Speculation: 2022-23 Sharks Roster Discussion Part 1

[weastern bias]

I don’t think that’s true. If we stood pat then we’re forcing some of the younger kids to play when they may not be ready. It’s clear there’s a long term plan for MG that involves not rushing anyone that doesn’t need to be rushed. It’s also probably why the team is stockpiling so many young goalies.

I wish I agreed there was any clear plan

I look at the moves this summer and see cognitive dissonance, a combination of moves looking to bolster the roster in an attempt to win now and moves looking to the future dumping aging talent in exchange for picks and prospects

When a team is doing both of these at the same time I don't see any clear plan whatsoever

 

[TheBeard]

I wish I agreed there was any clear plan

I look at the moves this summer and see cognitive dissonance, a combination of moves looking to bolster the roster in an attempt to win now and moves looking to the future dumping aging talent in exchange for picks and prospects

When a team is doing both of these at the same time I don't see any clear plan whatsoever

It was going to be impossible to overturn the roster in one off-season but from what I see he’s implementing a very gradual shift in culture based on who he brought in. We’re not gonna be a fun team to watch this season but we’re going to be a pain to play against.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Kunin, Benning, Sturm, Lorentz and Nutivaara all have varying levels of skill and roles but they are all established NHL players which forces young players from Eklund and Bordeleau on down to actually steal a job on the big club rather than have one gifted to them right out of the gate as the Sharks have been doing with their prospects for three years.

Personally I like four of those players and think they will provide a lot of what the Sharks have been lacking in their depth players for years, on and off the ice. Kunin seems pretty bad but he's also the youngest of the group by a fair margin with some pedigree and demonstrated scoring ability so for the price of a 3rd round pick I don't mind the gamble on untapped upside. I like locking him in for two years because it gives Grier control over the asset in case he does pot 20 goals in increased minutes.

Crucially, none of these guys will move the needle to the extent that the Sharks are no longer in lottery territory, which would be a legitimate concern of adding someone like Niederreiter. They all fill roles on the NHL club for now and can be easily moved on from down the road if younger players emerge.

So if I’m understanding you right, you want to have bad players, but players who are at least NHL bad and not literal scrubs, forcing that the Weatherbys of the org don’t get spots by default?

Okay, I get where you’re coming from here. We’ll have to agree to disagree with the Kunin thing though, that one stands out as truly the worst move Grier has made other than the 11th overall trade.

 

[weastern bias]

It was going to be impossible to overturn the roster in one off-season but from what I see he’s implementing a very gradual shift in culture based on who he brought in. We’re not gonna be a fun team to watch this season but we’re going to be a pain to play against.

The team culture is going to be influenced so much more by the top of the roster than the bottom

Couture, Karlsson, Vlasic, Hertl, Meier, those guys will dictate the culture, not Nico Sturm

If the plan really is to fix the culture I don't think these roster moves make any material difference

The one big move that has the potential to really shift those tides comes with the head coach, so it is possible, but as of right now we haven't changed our team culture in any meaningful way

So if I’m understanding you right, you want to have bad players, but players who are at least NHL bad and not literal scrubs, forcing that the Weatherbys of the org don’t get spots by default?

Okay, I get where you’re coming from here. We’ll have to agree to disagree with the Kunin thing though, that one stands out as truly the worst move Grier has made other than the 11th overall trade.

I also don't get the apprehension to playing scrub-tier scrubs if you want to tank

The 2023 Blackhawks and Coyotes will be stiff competition, if you want to finish last it will take some real effort, Luke Kunin just won't cut it in this year's tank-off

 

[TheBeard]

The team culture is going to be influenced so much more by the top of the roster than the bottom

Couture, Karlsson, Vlasic, Hertl, Meier, those guys will dictate the culture, not Nico Sturm

If the plan really is to fix the culture I don't think these roster moves make any material difference

The one big move that has the potential to really shift those tides comes with the head coach, so it is possible, but as of right now we haven't changed our team culture in any meaningful way

I do because all of those guys mentioned were here before Mike. The players he brings in whether via draft or FA exemplify the expectations he has from the players on the team. There’s nothing he can do about anyone else already here but I imagine if they don’t fit in with the type of teammate he’s looking for then he’d get rid of them if it were beneficial.

