Speculation: 2022-23 Sharks Roster Discussion Part II

[OrrNumber4]

Do we need to get rid of Ferraro to open a spot for Thrun (who may be ready soon) or Mukh (who will almost certainly not be ready for at least another full year, or more likely 2 or 3)? We hardly have a surplus of NHL-worthy defensive talent.

Thrun and even Mukhamadullin are hardly the types of prospects that you "make way for". Let them earn a spot and beat Ferraro to a spot; then you worry about trading Ferraro. Otherwise, keep him unless an offer blows you away.

 

[Pavelski2112]

You are VASTLY overrating Ferraro who has a negative corsi every year. Dude is bad. He is not an NHL level player. You can’t even use the off-side argument for him as he’s only played 25% of his shifts on the right. His QoC numbers are bad. He plays against third and fourth lines for the most part and gets CAVED. If he was so good as some of you claim, it doesn’t matter if his partner is anymore than an average 3rd pairing D. He should still win these matchups.

His “motor” is WHY he’s so bad. He is constantly out of position. He is constantly putting himself out of position. He needs a dman to baby sit him defensively like Karlsson does but doesn’t provide a shred of the offense that Karlsson does.

You’re right some of these guys might not be better than him but there isn’t really a way for them to be worse.

Ferraro is an incredibly high-event player with none of the upside. He has the hustle but not the brains, so it puts him out of position all the time. His puck skills aren't good enough to catch up either, so the only thing he's legitimately great at is blocking shots.

I do say Burns ruined Ferraro as somewhat of a joke but I don't think it's fully out of the question, considering most of what I mentioned earlier weren't problems until he learned a bunch of habits that looked like he was just trying to copy Burns' style of play.

 

[Gecklund]

Thrun and even Mukhamadullin are hardly the types of prospects that you "make way for". Let them earn a spot and beat Ferraro to a spot; then you worry about trading Ferraro. Otherwise, keep him unless an offer blows you away.

Even without Ferraro, they have Vlasic, MacDonald, Knyzhov, Simek. Yes it’s a bunch of garbage but Ferraro just adds more garbage.

Ferraro is an incredibly high-event player with none of the upside. He has the hustle but not the brains, so it puts him out of position all the time. His puck skills aren't good enough to catch up either, so the only thing he's legitimately great at is blocking shots.

I do say Burns ruined Ferraro as somewhat of a joke but I don't think it's fully out of the question, considering most of what I mentioned earlier weren't problems until he learned a bunch of habits that looked like he was just trying to copy Burns' style of play.

I’ve tried to explain Ferraro to non-Sharks fans and I think the best way I’ve come up with is a defensive D that needs a bit of babysitting

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I get that, but at the same time, Ferraro is only 24. If you could get a 1st for him, sure. But the chances of a 2nd or 3rd round pick, even in a deep draft, to even become an NHLer is pretty slim. We'd be lucky if it turned out to be a 6D. Now if Ferraro improves to even just a stable #5/#6 defenseman, he's still young enough as a defenseman to fit into the long term plan of building around Bedard/Fantilli/Carlsson/etc.

With Muk, Havelid, Thrun, etc, you're still missing that #1D (I don't consider Karlsson to fit into the competing window) which keeping Ferraro wouldn't hinder, nor would trading Ferraro net you it. So I have no qualms of keeping him as a third pair with hopes he can still turn it around given his age. I'd honestly rather keep him than get a lottery ticket 2nd or 3rd round pick.

There's a lot that goes into this and a lot of variables at play so I wouldn't be surprised if the team went the direction of hanging onto Ferraro just to be that depth guy but I feel like if this team has a chance to get more picks in the first two rounds, they need to take advantage of it while they can. Yes the odds are slim but taking your shots at other elite level players is more important than the spot Ferraro would fill. Ferraro as a stable 5/6 is what you'd hope that Vlasic will be for the duration of his contract so it's not a complete waste since your only option to get rid of Vlasic is a buyout in all likelihood. If Ferraro can net you a 2 that gives you a shot at a Roope Hintz type of steal that this team is going to need if it ever wants to get out of the rebuilding phase. The biggest thing that kept a team like Edmonton in the rebuild phase is that they practically never hit anything outside their top picks to the top of the lineup. If we can't pull a top line or top pairing skater outside our top five selections, we're going to be at this for a long time. Trading for those types of players will likely be difficult and signing them as free agents is near impossible for us. I just feel like any player that isn't in our plans for the future or is pretty easily replaceable for us that can return a 2nd round pick or better should be dealt and I believe Ferraro may fit that. If he doesn't though then keep him.

