show he is doing a lot of what the coach wants

also DB does not get a pass on the Tony D trade, he was part of that process. also had a hand in nic d

I don't really have the desire to argue whether the 4th line and bottom pairing/depth signings we made are more Torts or Briere or some combo thereof. Assuming those are Torts moves is pure conjecture, but let's go with that... Again, Danny doesn't have the authority to fire Torts (on that I think we can all agree... he's liked by Danny's bosses), so he has to work with him. A good GM always has some give and take with his coach. Giving Torts a vet defenseman he likes for depth/leadership on a near min 1 year deal and signing a few high effort defensively responsible forwards for our 4th line to short term deals is hardly the end of the world or anything even close. We still have plenty of room with LTIR to retain salary in a trade and or to take back a bad contract or two in a trade and it's not like we had any other great options to use the meager cap space these moves took up.

Danny absolutely gets a pass on the Tony D trade and the Nick D signing. It's not like he was the 1st or even 2nd in command when those went down. He was 3rd at best behind Chuckles and Flahr (probably more like 4th or 5th). He had no real power or say. His job was to learn. Those moves followed the exact same pattern of awful moves that Chuck made in Minnesota and in his 3+ years here before Briere even had a role as a "special advisor". To act like Briere's hands are dirty for those moves is disingenuous at best. He showed you what he thinks of TDA pretty quick. And he also showed you that he's not the type to dole out 4 years to grinders.

 

[Beef Invictus]

If you set unrealistic expectations and then prognosticate that the team won't meet your wildly unrealistic expectations then you can never be wrong.

"I've always said it's not a real rebuild until we fire everyone"
-Well, no team ever fires their entire front office / scouting staff at the same time, so by your definition here, there has never been a real rebuild that took place in the NHL by any team ever.

"We needed to trade everyone this offseason, now we're behind the curve"
-Again, no team in history (and I've asked you multiple times for your best examples of a successful rebuild) has ever unloaded as many pieces as you wanted/expected unloaded in a single offseason. Of course, every time I bring that up, you just respond with the ridiculous statement that every situation is unique and that the Flyers are in too dire a position to compare with any other team ever.

Just a few posts ago you seemed to admit that this Flyers offseason has been different in that we ACQUIRED draft assets, didn't give out any bad long term contracts and didn't make any bad trades for veteran players. You of course qualified that by saying this is the absolute bare minimum that a team should do, but you still seemed to at least understand that this was something different than what we've done every other year since Hextall. Maybe it wasn't as much as you wanted to see happen, but it was still different. Now you're back to this "same people doing the same stuff" trope.

.
Acquiring a bare minimum of draft assets isn't new. Hextall. They're doing the same nonsense. Hell, Holmgren even did it.

Expecting the team to take the measures needed to fix itself isn't unrealistic. The Flyers are among the worst managed teams in sports, not just the NHL. The front office has barely changed in many years. It's comical that anyone thinks this group of the same people will magically produce results different from what they always have.

 

[Curufinwe]

Did the Flyers fix Rasmus Ristolainen? A look at his improvements and whether he can sustain them

Ristolainen became something of a stand-in for fans' frustration regarding the lack of organizational direction showcased by the Flyers.

theathletic.com

Charlie comparing the "new and improved" Ristolainen to prime Braun in San Jose is hilarious given than Braun was still better than Risto defensively last season when they were on the same team and Braun was about to retire.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

That’s Charlie trying too hard not to be accused of being an analytic nerd.

 

[Curufinwe]

As cheap as dumba was he'd have been a great pick up for us to sell off at the deadline

It'll be fascinating to see what trade value Dumba has when he gets traded for the first time ever.

 

[Striiker]

Charlie is Meltzer Jr

 

[Adam Warlock]

If you set unrealistic expectations and then prognosticate that the team won't meet your wildly unrealistic expectations then you can never be wrong.

"I've always said it's not a real rebuild until we fire everyone"
-Well, no team ever fires their entire front office / scouting staff at the same time, so by your definition here, there has never been a real rebuild that took place in the NHL by any team ever.

"We needed to trade everyone this offseason, now we're behind the curve"
-Again, no team in history (and I've asked you multiple times for your best examples of a successful rebuild) has ever unloaded as many pieces as you wanted/expected unloaded in a single offseason. Of course, every time I bring that up, you just respond with the ridiculous statement that every situation is unique and that the Flyers are in too dire a position to compare with any other team ever.

