2023-24 Roster Thread 1: Entering the Starting Gate

[LegionOfDoom91]

Bottom 3 ownership in the league.

I like their wallets but they really are as incompetent as their cable/internet service suggests.

 

[Starat327]

Bottom 3 ownership in the league.

Being generous.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

Listening to the most recent BSH podcast Charlie said one reason the Flyers didn’t/won’t interview other candidates for the GM job is that Briere was acceptant of inheriting Tortorella as HC. As where other candidates likely wouldn’t be.

It came up in an overall discussion about the power dynamic between Briere & Tortorella going forward. Charlie said it’s a valid concern & one he has as well, given that Tortorella is a know political animal behind the scenes then you have an organization that’s given him more say/power than head coaches typically receive already on top of Briere being a first time GM.

Tulsky was brought up but Charlie thinks even if they were doing an open GM search the Flyers wouldn’t consider him as Tortorella would just walk all over him.

Winning formula right there. Doomed for another 5 years of dysfunction and incompetence

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Winning formula right there. Doomed for another 5 years of dysfunction and incompetence

wait till Torts assembles his dream team of grinders and muckers and then oddly it completly fails in this modern NHL.

#Darkesttimeline

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Torts it the one who convinced ownership to accept a rebuild.

Torts has consistently said since day 1 that this is not a quick fix, will be a process, and they cannot skip any steps to try to fast-track it.

He has said repeatedly that the team is not ready to sign any big name veteran free agents.

He keeps talking about how the Flyers need to subtract some veterans from the roster.

He has mentioned multiple times that he wants to be even younger and hopes more young players push out vets for roster spots next season.

I'm not sure how anyone who has followed the team could think Tortorella is against a true rebuild.

The only way someone could question this is if they think intentional, all-out tanking and trading everyone is the only way to rebuild.

Flyers don’t have the core players to do a retool around. Most Stanley Cup winners in recent memory have multiple top 5 picks on them. Flyers need that game breaking talent that is easiest to find in the top of the draft. I’m not down at all with another 10 years of spinning the wheels. Bottom out and they have a better chance to get that talent. Worst case scenario if tanking fails is that they are still at the bottom. Eventually they would luck into best in the league type players (I would hope). If Torts and Briere want to do the same old, that’s fine by me. I had a lot more valuable free time by not watching them this year and I was less emotional because I didn’t care. If the Flyers are cool with losing fans because of incompetence, that’s on them

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Never. This is the path of failure. They are the Commanders, allowing the same people to repeatedly fail via different obviously stupid paths.

They're zigging when everyone else zags. They've identified a market inefficiency!

Who among us hasn't thought, "What if some org actually had the balls to take the most fungible part of a hockey team and give him the most power?"

 

[Starat327]

They're zigging when everyone else zags. They've identified a market inefficiency!

Who among us hasn't thought, "What if some org actually had the balls to take the most fungible part of a hockey team and give him the most power?"

While doing it with a terrible funigible part, to boot. They're basically giving the keys of a Ferrari to a guy they've been watching down 40s of Steel Reserve for the past 3 hours.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Can't trade Player X because Pick Y is unlikely to be as good as Player X is the worst fan philosophy in sports. Half the league wouldn't get traded if there wasn't value in trading a (near) expiring contract for potentially 7+ cost controlled prime years. And that can be exponential if you negotiate a good return. Sometimes you trade Schenn for two young middle 6 players. It's not all that hard to get surplus value, especially when you have no path to contention in the near future with the player(s) in question.

Listening to the most recent BSH podcast Charlie said one reason the Flyers didn’t/won’t interview other candidates for the GM job is that Briere was acceptant of inheriting Tortorella as HC. As where other candidates likely wouldn’t be.

It came up in an overall discussion about the power dynamic between Briere & Tortorella going forward. Charlie said it’s a valid concern & one he has as well, given that Tortorella is a know political animal behind the scenes then you have an organization that’s given him more say/power than head coaches typically receive already on top of Briere being a first time GM.

Tulsky was brought up but Charlie thinks even if they were doing an open GM search the Flyers wouldn’t consider him as Tortorella would just walk all over him.

Just what you want. Your aged-out coach influencing big picture stuff. Good job. Good effort.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Flyers don’t have the core players to do a retool around. Most Stanley Cup winners in recent memory have multiple top 5 picks on them. Flyers need that game breaking talent that is easiest to find in the top of the draft. I’m not down at all with another 10 years of spinning the wheels. Bottom out and they have a better chance to get that talent. Worst case scenario if tanking fails is that they are still at the bottom. Eventually they would luck into best in the league type players (I would hope). If Torts and Briere want to do the same old, that’s fine by me. I had a lot more valuable free time by not watching them this year and I was less emotional because I didn’t care. If the Flyers are cool with losing fans because of incompetence, that’s on them

Then you aren't asking if Torts wants to rebuild. You are asking if he wants to intentionally lose as many games as possible in an effort to get more lottery balls.

