2023-24 Roster Thread 2: The Days Get Longer Edition

[deadhead]

How are they going to work in younger players after the deadline?

Ideally all of Walker, Staal and Seeler should be gone to make way, but do we really believe they will do it? I bet they keep Seeler (or extend him)

Andrae should be getting a real shot, but are they going to run with 8 d?

Forward wise, where is Brink or someone else fitting in? Maybe if Poehling is traded at the deadline, Desnoyers can be 4C, but it is neither optimal F or D prospect development

(I am assuming Foerster is 3rw and Hathaway 4 rw)

Between injuries, trades, players forcing their way into/out of the lineup with their play, these things tend to take care of themselves.
Seeler isn't going to block a young D-man who is dominating the AHL/SHL come April.

The funniest thing is the same people who want to tank complain about playing worse veterans over better prospects.
Cognitive dissonance much?
I have seen little evidence that marinating a player in the AHL for an extra half or full season has hurt any player's development, however, there are numerous players who floundered for years (and sometimes a career) b/c they were rushed to the NHL.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Between injuries, trades, players forcing their way into/out of the lineup with their play, these things tend to take care of themselves.
Seeler isn't going to block a young D-man who is dominating the AHL/SHL come April.

The funniest thing is the same people who want to tank complain about playing worse veterans over better prospects.
Cognitive dissonance much?
I have seen little evidence that marinating a player in the AHL for an extra half or full season has hurt any player's development, however, there are numerous players who floundered for years (and sometimes a career) b/c they were rushed to the NHL.

There isn't any chance of anyone forcing their way into the lineup. Please act like you've watched this team at least a little.

Playing the youth and finding out what they are is how you rebuild. If we are having the rebuild and youth movement you claim we are (annually), you should be on the rooftops howling in rage at all these useless veterans. Cognitive dissonance, much?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The funniest thing is the same people who want to tank complain about playing worse veterans over better prospects.
Cognitive dissonance much?

I'm going to both agree and disagree with you here. I get what you're saying and there is some truth to it, but I disagree on exactly what tanking is and isn't. I don't ever want players trying to lose. This is why I always push back against comparing generic tanking with the Process Sixers.

Sam Hinkie told you exactly what he was doing. He wanted to win games. He didn't want to win games on the backs of anyone but their young players. If Desnoyers or Lycksell or Zamula or anyone else comes in and turns into more than a depth piece, Wins that spring out of that are good. Period. Your franchise is making progress towards a reasonable goal. If Garnet Hathaway gives me 1 WAR and I'm not trading him because he has another year to go, what have I gained besides meaningless standing points?

I'm not saying everyone. Lord knows every opinion is held. But trust some people to understand this difference even if it's not spelled out in every post they make.

 

[mja]

I'm going to both agree and disagree with you here. I get what you're saying and there is some truth to it, but I disagree on exactly what tanking is and isn't. I don't ever want players trying to lose. This is why I always push back against comparing generic tanking with the Process Sixers.

Sam Hinkie told you exactly what he was doing. He wanted to win games. He didn't want to win games on the backs of anyone but their young players. If Desnoyers or Lycksell or Zamula or anyone else comes in and turns into more than a depth piece, Wins that spring out of that are good. Period. Your franchise is making progress towards a reasonable goal. If Garnet Hathaway gives me 1 WAR and I'm not trading him because he has another year to go, what have I gained besides meaningless standing points?

I'm not saying everyone. Lord knows every opinion is held. But trust some people to understand this difference even if it's not spelled out in every post they make.

 

[deadhead]

I'm going to both agree and disagree with you here. I get what you're saying and there is some truth to it, but I disagree on exactly what tanking is and isn't. I don't ever want players trying to lose. This is why I always push back against comparing generic tanking with the Process Sixers.

Sam Hinkie told you exactly what he was doing. He wanted to win games. He didn't want to win games on the backs of anyone but their young players. If Desnoyers or Lycksell or Zamula or anyone else comes in and turns into more than a depth piece, Wins that spring out of that are good. Period. Your franchise is making progress towards a reasonable goal. If Garnet Hathaway gives me 1 WAR and I'm not trading him because he has another year to go, what have I gained besides meaningless standing points?

I'm not saying everyone. Lord knows every opinion is held. But trust some people to understand this difference even if it's not spelled out in every post they make.

I think having players marinate in the AHL until they're ready for a regular role in the NHL is the prudent development path.
There are only a few players who are talented enough to overcome their lack of experience as they learn in the NHL - and being overmatched can crush a lot of players' confidence.

Now I have no worries about Foerster, he needs to work on his skating some more, but otherwise he has all the tools to succeed.
Zamula needs to play regularly in the NHL, he looks confident and has added strength and worked on his game.
Attard is still a work in progress, but at 24 needs to be challenged.

Lycksell is more iffy, he put up nice numbers in the AHL but never jumped out at me, I think he'd have to be sheltered in a NHL role to start.

