Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[Gecklund]

Does everyone wanting to trade Hertl also want to become Buffalo or Ottawa? You need quality vets around during your rebuild to help instill good habits and insulate young players.

If Hertl requests out or if someone’s giving us actual value, then that’s a different thing, but moving him just to move him is insane.

This sort of stems from it sounding like he wants out (or at least is considering it)

My thinking is that we would get back those good vets in return for Hertl. I would probably expect something similar to the EK trade but slightly better. Semi useful cap dumps, a future or two and then no retention would be my expectation.

 

[Shark Finn]

Sounds like Hertl wants out. I don't care what we get back, the only priority should be dumping the entire contract with no retention.

Where did you get this info?

 

[landshark]

Everything I can find says, "The Sharks are willing to trade Hertl, if he wants out"

I can't seem to find anything confirming that Tomas has indicated he wants out, at least nothing published as info from an interview etc.

 

[Gecklund]

Everything I can find says, "The Sharks are willing to trade Hertl, if he wants out"

I can't seem to find anything confirming that Tomas has indicated he wants out, at least nothing published as info from an interview etc.

It’s from a piece from Sheng. Basically says they’ll talk in the offseason if he wants to continue or not.

 

[landshark]

It’s from a piece from Sheng. Basically says they’ll talk in the offseason if he wants to continue or not.

Oh, yeah, I'd expect that for all the Sharks vets in the offseason while rebuilding.

 

[gaucholoco3]

Interesting proposal. Jiricek would be a terrific add.

If it turns into Hagens next year, how would we feel if Celebrini is a Shark? I can't make my mind up.

If the Sharks have Celebrini and Smith then I would be fine with the trade even if Hagens is the pick. They would need to get a 1D eventually and while one of those 3 could play wing it would diminish the value of one of them.

 

[coooldude]

Oh, yeah, I'd expect that for all the Sharks vets in the offseason while rebuilding.

To give more context, we all know that Tomas has been saying things like "I want to stay here for a long time" and signaling he's not likely to move, but a piece today/yesterday by Sheng said that Tomas said "I'll talk to Grier in the offseason about it." Exact text below.

When you parse the tone change and what he said, I also read that Tomas is very open to moving in the offseason or next season, but it's not likely to happen until after the season, and given how the draft is shaping up, I'd be surprised if it happened at the draft. That said, it now feels way more likely than it did last week.

"Will Tomas Hertl ride out the rebuild with the San Jose Sharks?

It sounds like a discussion that he will have this off-season with GM Mike Grier.

“It’s not an easy situation, where we are. We know that,” Hertl told the Mercury News. “We will see. It’s probably not [time to] talk now, but definitely, after the season, again, what [are] the plans here long-term?”

 

[Juxtaposer]

To give more context, we all know that Tomas has been saying things like "I want to stay here for a long time" and signaling he's not likely to move, but a piece today/yesterday by Sheng said that Tomas said "I'll talk to Grier in the offseason about it." Exact text below.

When you parse the tone change and what he said, I also read that Tomas is very open to moving in the offseason or next season, but it's not likely to happen until after the season, and given how the draft is shaping up, I'd be surprised if it happened at the draft. That said, it now feels way more likely than it did last week.

"Will Tomas Hertl ride out the rebuild with the San Jose Sharks?

It sounds like a discussion that he will have this off-season with GM Mike Grier.

“It’s not an easy situation, where we are. We know that,” Hertl told the Mercury News. “We will see. It’s probably not [time to] talk now, but definitely, after the season, again, what [are] the plans here long-term?”

That’s not new news though. That quote (or something similar) came out a few weeks ago, basically just that he’s not thinking about moving in-season and that they’ll reevaluate at the end of the year.

If Grier comes to Tomas saying “one more tough year, then we’ll be trying to make the playoffs”, maybe Hertl stays. Who knows. But unless Tomas specifically wants to move, I’d much rather keep him.

If he does want to move, I think it would be easy to do so. He does have his M-NTC (I think he can choose three teams) but if he wants out, there will be no shortage of options—this isn’t the Karlsson contract.

 

[coooldude]

That’s not new news though. That quote (or something similar) came out a few weeks ago, basically just that he’s not thinking about moving in-season and that they’ll reevaluate at the end of the year.

If Grier comes to Tomas saying “one more tough year, then we’ll be trying to make the playoffs”, maybe Hertl stays. Who knows. But unless Tomas specifically wants to move, I’d much rather keep him.