I just don't think we should be banking on our team drafting and developing players outside the top five with most of their picks taken. If they only have two picks in the 11-64 range, it's not playing the odds well to only have two picks in that range when we know that they will bust frequently enough. I think you need to have at least three draft picks taken in that range to play that sort of game to acquire those types of players.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Thrun and even Mukhamadullin are hardly the types of prospects that you "make way for". Let them earn a spot and beat Ferraro to a spot; then you worry about trading Ferraro. Otherwise, keep him unless an offer blows you away.

I fully agree that neither should be “gifted” a spot, per se, but if you have to be willing to let them win a spot over Ferraro instead of playing “tie goes to the veteran”, in particular with Thrun, who I doubt would be willing to sign with us if he thought he was AHL-bound.

The double-edge then, so to speak, is that if both guys beat out Ferraro fair and square, doesn’t that negatively impact his value? Even if you move Ferraro, I think we still have enough LHD in the org that it wouldn’t be equivalent to gifting Thrun and Mukhamadullin a spot. Vlasic is a lock to be on the roster in at worst a #7D capacity (and probably still in the top-6 D, if we’re being fully honest). I would like to see Knyzhov perform well enough through the rest of this season to lock down a LHD spot. And we still have Simek, MacDonald, and Pouliot under contract for next season. I know a lot of those guys can play the right side as well, but I’m just saying that if we do trade Ferraro and for whatever reason neither Thrun nor Mukhamadullin earn a spot in the lineup, we still have plenty of LHD at least as good as Ferraro to fill out the roster.

I would like to see the left side be Knyzhov, Thrun, and Vlasic/Mukhamadullin (although I think Mukh probably starts in the AHL) down the left side, with Pouliot as the fifth LHD option. I’d like to see Ferraro traded for the best pick(s) we can get for him in the draft; the longer we hold on to him, the less value he has IMO.

Edit: Completely forgot about Nutivaara, he’ll be hanging around as well.

Edit 2: Actually Nutivaara is a UFA this summer, whoops!

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I fully agree that neither should be “gifted” a spot, per se, but if you have to be willing to let them win a spot over Ferraro instead of playing “tie goes to the veteran”, in particular with Thrun, who I doubt would be willing to sign with us if he thought he was AHL-bound.

The double-edge then, so to speak, is that if both guys beat out Ferraro fair and square, doesn’t that negatively impact his value? Even if you move Ferraro, I think we still have enough LHD in the org that it wouldn’t be equivalent to gifting Thrun and Mukhamadullin a spot. Vlasic is a lock to be on the roster in at worst a #7D capacity (and probably still in the top-6 D, if we’re being fully honest). I would like to see Knyzhov perform well enough through the rest of this season to lock down a LHD spot. And we still have Simek, MacDonald, and Pouliot under contract for next season. I know a lot of those guys can play the right side as well, but I’m just saying that if we do trade Ferraro and for whatever reason neither Thrun nor Mukhamadullin earn a spot in the lineup, we still have plenty of LHD at least as good as Ferraro to fill out the roster.

I would like to see the left side be Knyzhov, Thrun, and Vlasic/Mukhamadullin (although I think Mukh probably starts in the AHL) down the left side, with Pouliot as the fifth LHD option. I’d like to see Ferraro traded for the best pick(s) we can get for him in the draft; the longer we hold on to him, the less value he has IMO.

Edit: Completely forgot about Nutivaara, he’ll be hanging around as well.

Edit 2: Actually Nutivaara is a UFA this summer, whoops!

Pouliot is also a UFA this summer. I wouldn't expect him to return either.

 

[hohosaregood]

Pouliot is also a UFA this summer. I wouldn't expect him to return either.

I'd expect him to be part of the org. He's been pretty important as a reliable veteran for the Cuda and we have a bunch of young dmen coming in next year.