Just a few posts ago you seemed to admit that this Flyers offseason has been different in that we ACQUIRED draft assets, didn't give out any bad long term contracts and didn't make any bad trades for veteran players. You of course qualified that by saying this is the absolute bare minimum that a team should do, but you still seemed to at least understand that this was something different than what we've done every other year since Hextall. Maybe it wasn't as much as you wanted to see happen, but it was still different. Now you're back to this "same people doing the same stuff" trope.

I am with you that people expecting Hayes, TK, Laughton,TDA, Provy, Hart, Sanheim, etc all gone in one offseason are being unrealistic. To me, they are still in phase 1 of this thing through this season (evaluating players they have,moving guys out,gaining assets, drafting high)...so guys continuing to be moved out leading up to june is fine with me.

BUT i get the frustration too bc Briere clearly prioritized moving out guys Torts doesnt like and those were the guys with no value this offseason. Which fine, if hes comitited to continuing to move guys out ove the next year its not a big deal, but I like many am not convinced he will.

I love TK, but in a true rebuild hes a prime trade candidate. They have tons of RW depth, he would get you valuable assets in return, and you avoid giving him a massive contract in 2 years. Again, he could move him this year and all is well...but it comes back to the torts thing. If TK is not traded simply bc Torts "likes him"....thats a problem. Same with Laughton. I know theyre obsessed with their "culture" bs... but a guys "lockeroom presence" is never ever worth more than 1st round picks in a rebuild.

Bottom line: People will be skeptical until guys like TK and Laughton get moved. If Briere fails to do so, then it is clear this team is willing to make poor roster decisions and sacrifice assets and cap space in the name of "culture"...which is why this org can never build a winner.

 

[TB87]

That’s Charlie trying too hard not to be accused of being an analytic nerd.

Way, way too hard lol. There is “maybe” one paragraph that diagnoses Risto’s game via eye-test. That is absurd and frankly lazy-ass writing.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I am with you that people expecting Hayes, TK, Laughton,TDA, Provy, Hart, Sanheim, etc all gone in one offseason are being unrealistic. To me, they are still in phase 1 of this thing through this season (evaluating players they have,moving guys out,gaining assets, drafting high)...so guys continuing to be moved out leading up to june is fine with me.

BUT i get the frustration too bc Briere clearly prioritized moving out guys Torts doesnt like and those were the guys with no value this offseason. Which fine, if hes comitited to continuing to move guys out ove the next year its not a big deal, but I like many am not convinced he will.

I love TK, but in a true rebuild hes a prime trade candidate. They have tons of RW depth, he would get you valuable assets in return, and you avoid giving him a massive contract in 2 years. Again, he could move him this year and all is well...but it comes back to the torts thing. If TK is not traded simply bc Torts "likes him"....thats a problem. Same with Laughton. I know theyre obsessed with their "culture" bs... but a guys "lockeroom presence" is never ever worth more than 1st round picks in a rebuild.

Bottom line: People will be skeptical until guys like TK and Laughton get moved. If Briere fails to do so, then it is clear this team is willing to make poor roster decisions and sacrifice assets and cap space in the name of "culture"...which is why this org can never build a winner.

Yes. As far as I'm concerned, this organization made of all the same people has to actually prove they're different beyond a doubt. Otherwise I assume the same people are the same.

 

[deadhead]

Way, way too hard lol. There is “maybe” one paragraph that diagnoses Risto’s game via eye-test. That is absurd and frankly lazy-ass writing.

The eye test says that Risto improved as well. He wasn't chasing hits and getting out of position, which was his biggest issue.
I think he still needs a lot of work before it becomes second nature, and he needs to understand angles better to be more confident challenging forwards at the blue line and breaking up entries.
If Shaw can continue to work with Risto and turn him into a reliable defensive D-man, he'll have a market next summer, maybe with $1-2M retained.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

BUT i get the frustration too bc Briere clearly prioritized moving out guys Torts doesnt like and those were the guys with no value this offseason. Which fine, if hes comitited to continuing to move guys out ove the next year its not a big deal, but I like many am not convinced he will.

I get that 2 of the 3 players we traded/bought out happened to be guys Torts didn't like that had little to no value (Provy was not reported to have any issues with Torts and we got great value for him) but they were also older players with no future here that were only going to be problems if they remained on the roster. I don't think moving those guys out prevented us from making any further moves. I think Torey Krug did that and I also think the market did that.