If he does want to move, I think it would be easy to do so. He does have his M-NTC (I think he can choose three teams) but if he wants out, there will be no shortage of options—this isn’t the Karlsson contract.

Sure, but it was a new quote to me! A few weeks back I thought he said "I don't want to think about it during the season, just trying to win." Maybe I'm wrong, maybe he said this 2 weeks ago, but this quote was markedly different to me, a shift from what he had been saying previously.

I'm generally on the fence about whether to keep him or not keep him. He's obviously an amazing player who I love and would help with attitude and leadership during the rebuild, plus a steady 1-2C for at least another few years before he starts aging into a 3C-ish role, but we also need assets and so it depends on the return in the market. Great return, probably still better for 2028+ to trade him.

 

[one2gamble]

I'm going to stand by the fact that you should not completely dismantle all talent from a team, or you will have a hard time getting the foundation back in place. I will also say, keeping people who dont want to be on the team is also a mistake.

 

[TheBeard]

I'd bring in Chartier in a heartbeat

 

[sharski]

My guess is that Hertl has already taken a good hard look at all the Shark For Life guys still on the team and is thinking of he wants to avoid that fate, better to act sooner than later

Wouldn't be surprised if someone is having like 90% less fun being on a tanking team without OGs like Jumbo, Pavs etc. to keep the team spirits up

 

[Celly4Celebrini]

I think Hertl gets moved this off-season if there is a market, which I never thought before.. maybe Greir's comments made him realize we are years away from even pushing from a wild card spot.

i feel like Boston would make a deadline deal. theyre so close every year, and know the core is getting older.

 

[spintops]

We have Couture as a veteran presence+ we can use our cap on established players. I'm not too worried about missing Hertl in 5 years, good chance he is a negative contract by then.

 

[Jargon]

I’d rather trade Couture than Hertl but also don’t really know why we’d trade Hertl. He’s been awesome with the kids, growing into a leader, beloved by fans.. unless the return is bananas, I’d rather keep him to insulate the guys and have some continuity for the team. He’s not that old, he can easily be a big part of the new team.

I see that quote as: give me more information on when this will be less painful. I imagine he wants to see some improvement next year.

 

[LadyStanley]

Sounds like Hertl wants out. I don't care what we get back, the only priority should be dumping the entire contract with no retention.

More sounds like "I want to do what is best for the team"

 

[Hangemhigh]

GM constructs team that has promise but isn't winning, hires coach he hired before with success, that coach gets the team to win their first SCF and then wins another one in another two seasons.

Where's the part where Lombardi didn't succeed?

You said he did a good job in LA. I guess you think he sucked in San Jose, which he did.

In LA he already had many core players in place when becoming GM in 2006. He already had Kopitar, Quick, and Brownstain. He added Doughty with the 2nd pick of 2008 but that was a pretty easy pick.
He did a good trade for Justin Williams in 2009.
Mike Richards trade was probably bad. He gave up Simmonds and 2009 1st rounder (5th) Brayden Schenn.
Jeff Carter trade was probably Sutter.

The 2 1sts in 2006 he drafted a backup goalie, Bernier and Trevor Lewis.
For 2007 he drafted at 4th overall who was eventually waived.
2008 Doughty and at 13th Teubert who was traded.
2009 Schenn who was traded.
2010 15th overall Derek Forbort, traded for a 4th round pick
2011 traded as part of a deal for Justin Penner

He didn't really construct a team. Most key players were already there. His drafting kind of sucked. Trades were up and down. Sutter later helped him with construction and trades.

San Jose was worse. Dumbardi really sucked bad as he had no idea what he was doing then Sutter comes in and made him look competent.

Note that Sutter would GM some other teams and gets opportunities with similar success later. Dumbardi only got 2 chances and both times he only avoided getting fired while Sutter was there. Both times he looked bad without Sutter. Sutter is fine without Dumbardi.

 

[OrrNumber4]

You said he did a good job in LA. I guess you think he sucked in San Jose, which he did.

In LA he already had many core players in place when becoming GM in 2006. He already had Kopitar, Quick, and Brownstain. He added Doughty with the 2nd pick of 2008 but that was a pretty easy pick.
He did a good trade for Justin Williams in 2009.
Mike Richards trade was probably bad. He gave up Simmonds and 2009 1st rounder (5th) Brayden Schenn.
Jeff Carter trade was probably Sutter.