I don't think Simek is going to factor in next year if he's really dealing with his 3rd concussion of the season.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Pouliot is also a UFA this summer. I wouldn't expect him to return either.

I didn’t even realize the contract he just signed wasn’t for next season… Still, I wouldn’t be shocked to see him back.

I'd expect him to be part of the org. He's been pretty important as a reliable veteran for the Cuda and we have a bunch of young dmen coming in next year.

I don't think Simek is going to factor in next year if he's really dealing with his 3rd concussion of the season.

I listed him because he’s under contract, though it’s certainly possible he doesn’t step on the ice again.

My point is just that we have a bunch of bottom pairing LHD and I don’t think trading Ferraro would indicate that Thrun or Mukhamadullin is being given a free spot. Ferraro is truly f***ing horrible, as much as I hate to say it because he was once one of my favorite Sharks.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

You are VASTLY overrating Ferraro who has a negative corsi every year. Dude is bad. He is not an NHL level player. You can’t even use the off-side argument for him as he’s only played 25% of his shifts on the right. His QoC numbers are bad. He plays against third and fourth lines for the most part and gets CAVED. If he was so good as some of you claim, it doesn’t matter if his partner is anymore than an average 3rd pairing D. He should still win these matchups.

His “motor” is WHY he’s so bad. He is constantly out of position. He is constantly putting himself out of position. He needs a dman to baby sit him defensively like Karlsson does but doesn’t provide a shred of the offense that Karlsson does.

You’re right some of these guys might not be better than him but there isn’t really a way for them to be worse.

I don’t think that I am VASTLY overrating Ferraro. You’ll note that I didn’t make any qualitative statements of his play other than he’s an NHL defenseman, which is objectively true, and that his game has SOME traits that have value.

I’m not advocating that Ferraro is untouchable. I’m simply saying if these prospects are as good as others say they are, they should have no problem showing it in the AHL or during camp. I’ll worry about Ferraro when we have prospects that have demonstrated they are ACTUALLY BETTER than Ferraro AND are being blocked by him.

Until then, again, unless some other team has a package that provides a great return for Ferraro I wouldn’t spend much energy worrying about Ferraro.

 

[hohosaregood]

I didn’t even realize the contract he just signed wasn’t for next season… Still, I wouldn’t be shocked to see him back.

I listed him because he’s under contract, though it’s certainly possible he doesn’t step on the ice again.

My point is just that we have a bunch of bottom pairing LHD and I don’t think trading Ferraro would indicate that Thrun or Mukhamadullin is being given a free spot. Ferraro is truly f***ing horrible, as much as I hate to say it because he was once one of my favorite Sharks.

Yea I dunno what to do about Ferraro. I'm ready to move on cuz he's getting beat like early season Benning every night but he's also young enough that he could turn it around even though it's probably not worth the trouble.

There's also the other wrinkle that we don't know what happens with Karlsson this summer. The defense was bad and depth was extremely shallow to begin with but it's gonna be so much worse without him. We might not be planning to gift spots to Thrun and Mukhamadullin but there might not be enough bodies on the back end to let them develop at their own pace.

 

[Gecklund]

I don’t think that I am VASTLY overrating Ferraro. You’ll note that I didn’t make any qualitative statements of his play other than he’s an NHL defenseman, which is objectively true, and that his game has SOME traits that have value.

I’m not advocating that Ferraro is untouchable. I’m simply saying if these prospects are as good as others say they are, they should have no problem showing it in the AHL or during camp. I’ll worry about Ferraro when we have prospects that have demonstrated they are ACTUALLY BETTER than Ferraro are being blocked by him.

Until then, again, unless some other team has a package that provides a great return for Ferraro I wouldn’t spend much energy worrying about Ferraro.

I mean that’s a part of the rest of the season. Shakir, Okhotiuk, Thrun give them NHL and see what happens. Again they cannot be worst than Ferraro.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

I mean that’s a part of the rest of the season. Shakir, Okhotiuk, Thrun give them NHL and see what happens. Again they cannot be worst than Ferraro.

But, they can. Additionally, I don’t see any particularly strong reason why improvement is all that important for the remainder of the season.