Desnoyers showed nice improvement in his first AHL season, but size/speed considerations leave me agnostic at this point in his career, he has the experience to start on the 4th line (has played that role at every level), but might develop faster in the top six in LHV. He's only 21, so no rush.

Brink is tough, there are some physical limitations, he was coming off a bad injury, but I think he's a decision he makes on the ice, he may need time to deal with bigger, faster players, He made a big jump from freshman to junior in college, I can see him doing the same in the AHL this season and forcing his way to Philly.

Grans, Wisdom, Samson, Avon bear watching but aren't close to NHL ready.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think having players marinate in the AHL until they're ready for a regular role in the NHL is the prudent development path.
There are only a few players who are talented enough to overcome their lack of experience as they learn in the NHL - and being overmatched can crush a lot of players' confidence.

Now I have no worries about Foerster, he needs to work on his skating some more, but otherwise he has all the tools to succeed.
Zamula needs to play regularly in the NHL, he looks confident and has added strength and worked on his game.
Attard is still a work in progress, but at 24 needs to be challenged.

Lycksell is more iffy, he put up nice numbers in the AHL but never jumped out at me, I think he'd have to be sheltered in a NHL role to start.

Desnoyers showed nice improvement in his first AHL season, but size/speed considerations leave me agnostic at this point in his career, he has the experience to start on the 4th line (has played that role at every level), but might develop faster in the top six in LHV. He's only 21, so no rush.

Brink is tough, there are some physical limitations, he was coming off a bad injury, but I think he's a decision he makes on the ice, he may need time to deal with bigger, faster players, He made a big jump from freshman to junior in college, I can see him doing the same in the AHL this season and forcing his way to Philly.

Grans, Wisdom, Samson, Avon bear watching but aren't close to NHL ready.

The Flyers never let young players prove they can be NHL players unless it's so shockingly obvious it cannot be ignored anymore.

Pretending they're doing what you say they're doing is delusion.

 

[mja]

The Flyers never let young players prove they can be NHL players unless it's so shockingly obvious it cannot be ignored anymore.

Pretending they're doing what you say they're doing is delusion.

Or there have to be a boatload of injuries. "Merely" being obviously better than the plugs they keep brining to play ahead of them in isn't enough.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I think having players marinate in the AHL until they're ready for a regular role in the NHL is the prudent development path.
There are only a few players who are talented enough to overcome their lack of experience as they learn in the NHL - and being overmatched can crush a lot of players' confidence.

That is a risk. It is real. It does happen.

But mostly I read this paragraph and think how it means Tortorella has absolutely no business coaching a rebuild. You can deal with these situations if your coach is emotionally mature. Hell, you can position your entire org to deal with these eventualities with proper planning. You can build support structures that exist at all levels of play so that players always know they have something to fall back on when needed. So they know where to go with these problems. So they're comfortable dealing with them and know it won't be held against them.

Alas, the Flyers are selling buzzwords and 17 cent ramen noodle prepackaged cliches in sweater vests.

 

[deadhead]

Thing is, Torts has a good track record working with young players, his biggest critics have been veterans he benched or demoted.
Frost, Tippett, York all blossomed last year, Shaw even got Risto to develop some fundamentals.

I think it's easier for him to coach young players, once they see that "playing the right" way works, they often buy in.

The older players are often set in their ways and resent being pushed, especially on losing teams where players get the mindset that they're playing for stats since the season is a lost cause and don't like being asked to work hard on defense.

Torts is not AV, who pretty much had his favorites, and if you were in his doghouse, there was little chance of getting out.
Torts gives players multiple chances, you get benched, you respond positively and your PT goes up.
Now, could he use a little "Dale Carnegie?" Sure.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

Yes the youth will play if they earn it and after the deadline just like last season.

This is the same story

 

[Striiker]

The problem is when the Flyers make tank-helping moves, they’re not doing it on purpose. They’re just stupid. That why people complain about it.

When an idiot like Torts plays a dogshit vet over a superior kid, it isn’t because he wants a better draft pick, it’s because he’s in love with shit players and can’t comprehend that he’s doing something wrong. So even after the “rebuild” is over and the roster is good enough to compete (lol, as if), he’s still going to be the same clueless asshole who accidentally tanks.

Same thing with all of Fletchers moves. He wasn’t trying to tank (even though that was clearly the result), he was desperately trying to win.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Thing is, Torts has a good track record working with young players, his biggest critics have been veterans he benched or demoted.
Frost, Tippett, York all blossomed last year, Shaw even got Risto to develop some fundamentals.

I think it's easier for him to coach young players, once they see that "playing the right" way works, they often buy in.

The older players are often set in their ways and resent being pushed, especially on losing teams where players get the mindset that they're playing for stats since the season is a lost cause and don't like being asked to work hard on defense.

Torts is not AV, who pretty much had his favorites, and if you were in his doghouse, there was little chance of getting out.
Torts gives players multiple chances, you get benched, you respond positively and your PT goes up.
Now, could he use a little "Dale Carnegie?" Sure.