It's fair to say that much of the talent was already there, but he also has to get credit for bringing in Sutter, Carter, and Richards.

San Jose was worse. Dumbardi really sucked bad as he had no idea what he was doing then Sutter comes in and made him look competent.

Lombardi certainly had his issues. But, the big, gigantic, unassailable problem in San Jose was that in a no-cap league, SJS would never win a cup. On a budget, Lombardi did an excellent job. For sure, as much as you can fault a GM for drafting and developing, his record had faults. In particular, he bungled some of the high picks the Sharks had...but otherwise, his draft record is sparkling, with numerous late-round gems. Lombardi excelled at getting great value in trades. The Suter trade, trading #2 overall, later the Messier trade...absolute genius, forward-thinking moves. He was trying to find, if not set, the next trend. For all his positives, Doug Wilson was constantly riding the newest trend into the dirt.

 

[Hangemhigh]

It's fair to say that much of the talent was already there, but he also has to get credit for bringing in Sutter, Carter, and Richards.

Lombardi certainly had his issues. But, the big, gigantic, unassailable problem in San Jose was that in a no-cap league, SJS would never win a cup. On a budget, Lombardi did an excellent job. For sure, as much as you can fault a GM for drafting and developing, his record had faults. In particular, he bungled some of the high picks the Sharks had...but otherwise, his draft record is sparkling, with numerous late-round gems. Lombardi excelled at getting great value in trades. The Suter trade, trading #2 overall, later the Messier trade...absolute genius, forward-thinking moves. He was trying to find, if not set, the next trend. For all his positives, Doug Wilson was constantly riding the newest trend into the dirt.

Bringing in Sutter to save his job like last time? OK.

I don't think the Richards trade was good. It was a trade they had to struggle to escape from. Richards supposed leadership was probably just having a source of cheap cocaine which is plentiful already in LA. And I liked Wayne Simmonds.

The Carter trade was probably Sutter trading off a player who would not buy in. Dumbardi won't make player trades without Sutter approval.

Bungled high draft picks...but had a sparkling draft record? No.

His San Jose problem was being clueless and learning on the job by making every mistake you can make.

Not signing your players before camp? Dumb.
Deciding Ray Whitney isn't an NHL player? Dumb.
Viktor "Head case" Kozlov is going to be your 1C? Dumb.
Bernie Nicholls on the ice when he can't even keep up with Dmen 40 ft behind him? Dumb.
Al Sims as coach? Dumb.
Saying he is your coach next year, then firing him after talking to players? Clueless and dumb.
Drafting a 3rd liner on his club team with your 1st round pick? Dumb.
Trading Dahlen and 2 other players for "Psycho" Belfour? Dumb.
Trading a LW for a RW while pissing off your Captain? Dumb.
Letting Tampa pick ahead of you for nothing? Dumb.

Best part is when he drafted Riihijarvi and the other GMs had no idea who this pick was. He could have been picked much later. Then some GMs pranked him by saying they had him on their lists and had a trade arranged to move up for him. Then Dumbardi repeated this to the Merc because he still had no clue he was the joke. Complete waste of a 1st round pick.

Suter trade? Probably helped by Sutter being here already.

Messier trade? What did the Sharks get out of that?

Dumbardi was a really bad GM who eventually became a bad one after working very hard. He only looked competent when Sutter was his coach.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Bringing in Sutter to save his job like last time? OK.

I don't think the Richards trade was good. It was a trade they had to struggle to escape from. Richards supposed leadership was probably just having a source of cheap cocaine which is plentiful already in LA. And I liked Wayne Simmonds.

Richards was a key, critical player for the Kings.

The Carter trade was probably Sutter trading off a player who would not buy in. Dumbardi won't make player trades without Sutter approval.

I don't think this is true. After all, Lombardi foisted Gaborik on Sutter and made him adjust (to Sutter's credit, he did so very well).

Bungled high draft picks...but had a sparkling draft record? No.

His San Jose problem was being clueless and learning on the job by making every mistake you can make.

Not signing your players before camp? Dumb.

Yes, because he didn't have the money to do otherwise.

Best part is when he drafted Riihijarvi and the other GMs had no idea who this pick was. He could have been picked much later. Then some GMs pranked him by saying they had him on their lists and had a trade arranged to move up for him. Then Dumbardi repeated this to the Merc because he still had no clue he was the joke. Complete waste of a 1st round pick.