He wants to rebuild. But his idea of a rebuild is to instill hard-working, winning habits that will pay off as talent grows and accrues. Not to encourage losing.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Can't trade Player X because Pick Y is unlikely to be as good as Player X is the worst fan philosophy in sports. Half the league wouldn't get traded if there wasn't value in trading a (near) expiring contract for potentially 7+ cost controlled prime years. And that can be exponential if you negotiate a good return. Sometimes you trade Schenn for two young middle 6 players. It's not all that hard to get surplus value, especially when you have no path to contention in the near future with the player(s) in question.



Just what you want. Your aged-out coach influencing big picture stuff. Good job. Good effort.

Toronto traded Kessel at 28 years old. He was obviously already signed under his big UFA deal. But the best thing they ultimately yielded from that deal player wise was Kapenen & it still was worth while for them. They cleared the majority of the contract off the books & they made their team worse in the short term putting themselves more into the lottery. Obviously you need some luck which they got but you replaced him & some by playing the lottery.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Then you aren't asking if Torts wants to rebuild. You are asking if he wants to intentionally lose as many games as possible in an effort to get more lottery balls.

He wants to rebuild. But his idea of a rebuild is to instill hard-working, winning habits that will pay off as talent grows and accrues. Not to encourage losing.

So who is this retool going to be around? Who on the team is a centerpiece of a cup team? You know how you have a good culture? By winning and contending. You know how you win and contend? By having top talent in the league to build around. You know how you get top talent to build around? By drafting high.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

So who is this retool going to be around? Who on the team is a centerpiece of a cup team? You know how you have a good culture? By winning and contending. You know how you win and contend? By having top talent in the league to build around. You know how you get top talent to build around? By drafting high.

I don't know. Let's see what happens with the draft this year.

Who is Arizona's rebuild going to be around? They are the lowest-salary team in the league. They supposedly were tanking. They have a whopping 1% difference in lottery odds vs. the Flyers this year.

Who ended up better when the Flyers got Nolan Patrick at 2 overall? The Flyers or the teams with the next 3 picks, Heiskanen, Makar, and Pettersson?

And did the Flyers tank to get that 2nd overall, or did they hit on a 2.5% lottery chance?

The latter.

Too many people A) Completely ignore the impact of the lottery; and B) Completely ignore that there are many bad teams in the league and even if you try to tank you could still end up with lottery odds minimally different from what the Flyers have right now.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

I don't know. Let's see what happens with the draft this year.

Who is Arizona's rebuild going to be around? They are the lowest-salary team in the league. They supposedly were tanking. They have a whopping 1% difference in lottery odds vs. the Flyers this year.

Who ended up better when the Flyers got Nolan Patrick at 2 overall? The Flyers or the teams with the next 3 picks, Heiskanen, Makar, and Pettersson?

And did the Flyers tank to get that 2nd overall, or did they hit on a 2.5% lottery chance?

The latter.

Too many people A) Completely ignore the impact of the lottery; and B) Completely ignore that there are many bad teams in the league and even if you try to tank you could still end up with lottery odds minimally different from what the Flyers have right now.

If the Flyers are being compared to Arizona, that tells you we are f***ed. I wouldn’t be surprised if Arizona is better than the Flyers in 5 years. Especially if they get Bedard.Patrick was a bust. It happens. Makar and the others you listed were all top 5 picks. Those are the types of guys I’m saying the Flyers need to get.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

If the Flyers are being compared to Arizona, that tells you we are f***ed. I wouldn’t be surprised if Arizona is better than the Flyers in 5 years. Especially if they get Bedard.Patrick was a bust. It happens. Makar and the others you listed were all top 5 picks. Those are the types of guys I’m saying the Flyers need to get.

Arizona finished 6th from last. The Flyers finished 7th from last. Their lottery odds this year are virtually identical. AZ has a 7.5% chance at Bedard. The Flyers have a 6.5% chance at Bedard.

So much of this boils down to luck because of the lottery, and because there are many other bad teams in the league.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

I feel like having to put the Flyers head to head with a team that may fold doesn’t help your case. Even so, Cooley (and most likely Benson or Smith) is better than anything we have. Flyers have to have one of the bleakest futures in the league. Every team that tanked in recent memory is in a better position than we are

 

[FLYguy3911]

You vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about.

 

[tucson83]

Arizona finished 6th from last. The Flyers finished 7th from last. Their lottery odds this year are virtually identical. AZ has a 7.5% chance at Bedard. The Flyers have a 6.5% chance at Bedard.