There were exactly two 2023 first round picks moved from the time Briere took over as GM up to the draft and Briere got one of them (it would've been 2 of 3 if not for Krug invoking his NMC). Briere got the 21st overall and the only other pick that moved was 31st overall). The only 2024 first round picks that have moved since Briere took over were for DeBrincat and Karlsson. It goes without saying, but these are players the caliber of which we do not currently have on our roster. And even those two deals were deals where most analysts view the buyers as having won.

Teams have been extraordinarily stingy with their picks this offseason. It's actually been a trend for a number of years now. The deadline is the preferred time for NHL GMs to make acquisitions. Fringe contenders don't want to risk trading a first round pick only to miss the playoffs anyway and top teams often believe they don't need more firepower at the expense of their first round pick (until proven otherwise during the season). Trading at the deadline minimizes their risk.

Now if we had an unhappy ticking timebomb like DeBrincat or Karlsson, perhaps we would've been forced to just take what we could get. But TK and Laughton are not unhappy, they are signed for multiple years to reasonable deals and as a rebuilding team, we have the benefit of time. There was no reason to force ourselves to trade in a buyer's market.

I love TK, but in a true rebuild hes a prime trade candidate. They have tons of RW depth, he would get you valuable assets in return, and you avoid giving him a massive contract in 2 years. Again, he could move him this year and all is well...but it comes back to the torts thing. If TK is not traded simply bc Torts "likes him"....thats a problem. Same with Laughton. I know theyre obsessed with their "culture" bs... but a guys "lockeroom presence" is never ever worth more than 1st round picks in a rebuild.

He's definitely a prime trade candidate. He's also at an age where he could absolutely be one of the vets leading the team as you become a playoff/cup contender. In the right deal? Absolutely move him. If that offer doesn't come and TK backs up his production from last year? I have no problem keeping him. The process absolutely matters. If we keep him cause he's a Torts guy and for culture, you're right that's awful. If we keep him because we think his production is worth more than the offers we're getting, that's fine. No rebuilding team dumps every player. Think Carolina keeping Staal.

Bottom line: People will be skeptical until guys like TK and Laughton get moved. If Briere fails to do so, then it is clear this team is willing to make poor roster decisions and sacrifice assets and cap space in the name of "culture"...which is why this org can never build a winner.

That's fair. And agreed 1000% on Laughton. He needs to be gone at the deadline and if he isn't, that's a failure. But again, the deadline was always the time to expect Laughton to be moved. It's when teams are most willing to deal their picks, and it's when Laughton's contract is most valuable.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

The eye test says that Risto improved as well. He wasn't chasing hits and getting out of position, which was his biggest issue.
I think he still needs a lot of work before it becomes second nature, and he needs to understand angles better to be more confident challenging forwards at the blue line and breaking up entries.
If Shaw can continue to work with Risto and turn him into a reliable defensive D-man, he'll have a market next summer, maybe with $1-2M retained.

Risto is still pretty bad (and I'm putting that nicely). It'd be a miracle if there's a market for him as anything more than a pure cap dump with the max retained. If by some even larger miracle Chuck lands another GM job, I feel like that's the only way we get something of value for him.

 

[deadhead]

Risto is still pretty bad (and I'm putting that nicely). It'd be a miracle if there's a market for him as anything more than a pure cap dump with the max retained. If by some even larger miracle Chuck lands another GM job, I feel like that's the only way we get something of value for him.

Uh, go look at trades for big RHDs the last 3-4 years, Risto wasn't an exception, a number of these players garnered 1st rd picks.

 

[Curufinwe]

No trade market for Angelo

No trade market for Hayes even with 50% retention

But the trade market for a slightly retained Risto will be huge.... just ask the guy who has been wrong about everything for the past four years.

 

[FromOyVey2Matvei]

Uh, go look at trades for big RHDs the last 3-4 years, Risto wasn't an exception, a number of these players garnered 1st rd picks.

I'm happy to look at whatever trades you're talking about, but I don't really find it necessary. If other teams overpayed for oafish right handed defensemen, that's their problem. It doesn't justify the absolutely abysmal trade Chuck made to satisfy his size fetish or the extension he handed out to compound his mistake. The Flyers organization would be much better off today if we had those picks back and had either filled the spot with a smaller / left handed defenseman from our system or a mediocre free agent.