 

[CupfortheSharks]

Wasting all our capspace on unnecessary depth players also prevents us from taking on salary dumps in exchange for draft picks/prospects at the trade deadline

We wasted capspace in a flat cap environment on players that won't make a difference and committed to doing so for multiple seasons, these moves are bad

Mike doesn’t consider them “unnecessary depth players.” He is trying to change the culture. He brought in those players to help him do it. I have no doubt the new coaches will also be hired with that as their focus.

 

[Hodge]

So if I’m understanding you right, you want to have bad players, but players who are at least NHL bad and not literal scrubs, forcing that the Weatherbys of the org don’t get spots by default?

Okay, I get where you’re coming from here. We’ll have to agree to disagree with the Kunin thing though, that one stands out as truly the worst move Grier has made other than the 11th overall trade.

I mean if I was given full reign to run this team like NHL 22 franchise mode I would probably just promote Weatherby, Chmelevski, Reedy, Merkley, Hatakka etc to the roster full time to maximize the chances of drafting Bedard.

But since these are human beings I think there is value in building a new culture and identity by injecting respectable depth players into the mix. Blatantly tanking will not sit well with the unmovable veterans who are still here to stay and could turn the locker room even more toxic which is a bad environment to develop Eklund and the 2023 1st rounder in.

At the same time, making moves to legitimately improve like signing a Niederreiter or Burakovsky would be counterproductive and shortsighted so I am glad Grier didn’t go that route as much as ownership probably would have preferred it.

The trade down from 11th was objectively fantastic value based on all of the draft pick value charts.

 

[Alaskanice]

Mike doesn’t consider them “unnecessary depth players.” He is trying to change the culture. He brought in those players to help him do it. I have no doubt the new coaches will also be hired with that as their focus.

Well put.

 

[WTFetus]

Mike doesn’t consider them “unnecessary depth players.” He is trying to change the culture. He brought in those players to help him do it. I have no doubt the new coaches will also be hired with that as their focus.

What culture though? I don't consider players like Kunin or Sturm any harder to play against than the bought-out Balcers, other than the generic "they are bigger so they must be tougher to play against" argument. And I think that's been one of the frustrating parts of the off-season so far, that it appears Grier is stuck in the 90s hockey mentality.

 

[weastern bias]

What culture though? I don't consider players like Kunin or Sturm any harder to play against than the bought-out Balcers, other than the generic "they are bigger so they must be tougher to play against" argument. And I think that's been one of the frustrating parts of the off-season so far, that it appears Grier is stuck in the 90s hockey mentality.

What scared me about the Kunin move was the thought that Mike Grier's first move as GM was to add Mike Grier to the roster

A bottom-6 winger who can score a few goals, throw some hits and punch some faces but ultimate doesn't alter the outcome of games, but he paid a premium to get him even though his own team might have given him up for free

Rookies make mistakes, but that one seemed a little too obvious

 

[Alaskanice]

What seems to be overlooked us that some of these signings are to shore up the lower lines. Taking the PK from the top guys. These players layers are going to lessen the load for our top guys. I’d rather they get the goals.

 

[weastern bias]

I liked 34 better

 

[TheBeard]

What scared me about the Kunin move was the thought that Mike Grier's first move as GM was to add Mike Grier to the roster

A bottom-6 winger who can score a few goals, throw some hits and punch some faces but ultimate doesn't alter the outcome of games, but he paid a premium to get him even though his own team might have given him up for free

Rookies make mistakes, but that one seemed a little too obvious

Mike was a real good hockey player and I would be thrilled if Kunin turned into him.

 

[Barrie22]

What culture though? I don't consider players like Kunin or Sturm any harder to play against than the bought-out Balcers, other than the generic "they are bigger so they must be tougher to play against" argument. And I think that's been one of the frustrating parts of the off-season so far, that it appears Grier is stuck in the 90s hockey mentality.

Kunin had nearly double the amount of hits that leonard, balcers, dahlen had combined. Every time the other team touches the puck and they will be hit tires then out quicker then the drive bys that the 3 players removed would do. How you go an entire season as a winger and only have 16 hits is beyond me.

 

[WTFetus]

What seems to be overlooked us that some of these signings are to shore up the lower lines. Taking the PK from the top guys. These players layers are going to lessen the load for our top guys. I’d rather they get the goals.

Balcers had more SH TOI/GP than Kunin last season though.

Kunin had nearly double the amount of hits that leonard, balcers, dahlen had combined. Every time the other team touches the puck and they will be hit tires then out quicker then the drive bys that the 3 players removed would do. How you go an entire season as a winger and only have 16 hits is beyond me.