As you pointed out, yes, he had his mistakes. However...I don't think he was GM outright for the all-Finn draft (in 1995).

Yes, he had his moments at the draft. Zyuzin was a bad pick (100% understandable at the time; it was a very weak draft; with the other 1st he got the 2nd/3rd best player from that class in Sturm). Jeff Jillson never panned out (though Lombardi got value for him nonetheless).

If you want to look at draft steals, he took Sturm, Hannan, Cheechoo, Samuelsson, Murray, Dimitrakos, Goc, Clowe, and Ehrhoff. Not to mention depth pieces like Smith, Bradley, and Davison.

 

[Bizz]

You said he did a good job in LA. I guess you think he sucked in San Jose, which he did.

In LA he already had many core players in place when becoming GM in 2006. He already had Kopitar, Quick, and Brownstain. He added Doughty with the 2nd pick of 2008 but that was a pretty easy pick.
He did a good trade for Justin Williams in 2009.
Mike Richards trade was probably bad. He gave up Simmonds and 2009 1st rounder (5th) Brayden Schenn.
Jeff Carter trade was probably Sutter.

The 2 1sts in 2006 he drafted a backup goalie, Bernier and Trevor Lewis.
For 2007 he drafted at 4th overall who was eventually waived.
2008 Doughty and at 13th Teubert who was traded.
2009 Schenn who was traded.
2010 15th overall Derek Forbort, traded for a 4th round pick
2011 traded as part of a deal for Justin Penner

He didn't really construct a team. Most key players were already there. His drafting kind of sucked. Trades were up and down. Sutter later helped him with construction and trades.

San Jose was worse. Dumbardi really sucked bad as he had no idea what he was doing then Sutter comes in and made him look competent.

Note that Sutter would GM some other teams and gets opportunities with similar success later. Dumbardi only got 2 chances and both times he only avoided getting fired while Sutter was there. Both times he looked bad without Sutter. Sutter is fine without Dumbardi.

Lombardi trading down from 2nd overall, passing up both Pronger and Kariya, and drafting Viktor f***ing Kozlov should've gotten him thrown out onto the street way back then.

Lombardi had a habit of trading down or drafting low ceiling players because he didn't want to have to pay them the big bucks if they ever became superstars.

You already mentioned Whitney so no need to reiterate that one.

Ozolinsh wanted a big pay day after our first two cinderella runs? NOPE. off you go to Colorado, he was just lucky they were willing to give up a then underperforming Owen Nolan in return.

Larionov and Makarov want new contracts after said cinderella runs? NOPE. To Free Agency with you!

Falloon finally starting to evolve into a decent middle six role player? NOPE. Off to Philly you go for peanuts.

Friesen wants his first big boy contract? NOPE! off to Anaheim with you!

Luck our way to #1OA in 1998? f*** that Vinny Lecavalier guy. He probably wants 10M a season! Watch as I trade down to #2 and draft Brad f***ing Stuart.

What's that Brad Stuart wants his first big boy contract too? Who does he think he is, Vinny Lecavalier!? AND Evgeni Nabokov?! at the same time! Oh we don't need them anyways! After all we were just an open net away from reaching the Conference Final the year before! We're still contenders without them, just look at all the preseason articles predicting we're gonna win the Division! Hold out all you want we don't need you! Teemu Selanne is all we need to take us to the promised lan...and we missed the playoffs. And I'm fired.

and to think I once defended all this when the articles started pouring out after that 2002 run blasting our GM for being inept because I was a 21 year old fanboy who was too young and naive to know any better. The only thing he's done for the franchise that had any lasting positive impacts were acquiring Ricci and Damphousse, that's it. Without those two we're bottom feeders in the early 2000's.

This was well before there was even a Cap to worry about. As a result the Sharks were never a legitimate powerhouse with him calling the shots.

 

[Hangemhigh]

Richards was a key, critical player for the Kings.

I don't think this is true. After all, Lombardi foisted Gaborik on Sutter and made him adjust (to Sutter's credit, he did so very well).

Yes, because he didn't have the money to do otherwise.

As you pointed out, yes, he had his mistakes. However...I don't think he was GM outright for the all-Finn draft (in 1995).

Yes, he had his moments at the draft. Zyuzin was a bad pick (100% understandable at the time; it was a very weak draft; with the other 1st he got the 2nd/3rd best player from that class in Sturm). Jeff Jillson never panned out (though Lombardi got value for him nonetheless).

