Speculation: 2022-23 Sharks Roster Discussion Part II

[Hodge]

Peak Burns and Karlsson were absolutely worth that money. They could absolutely take over a game the way very few players ever can.

The only defensemen worth that large a percentage of the cap are the elite #1s and IMO being an elite #1 defenseman is more about consistently creating small advantages for your team with and without the puck in every zone than it is about offensive brilliance. If you have the rare guy who does both, like Cale Makar, then you're cooking with gas but that does not describe Karlsson or Burns.

I don't understand this comment. Is your position that you can't win with those players?

You can't win a Cup if your #1 defenseman is purely offense oriented with little to no defensive ability. They play too many minutes in too many high leverage situations. Or at least it's extremely difficult to, I suppose it can be done if you have multiple franchise talents at forward and get excellent goaltending.

 

[Kcoyote3]

EK65 is still a top 5 Defenseman in the NHL when he's healthy.

He's really not. Makar, Fox, Hedman, Josi, Hughes, Ekblad, McAvoy are all way better. I'd say he's a top 15 D when he's healthy and plays like he gives a shit. So about 20 games a year.

 

[Bizz]

Makar, Fox, Hedman, Josi, Hughes, Ekblad, McAvoy are all way better.

Objectively false.

 

[Gecklund]

Objectively false.

No it’s not.

 

[Kcoyote3]

Objectively false.

I mean what objective information do you want to use?

 

[Eggdoh]

EK65 is still a top 5 Defenseman in the NHL when he's healthy.

Now THAT is a hot take. I hope he proves you right.

 

[Karl Prime]

Karlsson is obviously not a top 5/10 guy anymore. But I think we might see a guy this year closer to who he was in Ottawa - the kind of guy who will be a fantasy sleeper if he plays 70+ games.

As for the "can't win with an offense-only #1 D-man .... the Avs just did. And I saw Makar make quite a few bad plays in his defensive zone - let's not pretend he's leagues above 2011-17 Karlsson as far as his overall game goes. And Karlsson never had the benefit of playing with a transition monster like MacKinnon or that kind of elite team the Avs do either. You could say it's only possible to win a Cup with profile of D if you have the elite forward talent but I'd say that is usually the only way you win Cups anyway. The Blues and maybe Canes are the only teams that didn't have that franchise top guy (Bergeron and Kopitar were those guys too).

 

[stator]

I think it's ridiculous to think that offense oriented defense can win cups. Sure, there's probably outliers just like in every thing else, but the lack of a defense cost the Sharks the SCF series against the Pens. Sharks defense could not handle opponents offense. DW was never very good at building defenses.

 

[OrrNumber4]

I think it's ridiculous to think that offense oriented defense can win cups. Sure, there's probably outliers just like in every thing else, but the lack of a defense cost the Sharks the SCF series against the Pens. Sharks defense could not handle opponents offense. DW was never very good at building defenses.

I remember the Sharks losing that series because they were unable to score. That was a series that was somewhat inverted; San Jose's defense held Pittsburgh's offense at bay, but their offense couldn't score against an unremarkable Penguins defense.

 

[TheBeard]

The only defensemen worth that large a percentage of the cap are the elite #1s and IMO being an elite #1 defenseman is more about consistently creating small advantages for your team with and without the puck in every zone than it is about offensive brilliance. If you have the rare guy who does both, like Cale Makar, then you're cooking with gas but that does not describe Karlsson or Burns.

Makar is at best an average defensive defenceman right now and made a lot of poor plays in his own zone during the playoffs. Sure he could get better but he’s not that complete defenceman you’re talking about yet.

 

[tiburon12]

I remember the Sharks losing that series because they were unable to score. That was a series that was somewhat inverted; San Jose's defense held Pittsburgh's offense at bay, but their offense couldn't score against an unremarkable Penguins defense.

Yes, and when Pitt scored, it was timely. Sheary OT winner, Bonino late-3rd tie breaker (Sharks failed a PP right after taboot). They also capitalized on so many mistakes.

Sharks offense was just so dry. Pavelski disappeared, Braun and M. Karlsson (lol) had 2 goals, Ward tied game 3 on a stinker, 2 shots on goal in the 3rd in Game 6.

 

[Chinaski89]

He's really not. Makar, Fox, Hedman, Josi, Hughes, Ekblad, McAvoy are all way better. I'd say he's a top 15 D when he's healthy and plays like he gives a shit. So about 20 games a year.

Forgetting Seider {sp} in Detroit

 

[Gecklund]

Makar is at best an average defensive defenceman right now and made a lot of poor plays in his own zone during the playoffs. Sure he could get better but he’s not that complete defenceman you’re talking about yet.

Makar is actually really damn good in his zone. A lot of that has to do with him being a freak athlete and able to make up for those risks that he takes but to say he is average at best is just plain wrong. Is he some shut down defenseman? No not at all but him and Hedman are the two most complete defensemen in the league.