Kunin had 11.8 hits/60 compared to Balcers 7.5/60. And more hits don't always mean better, which goes back to the 90s hockey argument. It typically means your team doesn't have the puck. You know what else is hard to play against? Tiring the defense out by being in the offensive zone.

 

[Barrie22]

Balcers had more SH TOI/GP than Kunin last season though.


Kunin had 11.8 hits/60 compared to Balcers 7.5/60. And more hits don't always mean better, which goes back to the 90s hockey argument. It typically means your team doesn't have the puck. You know what else is hard to play against? Tiring the defense out by being in the offensive zone.

Something balcers and dahlen never did either. So if you are a dump and chase team, which the sharks were last year then your forwards better not be shying away from hitting.

 

[weastern bias]

Mike was a real good hockey player and I would be thrilled if Kunin turned into him.

Mike was a really good player

He also topped 40 points once and 20 goals twice

The point being, if I'm a rebuilding team, I'm not going out of my way to add that kind of player, I'm especially uninterested in paying assets to add that player when there's a chance he'll be an unqualified UFA if I wait an extra week

 

[Alaskanice]

Something balcers and dahlen never did either. So if you are a dump and chase team, which the sharks were last year then your forwards better not be shying away from hitting.

I was going to say the same thing.

 

[TheBeard]

Mike was a really good player

He also topped 40 points once and 20 goals twice

The point being, if I'm a rebuilding team, I'm not going out of my way to add that kind of player, I'm especially uninterested in paying assets to add that player when there's a chance he'll be an unqualified UFA if I wait an extra week

Fair enough.I do think age and potential played into that particular trade as well. If he never Pans out at worst he’s still got value on the ice

 

[Alaskanice]

Balcers had more SH TOI/GP than Kunin last season though.


Kunin had 11.8 hits/60 compared to Balcers 7.5/60. And more hits don't always mean better, which goes back to the 90s hockey argument. It typically means your team doesn't have the puck. You know what else is hard to play against? Tiring the defense out by being in the offensive zone.

I was not talking about Balcers. He isn’t on the team any longer. I’m talking about our top guys. Hertl, Meier and Couture. They shouldn’t spend time on the PK.

 

[WTFetus]

Something balcers and dahlen never did either. So if you are a dump and chase team, which the sharks were last year then your forwards better not be shying away from hitting.

So Kunin averages 1 more hit a game than Balcers, big whoop. And back when he was in a more offensive role in Minnesota which he might be here, he actually averaged even less than Balcers, at 3.9 hits/60. And Sturm isn't a heavy checker either. He actually has less Hits/60 averaged over the past 2 seasons than Balcers.

I was not talking about Balcers. He isn’t on the team any longer. I’m talking about our top guys. Hertl, Meier and Couture. They shouldn’t spend time on the PK.

You mentioned how signing these players will take away PK time from the Sharks top players. How does replacing one PKer with one who PKs even less help?

 

[Cas]

I was not talking about Balcers. He isn’t on the team any longer. I’m talking about our top guys. Hertl, Meier and Couture. They shouldn’t spend time on the PK.

Meier doesn't PK anyway. I think he got about 5 minutes last season.

You can run Bonino, Sturm, Kunin, Lindblom, and Nieto as your main forward penalty killers, assuming they're all in the lineup, but Couture and Hertl are still going to wind up with their fair share of short-handed minutes.

 

[Alaskanice]

Meier doesn't PK anyway. I think he got about 5 minutes last season.

You can run Bonino, Sturm, Kunin, Lindblom, and Nieto as your main forward penalty killers, assuming they're all in the lineup, but Couture and Hertl are still going to wind up with their fair share of short-handed minutes.

At least we can lessen their time. This is exactly why Bonino and Cogliano were brought in last season. They did their job. Same thing this year.

 

[Mattb124]

Kunin had nearly double the amount of hits that leonard, balcers, dahlen had combined. Every time the other team touches the puck and they will be hit tires then out quicker then the drive bys that the 3 players removed would do. How you go an entire season as a winger and only have 16 hits is beyond me.

The big knock I have read on Kunin is he tried to hard to hit and misses out on actual hockey plays. No bueno.

 

[weastern bias]

Kinda thought he would keep 78 after winning the cup

Keep the spirit of Benn Ferriero alive in your hearts