I'm happy to wager any amount you'd like that if/when Risto is dealt, it won't be for a 1st or even a 2nd.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

The eye test says that Risto improved as well. He wasn't chasing hits and getting out of position, which was his biggest issue.
I think he still needs a lot of work before it becomes second nature, and he needs to understand angles better to be more confident challenging forwards at the blue line and breaking up entries.
If Shaw can continue to work with Risto and turn him into a reliable defensive D-man, he'll have a market next summer, maybe with $1-2M retained.

how much time did Risto spend on the 3rd pair? less a more favorable matchup he looked better. He is what 29 it may never become 2nd nature a this point.

Your the coah dead. Do you keep hi on the rd pair where he is more productive or play him in a top 4?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Uh, go look at trades for big RHDs the last 3-4 years, Risto wasn't an exception, a number of these players garnered 1st rd picks.

No player as terrible as Risto go anything like that return.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Uh, go look at trades for big RHDs the last 3-4 years, Risto wasn't an exception, a number of these players garnered 1st rd picks.

all easily better than Risto with no term.

 

[Magua]

What makes anyone think this team would even want to trade Ristolainen?

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

No trade market for Angelo

No trade market for Hayes even with 50% retention

But the trade market for a slightly retained Risto will be huge.... just ask the guy who has been wrong about everything for the past four years.

I wouldn’t even take Risto at half price for a 7th round pick. Thats how much he sucks.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I wouldn’t even take Risto at half price for a 7th round pick. Thats how much he sucks.

Risto with term is unmovable, eben at 50% retention. As someone said they may not want to move him. Though imo I don't think they are a attached to him as others.

Co-GM must have that list of the what was it 7 teams who also offered a first for him 2 years ago, get on the horn Daniel.

 

[wasup]

I get that 2 of the 3 players we traded/bought out happened to be guys Torts didn't like that had little to no value (Provy was not reported to have any issues with Torts and we got great value for him) but they were also older players with no future here that were only going to be problems if they remained on the roster. I don't think moving those guys out prevented us from making any further moves. I think Torey Krug did that and I also think the market did that.

There were exactly two 2023 first round picks moved from the time Briere took over as GM up to the draft and Briere got one of them (it would've been 2 of 3 if not for Krug invoking his NMC). Briere got the 21st overall and the only other pick that moved was 31st overall). The only 2024 first round picks that have moved since Briere took over were for DeBrincat and Karlsson. It goes without saying, but these are players the caliber of which we do not currently have on our roster. And even those two deals were deals where most analysts view the buyers as having won.

Teams have been extraordinarily stingy with their picks this offseason. It's actually been a trend for a number of years now. The deadline is the preferred time for NHL GMs to make acquisitions. Fringe contenders don't want to risk trading a first round pick only to miss the playoffs anyway and top teams often believe they don't need more firepower at the expense of their first round pick (until proven otherwise during the season). Trading at the deadline minimizes their risk.

Now if we had an unhappy ticking timebomb like DeBrincat or Karlsson, perhaps we would've been forced to just take what we could get. But TK and Laughton are not unhappy, they are signed for multiple years to reasonable deals and as a rebuilding team, we have the benefit of time. There was no reason to force ourselves to trade in a buyer's market.

He's definitely a prime trade candidate. He's also at an age where he could absolutely be one of the vets leading the team as you become a playoff/cup contender. In the right deal? Absolutely move him. If that offer doesn't come and TK backs up his production from last year? I have no problem keeping him. The process absolutely matters. If we keep him cause he's a Torts guy and for culture, you're right that's awful. If we keep him because we think his production is worth more than the offers we're getting, that's fine. No rebuilding team dumps every player. Think Carolina keeping Staal.


That's fair. And agreed 1000% on Laughton. He needs to be gone at the deadline and if he isn't, that's a failure. But again, the deadline was always the time to expect Laughton to be moved. It's when teams are most willing to deal their picks, and it's when Laughton's contract is most valuable.

Provo wanted out along with a few others but so far he is the only one that got his wish . There is another D and I am sure lots on here knows who it is and one forward from what I was told .

I,m not sure how this happens cause I,m told most all love Tort,s and he is not the A hole he appears to be . He a sheep in wolf,s clothing .

 

[Beef Invictus]

What makes anyone think this team would even want to trade Ristolainen?

They do not