 

[sharski]

I think it's ridiculous to think that offense oriented defense can win cups. Sure, there's probably outliers just like in every thing else, but the lack of a defense cost the Sharks the SCF series against the Pens. Sharks defense could not handle opponents offense. DW was never very good at building defenses.

I remember the Sharks losing that series because they were unable to score. That was a series that was somewhat inverted; San Jose's defense held Pittsburgh's offense at bay, but their offense couldn't score against an unremarkable Penguins defense.

Yes, and when Pitt scored, it was timely. Sheary OT winner, Bonino late-3rd tie breaker (Sharks failed a PP right after taboot). They also capitalized on so many mistakes.

Sharks offense was just so dry. Pavelski disappeared, Braun and M. Karlsson (lol) had 2 goals, Ward tied game 3 on a stinker, 2 shots on goal in the 3rd in Game 6.

Too soon

 

[weastern bias]

I am loling

Makar is at best an average defensive defenceman right now and made a lot of poor plays in his own zone during the playoffs. Sure he could get better but he’s not that complete defenceman you’re talking about yet.

Makar is unbelievably good in his own zone, I don't know what you're seeing

 

[Gecklund]

My expected lines for tomorrow:
Timo-Hertl-Kunin
Lindblom-Couture-Labanc
Nieto-Bonino-Gregor
Lorentz-Sturm-Gadjovich

Harrington-EK
Ferraro-Vlasic
Simek-Benning

Reimer

This is going to be a LONG season

 

[stator]

I remember the Sharks losing that series because they were unable to score. That was a series that was somewhat inverted; San Jose's defense held Pittsburgh's offense at bay, but their offense couldn't score against an unremarkable Penguins defense.

Murray came up big for them as the Sharks couldn't score against another backup. But the real cost to me was the bending of the defense giving up timely goals. Pollak/Dillion getting burned in one loss, Vlasic/Braun in another, etc.

 

[Lebanezer]

My expected lines for tomorrow:
Timo-Hertl-Kunin
Lindblom-Couture-Labanc
Nieto-Bonino-Gregor
Lorentz-Sturm-Gadjovich

Harrington-EK
Ferraro-Vlasic
Simek-Benning

Reimer

This is going to be a LONG season

I'll be very curious to see the lineup at the end of the season.

 

[Eggdoh]

Murray came up big for them as the Sharks couldn't score against another backup. But the real cost to me was the bending of the defense giving up timely goals. Pollak/Dillion getting burned in one loss, Vlasic/Braun in another, etc.

How I remember the series: The Penguins were great at putting a puck into open space, then beating the much slower Sharks to it. Their defense, which on paper WAS awful did a good job clearing rebounds after Murray made the first save and quickly transitioning the other way. Finally, two other reasons the Sharks' offense was so bad: Hornqvist injuring Hertl and Thornton playing with a broken finger caused by a Jay Buowmeester slash at the end of the Blues' series (yet another reason to hate the Blues, as if we needed one more).

 

[Gecklund]

I'll be very curious to see the lineup at the end of the season.

Definitely. Timo, Bonino, Gregor, Nieto, Viel, Gadjovich, Svechnikov, Nutivaara, Harrington, Reimer are all out of contract at the end of the year. I’d like to keep Gregor but I’d move the rest. I’d also try to move Barabanov at the deadline because we’ve seen what guys with a little bit of term on a cheap (ish) contract get although I don’t know what the market would be. If we move every one of those guys (except Gregor I like him) the team becomes miles more interesting.

Kunin-Hertl-Eklund
Lindblom-Couture-Labanc
Lorentz-Bordeleau-Gregor
Raska-Sturm-Reedy

Simek-EK
Ferraro-Benning
Vlasic-Merkley

Kahkonen
Mann/Dell/Makaniemi

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Yes, and when Pitt scored, it was timely. Sheary OT winner, Bonino late-3rd tie breaker (Sharks failed a PP right after taboot). They also capitalized on so many mistakes.

Sharks offense was just so dry. Pavelski disappeared, Braun and M. Karlsson (lol) had 2 goals, Ward tied game 3 on a stinker, 2 shots on goal in the 3rd in Game 6.

This tends to happen when you don't have the puck very much. That's where the Pens were just better than the Sharks. Sharks D was fine except for the part about getting the puck and getting out of the zone. When Burns is your only competent puck mover on the blue line against the best of the best, you tend to run into such issues. Braun wasn't competent at moving the puck against top guys and Vlasic was almost always deferring to him to get out of the zone. And clearly nobody was going to do it between Dillon and Polak.

 

[Alaskanice]

Well, Lias Andersson has been waived. Is he even worth giving a chance to??

 

[Gecklund]

Well, Lias Andersson has been waived. Is he even worth giving a chance to??

No. Not in the slightest. Think slightly better Lane Pederson.

 

[hotcabbagesoup]

Well, Lias Andersson has been waived. Is he even worth giving a chance to??

Slater Koekoek also available. I know @Juxtaposer likes him.
Lane Pederson also available!!!. I know @Juxtaposer doesn't like him.

 

[weastern bias]

If we're looking for a complimentary skill winger Milano just got released from his PTO, I'd give him a look