If you want to look at draft steals, he took Sturm, Hannan, Cheechoo, Samuelsson, Murray, Dimitrakos, Goc, Clowe, and Ehrhoff. Not to mention depth pieces like Smith, Bradley, and Davison.

People have different opinions on Richards. I don't consider him key. Some people do. Whatever.

Dumbardi probably thought Gaborik would be Selanne without the locker room problems. Sutter would have had a veto on it. Sutter was fine working with both guys.

Funny DW didn't have problems signing players.

Dumbardi was on the draft floor making the decisions at the Finnish draft.

I think Sturminator, Goc, Ehrhoff, was maybe a Hasso influence.

GM has to sign players and get them to camp. He was the worst at doing this.

GM has to know the players work together as a team. He didn't know the locker room was trash and ruined team chemistry. Didn't know head cases like Nazarov, Belfour, and Kozlov wouldn't work. Sutter helped as he could tell which players would not work.

GM is supposed to trade for players that fit. Trades for Janney. Trades for Sheppard. Lets Makarov go so Larionov wants to go. Traded for Selanne who did not fit.

GM is supposed to get the right coach. Sims was his pick. He was going to keep him another year until the player interviews forced him to change. Probably his father in law got him in touch with Sutter.

Depth pieces are fine, probably mainly the work of scouts. The 1st rounders are probably the most indicative of his drafting skill as these players should have gotten the most attention. A 7th rounder is probably the work of one scout being sure of what he saw.

He was better in LA, because he learned after screwing up so much. But he has never had success without Sutter. And many key pieces were already there.
Finally, when owners wanted the veterans traded for picks, he did not do it. He is worthless trash for doing that.

 

[OrrNumber4]

People have different opinions on Richards. I don't consider him key. Some people do. Whatever.

One of the best defensive games I've ever seen from a player was that game 7 he had against the Sharks in 2014, so I'm biased!

Dumbardi probably thought Gaborik would be Selanne without the locker room problems. Sutter would have had a veto on it. Sutter was fine working with both guys.

What Selanne locker room problems?

Funny DW didn't have problems signing players.

What free agents did DW sign? He also operated under the cap, with much larger budgets.

Dumbardi was on the draft floor making the decisions at the Finnish draft.

If so, then he also gets credit for making the best draft pick in the team's history in Kiprusoff.

I think Sturminator, Goc, Ehrhoff, was maybe a Hasso influence.

I can't tell if you are serious. Plattner wasn't even a minority owner until 2002.

GM has to sign players and get them to camp. He was the worst at doing this.

GM has to know the players work together as a team. He didn't know the locker room was trash and ruined team chemistry. Didn't know head cases like Nazarov, Belfour, and Kozlov wouldn't work. Sutter helped as he could tell which players would not work.

And DW brought in Kane, who perhaps single-handedly sunk the team

GM is supposed to trade for players that fit. Trades for Janney. Trades for Sheppard. Lets Makarov go so Larionov wants to go. Traded for Selanne who did not fit.

Traded for Nolan, Vernon, Damphousse, Harvey, Ricci, and Sundstrom, to name just a few.

Depth pieces are fine, probably mainly the work of scouts. The 1st rounders are probably the most indicative of his drafting skill as these players should have gotten the most attention. A 7th rounder is probably the work of one scout being sure of what he saw.

It feels like you aren't discussing this in good faith! All good things are a result of someone else or circumstances, but the failures are his alone. After all, Lombardi is the one who hires the scouting staff...

He was better in LA, because he learned after screwing up so much. But he has never had success without Sutter. And many key pieces were already there.

Agreed, he certainly learned from his time in SJ (as did Sutter).

Finally, when owners wanted the veterans traded for picks, he did not do it. He is worthless trash for doing that.

A good point; he did fail to gut the team. But part of that was Teemu Selanne's intransigence in waiving his NTC.

 

[tiburon12]

I feel like Hertl -> Boston or NYR makes tons of sense, should he want to go. With the cap going up both teams can take the full freight of the contract + the best years of his deal line up with the competitive window for these teams.

What could we get back, though?

 

[Bizz]

I feel like Hertl -> Boston or NYR makes tons of sense, should he want to go. With the cap going up both teams can take the full freight of the contract + the best years of his deal line up with the competitive window for these teams.

What could we get back, though?

Rangers are already set at center, so I doubt they'd target him.

Boston I could see giving up a '24 1st, '24 2nd + prospect + Grzelcyk for him.