Hey, if the org wants to give any of our prospects a taste of the NHL because they thinks productive - that seems like a prudent thing to do. If they don’t, that’s also fine with me.

 

[Gecklund]

But, they can.

But by the numbers no they can’t. Ferraro is a 7D by the numbers. Even if they are the Sharks have 3 other guys who again are not worse on the left side already.

 

[Sharkz4Fun]

Yea I dunno what to do about Ferraro. I'm ready to move on cuz he's getting beat like early season Benning every night but he's also young enough that he could turn it around even though it's probably not worth the trouble.

There's also the other wrinkle that we don't know what happens with Karlsson this summer. The defense was bad and depth was extremely shallow to begin with but it's gonna be so much worse without him. We might not be planning to gift spots to Thrun and Mukhamadullin but there might not be enough bodies on the back end to let them develop at their own pace.

They'd be smart to trade Ferraro, but depending on his value, I think he's *probably* worth keeping over Vlasic if Grier is reluctant to choose. Vlasic needs to go and they need to either bite the bullet and buy him out, or retain 2m or so for the next 3 years. Vlasic's clause moves into a 3 teamer this offseason and if none of the teams make sense, buy him out along with Labanc. Sharks won't be paying out any big contracts the next 3-4, so Grier needs to clean house as much as possible regardless of how much cap is eaten.

I know the Sharks defense is completely quantity over quality, but I'm not sure why Thrun, or any other player/prospect would want to sign here if they're already trying to beat out those two plugs. Factor in Muk, Knyzhov on the L side, it won't make sense if Grier plans to have both here next season.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

But by the numbers no they can’t. Ferraro is a 7D by the numbers. Even if they are the Sharks have 3 other guys who again are not worse on the left side already.

It is entirely possible that any or all of the prospects can play worse than Ferraro. Ferraro is not the worst defenseman to have ever played in the NHL. There’s always the possibility of more suck.

Also Jesus Christ, I’m done with the thread. If you want to continue making easily disputed absolute statements feel free.

 

[Pavelski2112]

It is entirely possible that any or all of the prospects can play worse than Ferraro. Ferraro is not the worst defenseman to have ever played in the NHL. There’s always the possibility of more suck.

This is absolutely true but it's not like he's good enough to not let the other youth D get an opportunity over him

 

[Juxtaposer]

Yea I dunno what to do about Ferraro. I'm ready to move on cuz he's getting beat like early season Benning every night but he's also young enough that he could turn it around even though it's probably not worth the trouble.

There's also the other wrinkle that we don't know what happens with Karlsson this summer. The defense was bad and depth was extremely shallow to begin with but it's gonna be so much worse without him. We might not be planning to gift spots to Thrun and Mukhamadullin but there might not be enough bodies on the back end to let them develop at their own pace.

Yeah, Karlsson staying or going will definitely be the X factor. If he does move, the defense might be something like:

Vlasic-Benning
Knyzhov-Simek
Ferraro-MacDonald
Pouliot

I specifically left off Thrun, Okhotiuk (whom I forgot in my original post), and Mukhamadullin, just to see if we could even fill out a roster without them. Obviously that’s a horrible group, but if we were to trade Karlsson probably an NHL defenseman in some capacity comes back, and/or there’s a UFA signing just to fill out the roster (especially if Simek is Done done).

I’m currently watching Thrun play for Harvard, and I think he’ll be in the NHL next season. He has set-him-and-forget-him-for-a-decade two-way #5D written all over him. Nothing special, not huge upside, but definitely an NHLer in some capacity. He’ll be 22.5 years old at the start of the season, I feel very comfortable with him in the lineup.

The slim chance that Ferraro will “turn it around” is the only reason he has any value at all, IMHO. I’d rather someone else take that chance than us. I think we have enough NHLers to fill out a roster without him, even with Karlsson moved, and Ferraro is bad enough that he would be easily replaceable in UFA if absolutely necessary.

 

[Gecklund]

It is entirely possible that any or all of the prospects can play worse than Ferraro. Ferraro is not the worst defenseman to have ever played in the NHL. There’s always the possibility of more suck.

Also Jesus Christ, I’m done with the thread. If you want to continue making easily disputed absolute statements feel free.

