Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[Hangemhigh]

There should be a complain about GM thread instead.

I don't remember 2014 at all. Sorry. Wasn't that a lockout year?

Selanne was making $10M. Nolan's $6M contract included clause he had to be highest paid player. So Nolan's contract required $4M raise. But no, because Anaheiny is paying $4M so you don't get the raise. This pissed off Nolan. If he disputes, team maybe will trade him. Plus they both are RW with Damphousse being the only center. And buddy LW Friesen was traded. This garbage all happened because of Dumbardi. Selanne was innocent bystander.

By signing I mean not letting Nolan, or Friesen, or Nabby, or whoever wait months for a contract so the player gets into camp and performs at their best. Dumbardi had holdouts waiting for a contract every year, probably. Other GMs didn't have this problem.

DW was a good GM, but everything was downhill after the Thornton trade. DW performance isn't really relevant. Although he didn't have trouble signing players, so the problem was Dumbardi.

Kiprusoff didn't want to be a Shark after the locker room problems that got Dumbardi fired. Sutter got him cheap.

I have no idea when Hasso became part owner. But Germans seemed to start showing up in the draft.

Trades happening after the arrival of Sutter would be Sutter bringing in his type of players. So the theme is Dumbardi is a terrible GM without Sutter being involved. Citing a trade after Sutter would be irrelevant.

I don't know how much Dumbardi was involved in late round picks. These are low value so it was probably on one scout. The first round one are probably the best measure as multiple scouts were probably on the player and the GM would evaluate all the scouts assessments and make a final judgment.

If there were some good players Dumbardi got while working for Philly that would be notable as he was alone. Or some good deals he got without Sutter in LA or SJ. But the theme is Dumbardi is a dumbass, but Sutter makes him look normal. Dumbardi did not build any good teams. LA had core pieces already, Sutter put the framework of what kind of team he wanted in all cases. They were similar to the teams he built in Chicago and Calgary.

 

[tiburon12]

Rangers are already set at center, so I doubt they'd target him.

Boston I could see giving up a '24 1st, '24 2nd + prospect + Grzelcyk for him.

The Rangers are actively looking for a center or two, per 32 Thoughts, specifically they are looking at Monahan and Lindholm. With Chytil maybe never playing again they need somebody to move the needle now and in the future and Hertl is cost controlled.

 

[OrrNumber4]

That's all Lindholm got?

 

[Hodge]

That's all Lindholm got?

It's wild. Either Calgary got fleeced or the league just doesn't value Lindholm very highly. Either way, why would you make this trade over a month out from the deadline if you're the Flames? You'd think the offers will only improve.

 

[OrrNumber4]

It's wild. Either Calgary got fleeced or the league just doesn't value Lindholm very highly. Either way, why would you make this trade over a month out from the deadline if you're the Flames? You'd think the offers will only improve.

You have to assume that Conroy is doing what he thinks is best. Maybe he wants to start the tank now. Maybe the Lindholm situation was disrupting the locker room. Or maybe this was the best offer he got and he didn't think it'd get much better.

 

[one2gamble]

I don't know, I wasn't really expecting more. Maybe a 2nd instead of the 4th. Times are weird.

 

[Hodge]

You have to assume that Conroy is doing what he thinks is best. Maybe he wants to start the tank now. Maybe the Lindholm situation was disrupting the locker room. Or maybe this was the best offer he got and he didn't think it'd get much better.

If I was a Flames fan I would be deeply concerned Conroy pulled the trigger because he views Kuzmenko, a one-year SH% fluke who is now grossly overpaid through next season, as an asset instead of a liability. It's also weird that they didn't retain any salary to improve the return.

Fantastic move for the Canucks though. A decade of mismanagement has backed them into a corner where this year might be their only shot at a Cup in the Pettersson/Hughes/Demko era (Pettersson and Hronek's contracts are up) but Rutherford is experienced enough to know that means they absolutely need to go all in. I'm sure they'll bring in a top 4 D now too.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I’m genuinely curious what Lindholm will get as a UFA.

 

[hohosaregood]

I don't think Lindholm is THAT good. Feel like Calgary got a solid haul here. A 1st, a plus roster player, and a B/B+ prospect for a pending UFA is nothing to sneeze at

 

[Hodge]

I don't think Lindholm is THAT good. Feel like Calgary got a solid haul here. A 1st, a plus roster player, and a B/B+ prospect for a pending UFA is nothing to sneeze at

The problem is Kuzmenko is a cap dump the Canucks should have had to attach picks to trade, not a positive value asset. Whether Conroy realizes this is unclear but maybe the conditional 3rd/4th was the cost of dumping him.

 

[Gecklund]

That's all Lindholm got?

That was a f***ing fleece by CGY. Kuzmenko had 74 points last year. Brz is leading the OHL (I think it is) in points as a D. And a first on top of that? f***ing fleece.

 

[OrrNumber4]

That was a f***ing fleece by CGY. Kuzmenko had 74 points last year. Brz is leading the OHL (I think it is) in points as a D. And a first on top of that? f***ing fleece.

Ah, I didn't realize Brzustewicz was such a good prospect. Perhaps that was the lynchpin for Calgary.

 

[Gecklund]

Ah, I didn't realize Brzustewicz was such a good prospect. Perhaps that was the lynchpin for Calgary.

He’s got some skating concerns but I haven’t really seen it. He’s really broken out this year points wise. I think Nucks did well to not include Lekkerimaki but Brz was not a throw in prospect.