No he doesn't work well with young players. Tortorella himself is the first to tell you he doesn't. In fact, he refused to work with them and players affirm that was true. All these veterans they're signing to avoid playing youth? Tortorella loves that, they fit exactly what he said the team needs.

We are fully in your annual fan fiction season.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I can’t definitively say who dislikes him the most because I recognize I have no access to that kind of information. Speculation is flat out fiction.

But I can say hockey culture is such that young players almost never speak out publicly. Remember how quickly Farabee got smacked? And he didn’t even say anything?

 

[Striiker]

No he doesn't work well with young players. Tortorella himself is the first to tell you he doesn't. In fact, he refused to work with them and players affirm that was true. All these veterans they're signing to avoid playing youth? Tortorella loves that, they fit exactly what he said the team needs.

We are fully in your annual fan fiction season.

The most likable coaches bench players in their hometowns and refuse to say why, then lie and say they didn’t know.

Nothing makes a young player respect the coach like being targeted and punished for no reason.

 

[TB87]

Anyone else thoroughly underwhelmed by Briere’s tenure as GM so far? The only real “rebuilding move” was trading Provorov.


Positioning themselves to be as bad as possible for a few seasons by trading Laughton, Konecny, & Sanheim (accepting whatever for him because the bonus of subtracting him is the cap space savings) are all things that could’ve been done to facilitate a genuine rebuild. This is a half-assed rebuild at best so far.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Anyone else thoroughly underwhelmed by Briere’s tenure as GM so far? The only real “rebuilding move” was trading Provorov.


Positioning themselves to be as bad as possible for a few seasons by trading Laughton, Konecny, & Sanheim (accepting whatever for him because the bonus of subtracting him is the cap space savings) are all things that could’ve been done to facilitate a genuine rebuild. This is a half-assed rebuild at best so far.

sameasiteverwas...

 

[ajgoal]

I can’t definitively say who dislikes him the most because I recognize I have no access to that kind of information. Speculation is flat out fiction.

But I can say hockey culture is such that young players almost never speak out publicly. Remember how quickly Farabee got smacked? And he didn’t even say anything?

I missed this.

 

[ajgoal]

Anyone else thoroughly underwhelmed by Briere’s tenure as GM so far? The only real “rebuilding move” was trading Provorov.


Positioning themselves to be as bad as possible for a few seasons by trading Laughton, Konecny, & Sanheim (accepting whatever for him because the bonus of subtracting him is the cap space savings) are all things that could’ve been done to facilitate a genuine rebuild. This is a half-assed rebuild at best so far.

To be fair, Friedman (I think?) said that the Flyers were trying to give Sanheim away after Krug nixed the deal with St. Louis and got nowhere with it. It's absolutely possible that nobody's biting on him no matter what the price. I also don't think they should trade TK if they're not getting at least fair value for him. Laughton should have been gone before Armstrong finished his pitch.

 

[trostol]

if kids aren't playing til April then things have gone off the rails wrong

 

[Curufinwe]

Getting rid of your top scoring dman and your 2nd leading scorer are also rebuilding moves, even if they were made necessary by the coach wanting them gone.

So far 4 of last season's top 10 scorers have left.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

And in terms of TOI, the #1, #3, and #6 players have left, among others.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

1. Provorov
3. Angelo
6. Hayes
14. JVR
17. Braun
18. MacEwen
19. Brown
20. Sedlak
22. Bellows
23. Lemieux

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I missed this.

Flyers' Tortorella says Farabee's agent should 'shut up' amid report of displeasure

While speaking to reporters Friday, Tortorella responded to a report from Daily Faceoff's Frank Seravalli that Philadelphia forward Joel Farabee's camp "has voiced their displeasure to the Flyers as to how this season has unfolded" under his stewardship.

www.sportsnet.ca

 

[ajgoal]

Flyers' Tortorella says Farabee's agent should 'shut up' amid report of displeasure

While speaking to reporters Friday, Tortorella responded to a report from Daily Faceoff's Frank Seravalli that Philadelphia forward Joel Farabee's camp "has voiced their displeasure to the Flyers as to how this season has unfolded" under his stewardship.

www.sportsnet.ca

I used to live a life of violence. He makes wanting not to punch another person in the face very difficult.

 

[Larry44]

I used to live a life of violence. He makes wanting not to punch another person in the face very difficult.

I can't believe they are keeping Torturella around. So sad.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I can't believe they are keeping Torturella around. So sad.

I can. The NHL in general is often a place where common sense doesn’t prevail. The league has its own bubble of bad thoughts & ideas. Then there’s the Flyers in their own bubble amongst that bubble. The Flyers run their team based off emotion. Every decision comes to that. It’s always why they’re continually behind the curve.

So Comcast/Hilferty are just as memorized by Tortorella when he goes out there slinging cliches about hard work & accountability as the knuckle draggers are.

 

[deadhead]

Meh, Torts was walking a fine line, on the one hand he acknowledged the injury and its impact, on the other hand he doesn't want a young player to use it as an excuse and just give up on the season. And given Farabee was on a nice long-term contract, the agent should have kept this in-house.