So much of this boils down to luck because of the lottery, and because there are many other bad teams in the league.

they just simply are ignoring the positions that are important when it comes to making the playoffs and advancing, boston is killing florida because they lost ekblad, kings are beating the oilers because they have no defenseman, for some reason if we get bedard, we are cup favorites, highly doubt it, our defense and goaltending isnt getting it done, if they shut bedard and our defense and goaltending is the same as this year, wont make a difference.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

they just simply are ignoring the positions that are important when it comes to making the playoffs and advancing, boston is killing florida because they lost ekblad, kings are beating the oilers because they have no defenseman, for some reason if we get bedard, we are cup favorites, highly doubt it, our defense and goaltending isnt getting it done, if they shut bedard and our defense and goaltending is the same as this year, wont make a difference.

Sommmmmmmmmmermannnnnnn, is that you?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I feel like having to put the Flyers head to head with a team that may fold doesn’t help your case. Even so, Cooley (and most likely Benson or Smith) is better than anything we have. Flyers have to have one of the bleakest futures in the league. Every team that tanked in recent memory is in a better position than we are

You are missing my point completely. The franchise location and "folding" status are completely irrelevant.

Arizona is a team with a gutted roster that everyone classified as intentionally tanking for Bedard.

*Exactly* what you are arguing the Flyers need to be, but aren't.

Yet Arizona finished 6th from last. The Flyers 7th from last. There is a whopping 1% difference in their lottery odds.

Point being, to reiterate: Too many people A) Completely ignore the impact of the lottery; and B) Completely ignore that there are many bad teams in the league and even if you try to tank you could still end up with lottery odds minimally different from what the Flyers have right now.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

You are missing my point completely. The franchise location and "folding" status are completely irrelevant.

Arizona is a team with a gutted roster that everyone classified as intentionally tanking for Bedard.

*Exactly* what you are arguing the Flyers need to be, but aren't.

Yet Arizona finished 6th from last. The Flyers 7th from last. There is a whopping 1% difference in their lottery odds.

Point being, to reiterate: Too many people A) Completely ignore the impact of the lottery; and B) Completely ignore that there are many bad teams in the league and even if you try to tank you could still end up with lottery odds minimally different from what the Flyers have right now.

It's not *just* about the lottery and bedard, bruh

 

[Ghosts Beer]

It's not *just* about the lottery and bedard, bruh

His argument was they must tank for a "centerpiece."

 

[Gregor Samsa]

You are missing my point completely. The franchise location and "folding" status are completely irrelevant.

Arizona is a team with a gutted roster that everyone classified as intentionally tanking for Bedard.

*Exactly* what you are arguing the Flyers need to be, but aren't.

Yet Arizona finished 6th from last. The Flyers 7th from last. There is a whopping 1% difference in their lottery odds.

Point being, to reiterate: Too many people A) Completely ignore the impact of the lottery; and B) Completely ignore that there are many bad teams in the league and even if you try to tank you could still end up with lottery odds minimally different from what the Flyers have right now.

If the Flyers are this bad when trying to compete, then by selling a couple good players they should be cleanly in the bottom 5. I would also say Arizona’s future is much brighter than the Flyers even if they are struggling to exist. Crazy isn’t it? As the poster below said, it’s not just about Bedard. You need a few years of dragging the bottom to accumulate blue chippers. I don’t know what you have against tanking. It isn’t losing just to lose and get high picks. You are also testing out young players who wouldn’t get as good of a shot otherwise and seeing if you have anything to work with in them. If the Flyers are going to be a bad team anyway, it would be better if they were a really bad team so they could get higher picks, more picks and prospects from trading good veteran players, and evaluating prospects.

 

[flyers0909]

they just simply are ignoring the positions that are important when it comes to making the playoffs and advancing, boston is killing florida because they lost ekblad, kings are beating the oilers because they have no defenseman, for some reason if we get bedard, we are cup favorites, highly doubt it, our defense and goaltending isnt getting it done, if they shut bedard and our defense and goaltending is the same as this year, wont make a difference.

Great post.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

His argument was they must tank for a "centerpiece."

I believe you need a 1c and 1d. I believe you need a franchise player to win a cup, aka a guy who will go into the HHOF and possibly have his number retired by the team. I believe you have the best chance at getting a bonafide 1c, 1d, or franchise player at the top of the draft. Can you get a Pasternak late in round one or a Robertson in round 2? Of course you can. I just think the odds of getting those types of players is much better at the top of the draft. Not trying to be an ass, but do you not think that the best talent GENERALLY is to be had at the top of the draft?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Winning formula right there. Doomed for another 5 years of dysfunction and incompetence

Yeah. 4-5 years away from being 8-10 years away.