Doesn’t help that I don’t like Lindholm much. Think he’s a good 2C that got overvalued cause of the years he got propped up by Tkachuk and Gaudreau.

 

[timorous me]

Ah, I didn't realize Brzustewicz was such a good prospect. Perhaps that was the lynchpin for Calgary.

He sounds like a slightly bigger (but maybe not stronger) version of Cagnoni. Scouts are mixed on if he'll be able to cut it in the NHL. So yeah, question marks and maybe the Canucks sold high on him.

 

[gaucholoco3]

This makes the Meier return look that much better.

 

[tiburon12]

That was a f***ing fleece by CGY. Kuzmenko had 74 points last year. Brz is leading the OHL (I think it is) in points as a D. And a first on top of that? f***ing fleece.

You think so? I think Kuzmenko has negative value based on his contract

 

[LadyStanley]

Both Sharks and Ducks are probably sellers for TDL.

 

[Hodge]

You think so? I think Kuzmenko has negative value based on his contract

He absolutely does and Brzsutewicz was a 3rd round pick six months ago he's not a good prospect

 

[tiburon12]

He absolutely does and Brzsutewicz was a 3rd round pick six months ago he's not a good prospect

Yea I'm feeling more that VAN wins this in a landslide right now. Upgrade kuzmenko for a first and throw-ins and have 5M+ for next year

 

[Hodge]

Yea I'm feeling more that VAN wins this in a landslide right now. Upgrade kuzmenko for a first and throw-ins and have 5M+ for next year

It's an amazing trade for them. They acquire the exact piece they needed, clear $5.5M in cap space next year by subtracting a useless player and they prevent Colorado and Winnipeg from acquiring Lindholm to boot. All that and by far the most valuable asset headed out the door is a pick currently on track to be 28th overall.

 

[Gecklund]

He absolutely does and Brzsutewicz was a 3rd round pick six months ago he's not a good prospect

Cagnoni was a 5th round pick. Is he not a good prospect?

 

[Hodge]

Cagnoni was a 5th round pick. Is he not a good prospect?

Not really, no. Certainly not a prospect who should be an acceptable centerpiece of a trade return for a legit do-it-all 1C like Lindholm even if he is a pending UFA.

 

[Gecklund]

Not really, no. Certainly not a prospect who should be an acceptable centerpiece of a trade return for a legit do-it-all 1C like Lindholm even if he is a pending UFA.

Lindholm has been awful this year and is not a legit 1C. He’s a high end 2C. I’m not sure what more you want from Brz who has been stellar this year. He has minor skating concerns but I’ve watched him a good amount and those concerns are way overblown.

 

[Hodge]

Lindholm has been awful this year and is not a legit 1C. He’s a high end 2C. I’m not sure what more you want from Brz who has been stellar this year. He has minor skating concerns but I’ve watched him a good amount and those concerns are way overblown.

Everyone on the Flames has been awful this year. For the past 5+ years Lindholm has been in that Hertl/Couture range of low end 1Cs. If you want to call him a high end 2C I won't argue but that's still an extremely valuable piece and exactly what the Canucks were missing. To acquire that AND dump Kuzmenko for this year and next while giving up nothing more valuable than a likely 25th+ overall pick in a reportedly shallow draft is larceny.

Who knows what went on behind the scenes but it feels like Conroy seriously misplayed this. There should have been an all-out bidding war between Vancouver, Colorado and Winnipeg. Who is the next best center even available at this deadline? Henrique?

 

[Gecklund]

Everyone on the Flames has been awful this year. For the past 5+ years Lindholm has been in that Hertl/Couture range of low end 1Cs. If you want to call him a high end 2C I won't argue but that's still an extremely valuable piece and exactly what the Canucks were missing. To acquire that AND dump Kuzmenko for this year and next while giving up nothing more valuable than a likely 25th+ overall pick in a reportedly shallow draft is larceny.

Who knows what went on behind the scenes but it feels like Conroy seriously misplayed this. There should have been an all-out bidding war between Vancouver, Colorado and Winnipeg. Who is the next best center even available at this deadline? Henrique?

I personally don’t think Kuzmenko is a cap dump. Again guy had 74 points last year. He was off to a good start too but then got benched because he wasn’t physical enough. If you ask Vancouver fans about Kuzmenko they will tell you he should not have been benched.

My reading on Kuzmenko has been that he is basically a better Labanc that makes quicker decisions (although that’s not a perfect comparison) which would be a top 6 player in most teams.

Again Brz is leading the OHL in points scored by a dman in his D+1. The first is obviously a plus. Who cares where it is because it would have been the same no matter what.

Yes Lindholm is valuable but it’s very weird to me that you think giving up a first, a B+ prospect in a position that is massively valued throughout the league, and a guy who scored 74 points last year is some shit package.

I guess I just thought of a better comparison from SJ for how I value that package. It’s the Timo package minus all the extra stuff. It’s a late first (Musty), a good complimentary winger (Zetterlund/Kuzmenko), and a very good D prospect (Shakir/Brz). Yes it’s missing Okhotiuk who is a good piece himself and the extra pick but also Timo was an RFA. Which it is only kind of missing the extra pick. It got downgraded a round or 2 (2nd vs 3rd/4th again conference finals success condition). This might be the homer in me but I think I’d take Timo everyday over Lindholm.