Okay dispute them because you haven’t. At all. You’re just sitting there with your finger up your butt saying that I’m wrong.

 

[Sharkz4Fun]

Vlasic-Benning
Knyzhov-Simek
Ferraro-MacDonald
Pouliot

Jesus christ that's horrific.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

This is absolutely true but it's not like he's good enough to not let the other youth D get an opportunity over him

Other than in Thrun’s case, where the team may make some assurances of playing time to secure his signing, I see no real reason to rush anyone along. Let the prospects show something at the AHL level first. In my opinion there’s not much to gain by just gifting them NHL playing time this season.

 

[Pavelski2112]

Other than in Thrun’s case, where the team may make some assurances of playing time to secure his signing, I see no real reason to rush anyone along. Let the prospects show something at the AHL level first. In my opinion there’s not much to gain by just gifting them NHL playing time this season.

This season? I can agree with that. But next season I'd like to see Okhotiuk and Thrun get some time, considering at least Ok already has NHL time up with the Devils and Thrun is already looking ready to get a shot.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

Okay dispute them because you haven’t. At all. You’re just sitting there with your finger up your butt saying that I’m wrong.

But by the numbers no they can’t. Ferraro is a 7D by the numbers. Even if they are the Sharks have 3 other guys who again are not worse on the left side already.

You say by the numbers they cannot be worse than Ferraro. This is an absolute statement of fact. Either it is 100% guaranteed they will play better than Ferraro or your statement is invalid. Since any reasonable person would understand that we cannot guarantee future results EVEN IF these player had an NHL track record, which they don’t - any reasonable person would understand that it is conceivable that they could play worse than Ferraro. /sniffs fingers - Point disputed.

Had you said something like “I think they would be better than Ferraro” or even “it’s likely they would be better than Ferraro” you’d then be making a subjective opinion. It’d still be debatable, but at least it couldn’t be dismissed as outright invalid.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

This season? I can agree with that. But next season I'd like to see Okhotiuk and Thrun get some time, considering at least Ok already has NHL time up with the Devils and Thrun is already looking ready to get a shot.

I, likewise, would love to see any number of our prospects, including Thrun, Okhotiuk, and Mukh get NHL looks next year. I’d love nothing more than any one one, if not multiple, of them making this whole Ferraro thread a moot point by them performing exceedingly better than Ferraro in camp, preseason, or via outstanding play in the AHL. If Ferraro is so bad, it shouldn’t be a hard bar to clear.

 

[Gecklund]

You say by the numbers they cannot be worse than Ferraro. This is an absolute statement of fact. Either it is 100% guaranteed they will play better than Ferraro or your statement is invalid. Since any reasonable person would understand that we cannot guarantee future results EVEN IF these player had an NHL track record, which they don’t - any reasonable person would understand that it is conceivable that they could play worse than Ferraro. /sniffs fingers - Point disputed.

Had you said something like “I think they would be better than Ferraro” or even “it’s likely they would be better than Ferraro” you’d then be making a subjective opinion. It’d still be debatable, but at least it couldn’t be dismissed as outright invalid.

You are VASTLY overrating Ferraro who has a negative corsi every year. Dude is bad. He is not an NHL level player. You can’t even use the off-side argument for him as he’s only played 25% of his shifts on the right. His QoC numbers are bad. He plays against third and fourth lines for the most part and gets CAVED. If he was so good as some of you claim, it doesn’t matter if his partner is anymore than an average 3rd pairing D. He should still win these matchups.

His “motor” is WHY he’s so bad. He is constantly out of position. He is constantly putting himself out of position. He needs a dman to baby sit him defensively like Karlsson does but doesn’t provide a shred of the offense that Karlsson does.

You’re right some of these guys might not be better than him but there isn’t really a way for them to be worse.

Just because you can’t read doesn’t mean I didn’t put numbers.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Not to mention...how many defensemen just in the history of the Sharks struggled at around this stage of their careers and managed to turn it around? Stuart, Murray, Hannan, Ehrhoff, Carle, Demers, DeMelo...it's clearly a common issue. Even players like Braun and Vlasic, who didn't exactly regress, weren't exactly progressing...

The last defenseman I can think of who didn't turn it around was Andrei Zyuzin.